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Atheist morals?

bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:11:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

I do not get my sense of morals from a desire to gain eternal glory and benefits. My hope is to respect the inherent moral worth of all people and to serve all of humanity equally and unconditionally. This is not because I want salvation or because somebody told me to help others; rather, it is because I desire to protect the people. I am an independent being who is capable of rational thought.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:14:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:11:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

I do not get my sense of morals from a desire to gain eternal glory and benefits. My hope is to respect the inherent moral worth of all people and to serve all of humanity equally and unconditionally. This is not because I want salvation or because somebody told me to help others; rather, it is because I desire to protect the people. I am an independent being who is capable of rational thought.

You very well act in a moral way, but there is no reason for you to judge anyone elses actions wrong and hold someone accountable. Without god, you can just say what you think is right and have no standard to say what is right and wrong for others.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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12/21/2011 10:15:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/21/2011 10:16:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

Did God tell you his morals, or did other men just tell you what Gods morals are ?

Did God tell you abortion is wrong or did man ?

Did God tell you creating a welfare state is wrong or did man ?

Did God tell you slavery is wrong or did man ?

Did God tell you you shouldn't teach evolution in schools or did man ?

Did God tell you you shouldn't go around hunting witches or did man ?

Did God tell you not to kill people just because they don't believe that God exists or did man ?

Did God tell you racism is wrong or did man ?

You mean we can just make up moral claims and hide behind God as our justification ? Brilliant, hopefully no one else catches on to this.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
CrimsonTokala
Posts: 61
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12/21/2011 10:17:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
: At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

Atheists are people too, they feel empathy. Empathy is the foundation of knowing right from wrong.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:17:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:15:59 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, I have heard of that but that discounts the fact that something such as cannibalism is wrong. God commands us not to kill. As an atheist are you willing to say that cannibalism is ok for a society that accepts it?
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:21:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It seems to me atheist just want an excuse to do what they want and want to say whatever they want to do is moral and have no basis whatsoever to be accountable.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/21/2011 10:21:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm kind of an atheist, and this talk about atheists having no morals is absurd. God is not the only place where a human being can derive morals. I, for example, have an intrinsic value of what is right and what is wrong, according to my own beliefs. Sure, they might not be accepted by everybody, but I do have my own set of morals. However, instead of acquiring them from a supernatural and illogical being, I acquire them from within myself.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:22:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:14:50 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:11:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

I do not get my sense of morals from a desire to gain eternal glory and benefits. My hope is to respect the inherent moral worth of all people and to serve all of humanity equally and unconditionally. This is not because I want salvation or because somebody told me to help others; rather, it is because I desire to protect the people. I am an independent being who is capable of rational thought.

You very well act in a moral way, but there is no reason for you to judge anyone elses actions wrong and hold someone accountable. Without god, you can just say what you think is right and have no standard to say what is right and wrong for others.

Of course I can, because I would expect the same treatment from others that I give to them. If I treat everyone equally, then I deserve the same treatment because everyone is equal. The argument that I cannot judge others is ludicrous because the standard that I hold myself to is the standard that, according to my views, I have to hold others to as well.

Your God has a shady sense of morality, by the way. Are you planning on selling your daughter into slavery to fetch a good price? Will you suffer a "witch" to live? Next time you see a farm, make sure to stone him to death if he grows two different crops side by side, and never wear cloth that was woven with two threads.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:23:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
By the way, if you really are as Christian as you claim, then your accountability argument is hypocritical because you are not supposed to judge others. I have read the Gospels of Luke and John, so I know this to be true.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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12/21/2011 10:24:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:17:55 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:15:59 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, I have heard of that but that discounts the fact that something such as cannibalism is wrong. God commands us not to kill. As an atheist are you willing to say that cannibalism is ok for a society that accepts it?

....Should I have the right to challenge and criticize a norm of a culture, and impose my ideas and values on theirs?....No imo.

Should I judge the morality of a custom based on my values??? No.

The answer is no, though from a wholly philosophical standpoint.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:25:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:21:59 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'm kind of an atheist, and this talk about atheists having no morals is absurd. God is not the only place where a human being can derive morals. I, for example, have an intrinsic value of what is right and what is wrong, according to my own beliefs. Sure, they might not be accepted by everybody, but I do have my own set of morals. However, instead of acquiring them from a supernatural and illogical being, I acquire them from within myself.

That is exactly my point, many atheist try to be good people, but they have nothing that they can say to someone who does something evil, but that person says they did the right thing. That person was just acting moral in there world and we know from god that just isn't so.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

No, I am saying it is moral because it is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from philosophy. All life is equally meaningless, so it is immoral to assert dominance over any other living creature. If this is true, then all creatures merit equal treatment and should be judged according to equal standards.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:37:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:36:16 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

No, I am saying it is moral because it is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from philosophy. All life is equally meaningless, so it is immoral to assert dominance over any other living creature. If this is true, then all creatures merit equal treatment and should be judged according to equal standards.

So it would be equally moral to treat animals with no respect as it is meaningless in your view then?
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:40:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:37:51 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:36:16 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

No, I am saying it is moral because it is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from philosophy. All life is equally meaningless, so it is immoral to assert dominance over any other living creature. If this is true, then all creatures merit equal treatment and should be judged according to equal standards.

So it would be equally moral to treat animals with no respect as it is meaningless in your view then?

I am also confused if a person was driving and saw an ant and a human and could choose to hit either, neither is more valuable so a person who said well I didn't want to kill an ant would be in the same standing as a person who chose to kill the ant?
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/21/2011 10:42:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Divine command theory is just one of the many moral theories floating around. There's the atheistic utilitarianism which operates on the principle of utility, nothing about God. There's atheistic Objectivism, atheistic altrusm, atheistic egoism, atheistic Kantianism, atheistic pragmatism, atheistic virtue ethic, you get the idea.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:43:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:37:51 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:36:16 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

No, I am saying it is moral because it is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from philosophy. All life is equally meaningless, so it is immoral to assert dominance over any other living creature. If this is true, then all creatures merit equal treatment and should be judged according to equal standards.

So it would be equally moral to treat animals with no respect as it is meaningless in your view then?

No, animals are also living creatures and deserve to be treated with respect.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:43:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:40:42 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:37:51 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:36:16 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

No, I am saying it is moral because it is the only logical conclusion that I can draw from philosophy. All life is equally meaningless, so it is immoral to assert dominance over any other living creature. If this is true, then all creatures merit equal treatment and should be judged according to equal standards.

So it would be equally moral to treat animals with no respect as it is meaningless in your view then?

I am also confused if a person was driving and saw an ant and a human and could choose to hit either, neither is more valuable so a person who said well I didn't want to kill an ant would be in the same standing as a person who chose to kill the ant?

That example is ludicrous. First, it is impossible to see an ant on the road while one is driving. Second, both are equally valuable; to say otherwise is specist. At that point, fate should be left to decide the outcome.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/21/2011 10:43:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 9:49:48 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
As a christian, I know I get my morals from god and have a way to determine right and wrong. It seems to me atheist don't have anyway to determine if something is right or wrong. I want to hear how atheists are moral?

My morals come from society and myself.

At 12/21/2011 10:25:31 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
That is exactly my point, many atheist try to be good people, but they have nothing that they can say to someone who does something evil, but that person says they did the right thing. That person was just acting moral in there world and we know from god that just isn't so.

If you had the ability to see Moses, and his order of raping the young virgin women after battle, would you tell him that he is doing evil?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:49:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.

I am trying to let you know how god sees things and how you should act according. I am not the one going to judge you, you must make up your mind if you want to walk the right path with god.

I hope you find the path soon as saying an ant and human are on the same level is not right. Ants are not gods chosen being.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:51:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:49:24 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.

I am trying to let you know how god sees things and how you should act according. I am not the one going to judge you, you must make up your mind if you want to walk the right path with god.

I hope you find the path soon as saying an ant and human are on the same level is not right. Ants are not gods chosen being.

Who would you know that? For someone who claims to love God's creation, you seem to take a strong disliking for the lives of other forms of life.
bigbob91
Posts: 132
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12/21/2011 10:55:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:51:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:49:24 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.

I am trying to let you know how god sees things and how you should act according. I am not the one going to judge you, you must make up your mind if you want to walk the right path with god.

I hope you find the path soon as saying an ant and human are on the same level is not right. Ants are not gods chosen being.

Who would you know that? For someone who claims to love God's creation, you seem to take a strong disliking for the lives of other forms of life.

I love all of gods creatures and don't wish death on any of them, it is just that humans are what god created in his image and you are treating us just like animals.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/21/2011 10:55:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:34:20 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:31:25 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, are you going to ignore my two posts, Bob? I guess that means that you concede to them. Glad to know that you are a reasonable person who knows when to give up.

I am not judging, I am just trying to understand and explain how I see what it seems like you are saying. You are saying that it is moral because I feel it is moral right and there is no other reason to find it moral then because you think so.

If you are serious about this Bob and not been the typical knuckle dragging evangelical christian who like to feel good about themselves point the finger at atheists just want to sin herp derp and there is no morality without God herp derp then I would highly suggest the debate between Sam Harris & William Craig.

Craig argues divine command theory, God is the standard of good, objective moral values, obligations etc etc are from God. No objective values without God.

Sam Harris argues from the axiom of human well being is good and God is not necessary to establish that.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/21/2011 10:58:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:55:04 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:51:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:49:24 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.

I am trying to let you know how god sees things and how you should act according. I am not the one going to judge you, you must make up your mind if you want to walk the right path with god.

I hope you find the path soon as saying an ant and human are on the same level is not right. Ants are not gods chosen being.

Who would you know that? For someone who claims to love God's creation, you seem to take a strong disliking for the lives of other forms of life.

I love all of gods creatures and don't wish death on any of them, it is just that humans are what god created in his image and you are treating us just like animals.

Is there something wrong with other animals? I find this display of specism shockingly disgusting and hypocritical. What is wrong with treating all of life well? Why do some organisms deserve better treatment than others?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/21/2011 11:00:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:25:31 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:21:59 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'm kind of an atheist, and this talk about atheists having no morals is absurd. God is not the only place where a human being can derive morals. I, for example, have an intrinsic value of what is right and what is wrong, according to my own beliefs. Sure, they might not be accepted by everybody, but I do have my own set of morals. However, instead of acquiring them from a supernatural and illogical being, I acquire them from within myself.

That is exactly my point, many atheist try to be good people, but they have nothing that they can say to someone who does something evil, but that person says they did the right thing. That person was just acting moral in there world and we know from god that just isn't so.

No... I do have something inside me to tell evil from good. The fact that I don't have an external force "enlighten" me, makes my own beliefs stronger. It reinforces them without the need of other affirmation.
Morality is not completely subjective. I subscribe to moral nihilism, which states that morality is defined by society. This, in essence, does promote "god" type objective morality because there will be some principles which a just society always follows. Murder will always be wrong, as well as rape, stealing, etc....
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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12/21/2011 11:03:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/21/2011 10:55:04 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:51:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:49:24 PM, bigbob91 wrote:
At 12/21/2011 10:44:43 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
You still have not responded to my point about how hypocritical the accountability argument is because you are religiously barred from judging the actions of others.

I am trying to let you know how god sees things and how you should act according. I am not the one going to judge you, you must make up your mind if you want to walk the right path with god.

I hope you find the path soon as saying an ant and human are on the same level is not right. Ants are not gods chosen being.

Who would you know that? For someone who claims to love God's creation, you seem to take a strong disliking for the lives of other forms of life.

I love all of gods creatures and don't wish death on any of them, it is just that humans are what god created in his image and you are treating us just like animals.

Does that give humans the ultimate right to decide which animal live and die? Last I checked, "Do not Kill" was one of the commandment.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."