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I Am God

Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
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12/25/2011 8:29:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Within that aquarium I have a number of species of tropical fish.
It caused me much labor and great expense to "create" and maintain an environment that "my" fish can comfortably exist in.
Everything in their lives is dependent upon me. (food, temperature conditions, ph balance, light cycles, properly filtered air to breath, removal of toxins, everything.

I love my fish very much.
As far as the fish are concerned, I am God.
I have left it up to the fish to decide how they choose to run their affairs.
If one or more of the residences of my aquarium become aggressive towards one or more of the other fish. I am displeased, and I banish the offender to hell (separation from God. = <Back to the fish store.>)

What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)

And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?
Just curious.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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12/25/2011 8:32:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 8:29:22 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Within that aquarium I have a number of species of tropical fish.
It caused me much labor and great expense to "create" and maintain an environment that "my" fish can comfortably exist in.
Everything in their lives is dependent upon me. (food, temperature conditions, ph balance, light cycles, properly filtered air to breath, removal of toxins, everything.

I love my fish very much.
As far as the fish are concerned, I am God.
I have left it up to the fish to decide how they choose to run their affairs.
If one or more of the residences of my aquarium become aggressive towards one or more of the other fish. I am displeased, and I banish the offender to hell (separation from God. = <Back to the fish store.>)

What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)

And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?
Just curious.

If your God i'm Charles Darwin.
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/25/2011 8:41:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If your God i'm Charles Darwin.

Thank you Charles Darwin.
Your response reveals much more about yourself than you may realize.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/25/2011 9:00:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
From a Christian perspective,
1: Did you make the fish in your image? Did you give them souls? Minds? Self Awareness?
2: Do they have a dispute with you?
3: Did you divide your essence to become a fish, to mediate that dispute?
4: Did you create them for your pleasure? or create them to settle a dispute with a neighbor?
5: Is your purpose in interacting with them so they know what true wholesomeness is?
6: Do the fish sin?
7: Do you assert authority over them?
8: Are you good (subsequent actual definition of God includes his nature of perfect goodness, other wise you are just a powerful creator and not God.)

I could go on...
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/25/2011 9:14:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 9:00:48 PM, Gileandos wrote:
From a Christian perspective,
1: Did you make the fish in your image? Did you give them souls? Minds? Self Awareness?

By this criterion, God wouldn't be the creator of non-humans such as lizards or parakeets. Christianity teaches that only humans were made in God's image and orthodox dogma states that only humans have souls.

2: Do they have a dispute with you?

Same point as 1.

3: Did you divide your essence to become a fish, to mediate that dispute?

I think there's still time for him to do it anytime in the future. After all God waited a few thousand years (YEC version) before he sent Jesus to be crucified.

4: Did you create them for your pleasure? or create them to settle a dispute with a neighbor?

Did God do any of these? I say he made them so that he might share his love with them.

5: Is your purpose in interacting with them so they know what true wholesomeness is?

Is that a sexual comment?

6: Do the fish sin?

This same critique can be sent to God as well. Is God not God because fish don't sin?

7: Do you assert authority over them?

Hell yeah. He who controls the fish food controls the fish.

8: Are you good (subsequent actual definition of God includes his nature of perfect goodness, other wise you are just a powerful creator and not God.)

Most likely just a narcisist.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/25/2011 9:46:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thank you for your kind response Gileandos

At 12/25/2011 9:00:48 PM, Gileandos wrote:

From a Christian perspective,

1: Did you make the fish in your image? Did you give them souls? Minds? Self Awareness?

Nope: I didn't make the fish in my image. If I had it would probably make me look a bit narcissistic to all the other "gods", and even to the fish come to think of it.
And to give them souls, minds, and self awareness, would be easy to do for a God being as Gods can do anything. ( even make difficult tasks easy.)
And had I did make them in my image, give them souls, minds, and self awareness. and gave them all these wonderful "Gifts" isn't that saying that my "Gifts come with a condition? What kind of people give gifts with the expectation of something in return? (even if it is just appreciation or worse yet praise?)

2: Do they have a dispute with you?
Whether my fish have a dispute with me is irrelevant to how I feel about them.
Even if my fish were to hate me. that would be no reason for me to hate them.

3: Did you divide your essence to become a fish, to mediate that dispute?

No, I employ the "free will" principle for the fish to resolve their own disputes.
and if I were to divide my essence to become a fish, to mediate that disputes, it would still be out of my love for the fish, and my love for them is not dependent on their love for me.

4: Did you create them for your pleasure? or create them to settle a dispute with a neighbor?

No disputes with any neighbors, so it must of been solely for my pleasure.

5: Is your purpose in interacting with them so they know what true wholesomeness is?

I've chosen to step back and let them find wholesomeness on their own.
once again, it's the "free will" thing. I wouldn't want them to be wholesome like robots ya know. only through them coming to wholesomeness on their own without any "proof" in me can I truly be sure they are wholesome for wholesome s sake, and not any promise of a guaranteed reward from knowing for sure a reward awaits them. And if they were not to find wholesomeness, that would not be cause for me not to love them. (even if they hated me.)

6: Do the fish sin?

I'm pretty sure they fornicate outside of marriage

7: Do you assert authority over them?

Yes, when one becomes aggressive he goes to hell (seperation from God = back to the fish store)

8: Are you good (subsequent actual definition of God includes his nature of perfect goodness, other wise you are just a powerful creator and not God.)

Well, I do everything possible to insure their happiness, and I don't arbitrarily punish any of the offspring for their ancestors sins . (one of my Lionfish stung me while cleaning the tank once. but I forgave him.)


I could go on...

I would welcome you to go on. I am genuinely waiting for you to respond to the question though. it seems you didn't respond to the questions "What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)
And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?" It seems as though you were implying that a perfect loving God has strings attached to that perfect love. (ie. I divided my essence, made you a soul etc.) and that the gifts he gives come with a requirement that one praise him for those gifts. Is that what you were trying to say?
I'm interested in hearing what you have to say in this matter.
Thanks.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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12/26/2011 8:21:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 8:15:12 AM, leah12 wrote:
it would say you dont seem to realize that fish dont have minds and wills
and you didnt create them

But he controls the "universe" which they inhabit; I think that alone-universe control-is a qualification to be a "god" per se.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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12/26/2011 9:39:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Technically, under some definitions of god, you could be considered one.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/26/2011 11:19:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 8:29:22 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Within that aquarium I have a number of species of tropical fish.
It caused me much labor and great expense to "create" and maintain an environment that "my" fish can comfortably exist in.
Everything in their lives is dependent upon me. (food, temperature conditions, ph balance, light cycles, properly filtered air to breath, removal of toxins, everything.

I love my fish very much.
As far as the fish are concerned, I am God.
I have left it up to the fish to decide how they choose to run their affairs.
If one or more of the residences of my aquarium become aggressive towards one or more of the other fish. I am displeased, and I banish the offender to hell (separation from God. = <Back to the fish store.>)

What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)

And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?
Just curious.

Did you create the fish in your own self image? Are they your sons and daughters?

God loves all of us and wants us to chart the correct course, back to him for eternity. That includes those who do not worship him, he still loves them. Because he loves all of us so much; is why he wants us to follow his course. If we follow his course we will have the best life and eternity. Is it not a good parents goal to guide their children to a good life? Just looking at parents, teaches us a lot about God. God is love, parents are love!
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/26/2011 11:24:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 9:14:26 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 12/25/2011 9:00:48 PM, Gileandos wrote:
From a Christian perspective,
1: Did you make the fish in your image? Did you give them souls? Minds? Self Awareness?

By this criterion, God wouldn't be the creator of non-humans such as lizards or parakeets. Christianity teaches that only humans were made in God's image and orthodox dogma states that only humans have souls.

Correct, however, it is clear the OP is looking at his fish, like God looks at people. God is the creator of all things, including the animals you listed. But his main purpose is to have his children return to him. It is not to have all animals return to him.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/26/2011 12:29:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dear Friends,

With all due respect, it appears that some of you are missing the point.
I've made my query in the form of a parable. (like someone else used to do, to make a larger point through analogy.)

The responses by some completely miss the heart of the issue.
I make no accusations as to why, and I mean no disrespect when I say, "I think I need to dumb this question down a little bit in order to get a direct answer.

I ask not, in order to get someone to change their mind, but to get someone to change my mind. And if one can not answer the question, they have to ask themselves, Why?

So lets try this again:

If Love is perfect. It comes without strings.
Unconditional love means just that. it comes without conditions.
Love can not include selfishness.
If god has and is Perfect love
How can this perfect love come with the condition of praise?
Praise is a form of appreciation (so to speak)
If I love you, my love is not dependent on you appreciating my love.
and If I were to give you a gift, any further rewards that I may have for you are not dependent an whether you appreciate that gift, If I do indeed love you unconditionally.
Thats what love is, it's a gift.
people that give gifts with the expectation of something in return do not do so out of love.
Therefore: How ca you qualify Gods love as perfect?

I respectfully await your well thought out and reasoned response.

Thank you.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/26/2011 3:59:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Bud,
I hope you realize I was attempting to relay to you through a more socratic method the concept of God Theology spans a bit more than the fish tank analogy. Such an analogy only would indicate selfish pleasure, a bad form of a power trip or at best a mere creator.
As my last question indicated a super powerful creator does not indicate God.

I agree with the concept above that authority might make you a little god.

I will address your points below.

You are using non-theological definitions.

At 12/26/2011 12:29:47 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:

If Love is perfect. It comes without strings.
Unconditional love means just that. it comes without conditions.

God has impersonal love not unconditional. Unless you are asserting just a god that is not the Christian God.
I also am able to have impersonal love for the homeless man down the street. I offer my care for his needs, my sympathy and compassion. That does not mean should he attack me that there will not be consequences.
Impersonal love is for the good inside of people, stated another way, Impersonal love is for the people they 'should be'.
If they reject the goodness, I cannot give them that impersonal love. I can only give them punishment for their decisions.
If the homeless man rapes children he will only see a meager portion of the impersonal love I have for him. Punishment will be the only thing in his purview.
It is not ingratitude for my impersonal love that I gifted the homeless man I am punishing, but rejection of the goodness that should be chosen by him that I am punishing.

Love can not include selfishness.

Love can in fact be a psycho selfish love. I will assume you are referring to a type of divine love?

If god has and is Perfect love
How can this perfect love come with the condition of praise?
Praise is a form of appreciation (so to speak)

Again, Gods love is "agape" or impersonal for all mankind. A personal love is extended to those who respond to God's character by becoming "like" God. It is an impersonal love for the type of persons they should be or could be.
It is the reason that Jesus came on the cross to change the people back to the good by showing them the light.
Love is patient but not infinite.

If I love you, my love is not dependent on you appreciating my love.
and If I were to give you a gift, any further rewards that I may have for you are not dependent an whether you appreciate that gift, If I do indeed love you unconditionally.

That may be true for you, but it is not true of God or how even human's function.
I can show my impersonal love to Hitler. I can be patient with him and try to teach him how to be good.
When he spurns (not my love) my goodness and wholesomeness.
What was the net result of my affections for a dedicated man to evil?

Thats what love is, it's a gift.
People that give gifts with the expectation of something in return do not do so out of love.
Therefore: How ca you qualify Gods love as perfect?

I know that Jesus incarnation and role as a mediator is a gift; His loving sacrifice for all people is a gift....
I would not be so pretentious to assume God's love is an irrevocable gift, as you seem to be suggesting.

God's love is what he has for us. Nothing logically follows that his love, or any human display of love, is irrevocable or must be without conditions.

For the Christian all of God's promises dwell in a single concept. Repentance.

Those who deny the goodness God placed in them will not see the ‘goodness' of God, but the judgment of God.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/26/2011 4:04:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can't call yourself God unless you torture the fish who don't believe in you, or commit genocide on all the clownfish.
UnStupendousMan
Posts: 3,475
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12/26/2011 4:13:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 4:04:31 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
You can't call yourself God unless you torture the fish who don't believe in you, or commit genocide on all the clownfish.

[facepalm]
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/26/2011 4:42:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@tyler90az I appreciate your well thought out response.
I will attempt to address your positions thoughtfully.

Did you create the fish in your own self image? Are they your sons and daughters?

This appears to be irrelevant.
Sacrifices made in the gift of love are not prerequisites for any sort of reciprocation

God loves all of us and wants us to chart the correct course, back to him for eternity. That includes those who do not worship him, he still loves them.

The "Correct course" you suggest is "Praise", for the road back to him comes only through praise, (and actions and/or beliefs depending on witch particular denomination you belong to, but praise is a prerequisite in all denominations as far as I know)
And the "Back to him" part is self serving on his behalf. (gets to keep near him that which he loves).
and for those who do not pay the prerequisite "Praise", they are abandoned.

Because he loves all of us so much; is why he wants us to follow his course.

This course is of course the road that leads back to him. In other words, I love you and want you to be close to me forever. but if you don't love me, you will burn in a lake of fire. (I mean, thats how it works isn't it?)

If we follow his course we will have the best life and eternity.

Once again, irrelevant. if "best life and eternity" are dependent on reciprocation, that is not an example of perfect love. (sorry, but it isn't.)

Is it not a good parents goal to guide their children to a good life? Just looking at parents, teaches us a lot about God. God is love, parents are love!

Good parents welcome and encourage their children to go out in the world and and pursue what brings them happiness. to discourage that pursuit by saying, "I fed and clothed you, and put a roof over your head and loved you, and you can not find this kind of love anywhere else is why I am requiring you to forsake education, employment, and self determination and live with me for the rest of your life, or I will disown you.

I welcome your input on where you disagree on these premises.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/26/2011 6:39:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Gileandos

Excellent post. I would like to think that you welcome my response.

At 12/26/2011 3:59:58 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Bud,
Such an analogy only would indicate selfish pleasure, a bad form of a power trip or at best a mere creator.

You are of course correct.

As my last question indicated a super powerful creator does not indicate God.

I'll take your word for it. but I think we both kinda know the God were referring to is Abrahamic God.

I agree with the concept above that authority might make you a little god.

The (probably less than fully effective) (side)-point I was making was, that as far as the fish are concerned, I Am God (hence the title of the thread)

You are using non-theological definitions.

Here's the problem with that. "theological definitions" are not bound by logic or reason, they are only bound by faith.
And for us to live in a world where all actions and reactions must be dictated by reason and logic to insure a predictable and realistic desired outcome, we need to base our reasoning on something that is based on logic and not faith.

God has impersonal love not unconditional. Unless you are asserting just a god that is not the Christian God.

I'm not quite sure where in the bible I read that God's love is impersonal. I would welcome you to share that with me.
And if what you say is true, "God's love is not unconditional" that kind of negates Christianity's "Selling points" doesn't it? The Christianity that I know invites new members through the promise of forgiveness of ones sin's, no matter what the sin may be (with one minor exception). Think of the whole message behind the song amazing grace. (it doesn't matter how much of a wretch you are, you will be forgiven.) Thats an example of implying, unconditional love.
But the semantics here are the implication that Gods love is "impersonal" coming from what is defined as a personal God. Not to mention that the theological arguments for Gods existence is that his love is perfect. and by my understanding, "Impersonal love" falls short of "Perfect love".

I also am able to have impersonal love for the homeless man down the street. I offer my care for his needs, my sympathy and compassion. That does not mean should he attack me that there will not be consequences.

Good response, but poor analogy, Consequences based on love would be to take measures that the perpetrator not take those actions again. and remember this is a god that says it 's totally OK to attack you as long as he repents, God will forgive him regardless if you forgive him or not. the attacker can still get into heaven.
Not to mention, that you also do not have a personal relationship with the homeless man down the street the way God has with all his children. in Gods eyes he is one of his children as well. (as long as he repents, meaning appreciates gods love through praise, repentance, etc. prerequisites in order to receive that gift of love)

Impersonal love is for the good inside of people, stated another way, Impersonal love is for the people they 'should be'.

Sounds like that definition falls short of perfect love.
In that example, if my child is not the person I feel he "Should be" he somehow gets less than my 100% love. that my love for him is dependent on what I think he should be? I'm reasonably sure there are many Christians that would feel differently about that assertion.

If they reject the goodness, I cannot give them that impersonal love.

Why not?

I can only give them punishment for their decisions.

There are other options besides punishment

If the homeless man rapes children he will only see a meager portion of the impersonal love I have for him.

That may be true, but but as far as God is concerned, all he has to do is ask for forgiveness, and repent. (as well as the prerequisite believe, praise, etc.)

Punishment will be the only thing in his purview.

Incorrect

It is not ingratitude for my impersonal love that I gifted the homeless man I am punishing, but rejection of the goodness that should be chosen by him that I am punishing.

Incorrect, he gets the reward of forgiveness and everlasting life in heaven if he follows the prerequisites for gods love (faith, repentance etc.)

Love can not include selfishness.

Love can in fact be a psycho selfish love. I will assume you are referring to a type of divine love?

Psycho selfish love is not love, that is a word used to define something else.
The opposite of love is not hate, it is selfishness.

Again, Gods love is "agape" or impersonal for all mankind.

This statement goes against Christian dogma.
Remember the selling points?, God is a personal God?

A personal love is extended to those who respond to God's character by becoming "like" God.

This statement declares that Gods love comes with strings attached. Theres simply no way to get around that.
For me or you or anyone else to love one of their children, only if they do as I say, is something short of what real love truly is.
Why would God be held to a different standard?

It is an impersonal love for the type of persons they should be or could be.

See earlier points

It is the reason that Jesus came on the cross to change the people back to the good by showing them the light.

Incorrect: Jesus died on the cross to pay for all of mankind's sins. (even the homeless man down the street that attacked you) It was an act of saying, "you are loved no matter what you do, and I forgive you" (that pretty much equates to unconditional love) but theirs an untold clause in there that excludes you from forgiveness if you don't appreciate Gods love. which falls short of the promise of unconditional love that is implied.

Love is patient but not infinite.

Not according to Christian dogma.

If I love you, my love is not dependent on you appreciating my love.
and If I were to give you a gift, any further rewards that I may have for you are not dependent an whether you appreciate that gift, If I do indeed love you unconditionally.

That may be true for you, but it is not true of God

So your saying that God's love is less than perfect?

or how even human's function.

Incorrect: mother Theressa would have something to say about that

I can show my impersonal love to Hitler. I can be patient with him and try to teach him how to be good.

Even Hitler is guaranteed a place in heaven if he were to of repented.

When he spurns (not my love) my goodness and wholesomeness.
What was the net result of my affections for a dedicated man to evil?

A guaranteed place in heaven if he repented before his death.

Thats what love is, it's a gift.
People that give gifts with the expectation of something in return do not do so out of love.
Therefore: How ca you qualify Gods love as perfect?

I would not be so pretentious to assume God's love is an irrevocable gift, as you seem to be suggesting.

Thats not what I am suggesting, I'm with you on this one.
If you don't give me something in return for what I've given you, my love is revoked.

God's love is what he has for us. Nothing logically follows that his love, or any human display of love, is irrevocable or must be without conditions.

Incorrect: If your saying that to live "Forever in the kingdom of heaven" is not logically implying irrevocable love. you are mistaken. you are also using the logic that is outside non-theological definitions to do so I might add.

For the Christian all of God's promises dwell in a single concept. Repentance.

Correct: Repentance, the paying back of appreciation for gods love

Those who deny the goodness God placed in them will not see the ‘goodness' of God, but the judgment of God.

Seems God is held to a different standard of morals than the rest of us doesn't it?
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/26/2011 6:48:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 8:29:22 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Within that aquarium I have a number of species of tropical fish.
It caused me much labor and great expense to "create" and maintain an environment that "my" fish can comfortably exist in.
Everything in their lives is dependent upon me. (food, temperature conditions, ph balance, light cycles, properly filtered air to breath, removal of toxins, everything.

I love my fish very much.
As far as the fish are concerned, I am God.
I have left it up to the fish to decide how they choose to run their affairs.
If one or more of the residences of my aquarium become aggressive towards one or more of the other fish. I am displeased, and I banish the offender to hell (separation from God. = <Back to the fish store.>)

What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)

And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?
Just curious.

Hello, Poseidon. I am Zeus. Long time no see, brother.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/26/2011 7:09:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/25/2011 8:29:22 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
I have a 55 gallon aquarium.
Within that aquarium I have a number of species of tropical fish.
It caused me much labor and great expense to "create" and maintain an environment that "my" fish can comfortably exist in.
Everything in their lives is dependent upon me. (food, temperature conditions, ph balance, light cycles, properly filtered air to breath, removal of toxins, everything.

I love my fish very much.
As far as the fish are concerned, I am God.
I have left it up to the fish to decide how they choose to run their affairs.
If one or more of the residences of my aquarium become aggressive towards one or more of the other fish. I am displeased, and I banish the offender to hell (separation from God. = <Back to the fish store.>)

What would it say about me if I were to be displeased that my fish did not "worship me"? (or show any sort of appreciation at all?)

And why would your answer be different if it pertained to any other particular God?
Just curious.

I find it interesting that the first thing you consider when pondering the extend of your responsibility to these animals is the rights it affords to you from them.

I think a better question is, how do we compare with our expectation of a sovereign God when considering matters under which we have similar dominion?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/26/2011 7:11:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 6:39:16 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
Seems God is held to a different standard of morals than the rest of us doesn't it?

Indeed. Why, if He were us, He'd probably commit all his time trying to figure out how to best exploit us to make money off of other gods.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/26/2011 8:22:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 4:42:40 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
@tyler90az I appreciate your well thought out response.
I will attempt to address your positions thoughtfully.

Did you create the fish in your own self image? Are they your sons and daughters?

This appears to be irrelevant.
Sacrifices made in the gift of love are not prerequisites for any sort of reciprocation

Were you not comparing yourself to God? If you were, that is very relevant, as that plays a big part in what God does.

God loves all of us and wants us to chart the correct course, back to him for eternity. That includes those who do not worship him, he still loves them.

The "Correct course" you suggest is "Praise", for the road back to him comes only through praise, (and actions and/or beliefs depending on witch particular denomination you belong to, but praise is a prerequisite in all denominations as far as I know)
And the "Back to him" part is self serving on his behalf. (gets to keep near him that which he loves).
and for those who do not pay the prerequisite "Praise", they are abandoned.

We are not necessarily commanded to praise God; rather we are commanded to love God. If you love God with all your heart everything else becomes easy. Praise really has nothing to do with salvation. Grace and works are what help us return to God with the most glory.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Because he loves all of us so much; is why he wants us to follow his course.

This course is of course the road that leads back to him. In other words, I love you and want you to be close to me forever. but if you don't love me, you will burn in a lake of fire. (I mean, thats how it works isn't it?)

That is the interesting thing about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe in the kingdoms of glory. God is a loving God, he will give many opportunities to return on to him.

Telestial:
http://lds.org...
Terrestrial:
http://lds.org...
Celestial:
http://lds.org...

If we follow his course we will have the best life and eternity.

Once again, irrelevant. if "best life and eternity" are dependent on reciprocation, that is not an example of perfect love. (sorry, but it isn't.)

We are set to receive a body and be tested. Most people return to a glory that is better then earth. However, the truly righteous, the saints of God, will return and live with him.

It is not about praising him.

Is it not a good parents goal to guide their children to a good life? Just looking at parents, teaches us a lot about God. God is love, parents are love!

Good parents welcome and encourage their children to go out in the world and and pursue what brings them happiness. to discourage that pursuit by saying, "I fed and clothed you, and put a roof over your head and loved you, and you can not find this kind of love anywhere else is why I am requiring you to forsake education, employment, and self determination and live with me for the rest of your life, or I will disown you.

God loves us so much that he has given us free will, we are free to choose whatever we want. However, we will be the happiest if we chart his course.

The Love of God:
http://lds.org...

3 And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;

4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.
D&C 138:3
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/26/2011 9:57:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@tyler90az I really do appreciate your response.
I believe you are sincere in your convictions, And I trust that you would believe me when I say, "I am not out to change anybodies mind, or to convince anybody of anything".

What I am doing is trying to get somebody to change my mind. To challenge my own belief system so to speak.
it's only through facing opposition to your own viewpoints that one is able to determine the validity of their convictions.

This is not meant as derogatory but this is something I see many Christians actively avoid.
Are you willing to face opposition to your viewpoints? to ask and answer tough questions?
If so then I would suggest that it would be in your best interest to stop and actually listen to the opposing viewpoints and seriously consider the validity of them before responding with something that misses the point.

I say this because it appears that you have failed to really get a handle on what this thread is all about.
It's not about fish, or me being a God, it's about more than that.

I invite you to read through this entire thread to get a better understanding of the whole picture.

With all due respect @tyler90az, you have failed to address the bigger questions here and you've missed the point completely.
I understand that as a LDS member it is your duty to convert the unconverted, and I am giving you an opportunity to succeed in that goal, but you are performing very, very poorly. and not bothering to put things in context does not help your cause.
Redefining terms, avoiding questions, and trying to frame arguments that conform to "alternative definitions" rather than what they are commonly known is a very common tactic of those more interested in wining an argument than those who genuinely seek truth.
I would like to think that you and the others in this thread are above that.
If you do not seek truth, but only to convert, at what cost will that come?

Step back, regroup, and think it over. then bring something that I can use to say, ya know, he may have something there?.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/26/2011 10:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@tyler90az

Oh by the way, almost forgot, if and when you respond, could you share with me a little about how the following statement fits in with a truly loving god?

we are commanded to love God.

Seriously, I sincerely would like to know how commanding someone to love you is moral?
If it is moral for God to do so, how come it would be considered immoral for man to do it? and please answer the question seriously, "because he's God" is not an inadequate answer. It implies a double standard which falls short of integrity.

Thanks @tyler90az
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/26/2011 10:53:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 9:57:53 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
@tyler90az I really do appreciate your response.
I believe you are sincere in your convictions, And I trust that you would believe me when I say, "I am not out to change anybodies mind, or to convince anybody of anything".

Is that not what debate is about, changing peoples minds? I respect you and take everything you say into consideration.

What I am doing is trying to get somebody to change my mind. To challenge my own belief system so to speak.

it's only through facing opposition to your own viewpoints that one is able to determine the validity of their convictions.
This is not meant as derogatory but this is something I see many Christians actively avoid.
Are you willing to face opposition to your viewpoints? to ask and answer tough questions?
If so then I would suggest that it would be in your best interest to stop and actually listen to the opposing viewpoints and seriously consider the validity of them before responding with something that misses the point.

If I did not want to face opposition would I be on a debate site? Have you read my other threads? My beliefs have been clearly challenged and I have faced opposing viewpoints. Again I will ask if I did not want to face opposition would I be on a debate site?

I say this because it appears that you have failed to really get a handle on what this thread is all about.
It's not about fish, or me being a God, it's about more than that.

If you don't want t hear things that make sense about my religion, why would you post this?

I invite you to read through this entire thread to get a better understanding of the whole picture.

Why do you ask questions you don't want answers to? When you make a forum post don't you want responses? Is there a new norm?

With all due respect @tyler90az, you have failed to address the bigger questions here and you've missed the point completely.

I understand that as a LDS member it is your duty to convert the unconverted, and I am giving you an opportunity to succeed in that goal, but you are performing very, very poorly. and not bothering to put things in context does not help your cause.
Redefining terms, avoiding questions, and trying to frame arguments that conform to "alternative definitions" rather than what they are commonly known is a very common tactic of those more interested in wining an argument than those who genuinely seek truth.
I would like to think that you and the others in this thread are above that.

If you have ever studied religions, you would know they all believe something different. I was simply telling you what my religion believes. I was not redefining terms, avoiding questions intentionally or giving alternate definitions. Rather I was just explaining what I believe. Is that not how you change somebody's mind, by explaining what you believe?

If you do not seek truth, but only to convert, at what cost will that come?

I am sharing my gospel and debating. If the holy ghost touches somebody's soul through me, I would be lying if I said I would not be happy.

Step back, regroup, and think it over. then bring something that I can use to say, ya know, he may have something there?.

The burden lies with the poster to raise a real question. According to you nobody that has responded to this thread understands what you are asking. Therefore, your question makes no sense. Is it my fault nobody understands your post? How am I going to understand the post if nobody else does?

Did you not wonder why we had to praise God? Did I not answer that? Did I not clear up misunderstandings you had about God?

If you are poster that follows different rules then everybody else, it is your job to tell us. If you pose a question and nobody understands it, it is your job to explain it. If you are a poster that seeks truth, yet avoids ways to find truth, it is your job to tell us your not a truth seekers.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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12/26/2011 10:55:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:45:11 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
@tyler90az

Oh by the way, almost forgot, if and when you respond, could you share with me a little about how the following statement fits in with a truly loving god?

we are commanded to love God.

Seriously, I sincerely would like to know how commanding someone to love you is moral?
If it is moral for God to do so, how come it would be considered immoral for man to do it? and please answer the question seriously, "because he's God" is not an inadequate answer. It implies a double standard which falls short of integrity.

Thanks @tyler90az

Loving God is a higher law set forth by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ recognizes that if we love God with all our hearts, every commandment laid forth by God will easily followed.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/27/2011 1:07:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@tyler90az

Thanks for your response

Is that not what debate is about, changing peoples minds? I respect you and take everything you say into consideration.

I'll take your word for it.

If I did not want to face opposition would I be on a debate site?

Not necessarily, I won't imply that it is you, but there may be some who enter debate to learn to be better lairs, to turn other peoples words around on them and twist their meaning. to enhance their skills of manipulation. etc.

Have you read my other threads?

Some.

My beliefs have been clearly challenged and I have faced opposing viewpoints.

I would say rather weak challenges but the biggest challenge is something that comes from within, not an opponent.

Again I will ask if I did not want to face opposition would I be on a debate site?
Again I respond that would not be the only reason to take part in debate.

If you don't want t hear things that make sense about my religion, why would you post this?

you have made an assertion that is not based on fact here. You have no evidence that I do or don't want to hear or not hear anything.
What you have evidence of is me responding to your responses that miss the point.
It does seem apparent to me through this response that you do not feel you have missed the point at all. and I am making a honest effort to get something that makes sense out of a sincere question.
For you to say that I "don't want to hear things that make sense out of your religion", presupposes that I am not sincere in my quest for answers.
I want to be as honest as I can be, and please accept this as a polite criticism:
your responses haven't made sense to me. please try and clarify them in a way that acknowledges to the asker, that you understand the concept that they are inquiring about, and that they can understand within the context of the question.
Again, I'm not trying to be combative or anything when I say, you have failed at doing this.

Why do you ask questions you don't want answers to?
this is one of the things I am referring to. It simply does not make sense.
it is out of the context of asking you to read all of the posts to get a clearer idea of what the bigger picture is.
With all due respect, this is from out of left field.

When you make a forum post don't you want responses? Is there a new norm?

once again, you are not being clear on what you are referring to.
does asking you to read through all the posts to get a better idea of what this thread is really about, equate to "When you make a forum post don't you want responses?", once again, left field.

If you have ever studied religions,

I have, very much so.

you would know they all believe something different.

38,000 different denominations in Christianity alone.
(all believing something different)

I was simply telling you what my religion believes.

I accept that, and believe that you were.

I was not redefining terms, avoiding questions intentionally or giving alternate definitions.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I was referring to you in those terms. It was meant as a general statement.

Rather I was just explaining what I believe.

I accept that as truth, but please understand, your message was not formulated in a manner that would facilitate clear delineation.

Is that not how you change somebody's mind, by explaining what you believe?

I respectfully disagree with you there, nobody can ever change anybodies mind by telling them their beliefs. A member of the flat earth society can tell me what he believes till he's blue in the face and it will not change my mind. ones own mind is the only thing that can get one to change their mind, which typically comes through evidence that supports that change.
and that evidence has to come from a clearly understandable reliable source.

I am sharing my gospel and debating.

I support you in your efforts
perhaps my criticism of your technique would help you get your message across a bit more clear?

If the holy ghost touches somebody's soul through me, I would be lying if I said I would not be happy.

Nothing wrong with that.

The burden lies with the poster to raise a real question.

there is a real question. a real heavy question, one that is not easily answered.

According to you nobody that has responded to this thread understands what you are asking.

Thats kind of a stretch there isn't it,
Once again, your responding to things that were never posted
I'm not sure how
"The responses by some completely miss the heart of the issue."
equates to
"nobody that has responded to this thread understands what you are asking."
Perhaps you could share that with me?

Therefore, your question makes no sense.

Here we go again, left field.
so your telling me
If Love is perfect. It comes without strings.
Unconditional love means just that. it comes without conditions.
Love can not include selfishness.
If god has and is Perfect love
How can this perfect love come with the condition of praise?
Praise is a form of appreciation (so to speak)
If I love you, my love is not dependent on you appreciating my love.
and If I were to give you a gift, any further rewards that I may have for you :are not dependent an whether you appreciate that gift, If I do indeed love you :unconditionally.
Thats what love is, it's a gift.
people that give gifts with the expectation of something in return do not do so :out of love.
Therefore: How can you qualify Gods love as perfect?
does not make sense?
If this is the case, please accept my apologies I genuinely did not realize that this was to difficult of a concept for some people to understand.
I'm sorry @tyler90az ,really, I mean it. (not being facetious)

Is it my fault nobody understands your post?

Not quite sure who the nobody is your referring to, but at least some people do. and I never made the claim that nobody understands my post, (I believe that was you, but I could be mistaken)

How am I going to understand the post if nobody else does?

Others do. @Gileandos does. not quite sure where your getting this information that nobody understands my post. (perhaps you're pulling it out of thin air?)

Did you not wonder why we had to praise God?

No I did not wonder why anybody had to praise God, or ever ask a question that intimated that notion.
this is what I was talking about when I pointed out to you that you missed the point completely. this is an example of it right here. your answering questions that were never asked. not even close.

Did I not answer that?
you answered a question that was never asked.
And you wonder why I suggest
that you actually read the whole thread to get a better understanding of the whole picture.

Did I not clear up misunderstandings you had about God?
Not even close, you made things worse by responding with answers to questions that were never asked and irrelevant.

If you are poster that follows different rules then everybody else, it is your job to tell us.

Left field

If you pose a question and nobody understands it,

People do understand it, it's just you and some others that have trouble understanding it.
And I do apologize for posing questions that you have difficulties understanding. (Sincerely)

it is your job to explain it.
I try, but when I do, I keep getting responses from left field.

If you are a poster that seeks truth, yet avoids ways to find truth, it is your job to tell us your not a truth seekers.

I would agree with that statement. but have yet to see any evidence of your assertion that I have avoided a way to find truth.
Because that simply is not the case. My questions are sincere, whether you have the willingness, ability, or capability to understand them is beyond my circle of influence
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/27/2011 2:40:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@tyler90az

It really pains me to do this but , I;m actually trying to help you here alright, so please bear with me.

This is an example of what I've been talking about when I point out that you are responding to things that haven't been posted.

I asked you
"could you share with me a little about how the following statement fits in with a truly loving god?"

we are commanded to love God.

Seriously, I sincerely would like to know how commanding someone to love you is moral?
If it is moral for God to do so, how come it would be considered immoral for man to do it? and please answer the question seriously, "because he's God" is not an inadequate answer. It implies a double standard which falls short of integrity.

and your response was

"Loving God is a higher law set forth by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ recognizes that if we love God with all our hearts, every commandment laid forth by God will easily followed."

It appears from your response that you are answering a question relating to God's laws.

No such question was asked @tyler90az .
nothing resembling anything related to God's laws was asked.

This is where the problem lies @tyler90az, for whatever reason you are failing to see the reality that is presented before you. and you are responding to something different then what has been presented to you.

I asked a really simple to understand straightforward question relating to how a God can be considered moral if he commands people to love him. (in a nutshell)

and your response was "Loving God is a higher law ... etc"

Nobody said anything about us loving god, not even close. go back and look.
This isn't a matter of me posting things nobody can understand, this is a matter of you not seeing reality when it stares you in the face.
I'm sorry, but I can't think of any other reasons why someone would respond in the way that you have.
Me: Hey @tyler90az , whats 1 + 1 = ?

You: Pineapples don't have kickstands!

Me: your answering questions that were not asked.

you: Stop asking questions that you don't want answers to.

Seriously @tyler90az , dead seriously, you not only will not be able to win new recruits in the name of the church, but with tactics like that you will kill any inclination someone may have to investigate further what the church may have to offer.

Ya gotta do better @tyler90az, ya gotta try harder, God wants you to bring in new recruits and you're driving them away.
I want you to make sense, I want to hear something from you that makes me go Hmm, maybe he has something there, maybe I should rethink my position, but what do I get?, I get answers to questions I didn't ask.
And when I try to make things simpler for you, I get the answer to yet another question I didn't ask.
I'm trying to help you here @tyler90az, but you're not making it easy.
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/27/2011 9:04:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am not going to argue you with you man. Have a good one!
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/27/2011 9:24:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/27/2011 9:04:21 AM, tyler90az wrote:
I am not going to argue you with you man. Have a good one!

I challenged you to a debate; I look forward to you accepting.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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12/27/2011 11:11:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/26/2011 10:45:11 PM, Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good wrote:
@tyler90az

Oh by the way, almost forgot, if and when you respond, could you share with me a little about how the following statement fits in with a truly loving god?

we are commanded to love God.

Seriously, I sincerely would like to know how commanding someone to love you is moral?
If it is moral for God to do so, how come it would be considered immoral for man to do it? and please answer the question seriously, "because he's God" is not an inadequate answer. It implies a double standard which falls short of integrity.


It is moral its immoral for a woman to not even give a guy a chance.

Thanks @tyler90az
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit