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God loves you, now go to hell.

Illegalcombatant
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12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.

I have noticed alot of christians like to throw in the comment hell was made for the angels/demons. I think this is to try and lessen the impact of having a God create hell to throw people into. Trouble is it doesn't and it also makes God to be improvising, Hey I made hell for demons, but now that I think about it, why not throw in some humans in there too, its a 2 for 1 deal, that's smart thinking.

Oh its gets better, see now that God created hell, throws some one into hell the christians responds, the person choose hell. Ummm no, people don't choose to be eternally tortured, they do it because its forced on them.

Anyone want to be eternally tortured ? what no ? but hell will go to waste, nevermind lets just throw some people into hell anyway.......

Why does hell exist ? because God created it, think about it. I mean I suppose God could of chosen NOT to create hell, but then, how are we going to scare the sh*t outta people ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
DATCMOTO
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12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Illegalcombatant
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12/28/2011 1:05:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?

The truth within myself is saying there is something very very wrong here.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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12/28/2011 1:13:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?

Oh and ditto to your Dat, ditto to you.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.

Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/28/2011 1:53:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah I get that phantom, but I what I am talking about is within the concepts of the christian hell, that been a place or state of immense suffering for ever and ever.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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12/28/2011 3:13:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.

I have noticed alot of christians like to throw in the comment hell was made for the angels/demons. I think this is to try and lessen the impact of having a God create hell to throw people into. Trouble is it doesn't and it also makes God to be improvising, Hey I made hell for demons, but now that I think about it, why not throw in some humans in there too, its a 2 for 1 deal, that's smart thinking.

Oh its gets better, see now that God created hell, throws some one into hell the christians responds, the person choose hell. Ummm no, people don't choose to be eternally tortured, they do it because its forced on them.

Anyone want to be eternally tortured ? what no ? but hell will go to waste, nevermind lets just throw some people into hell anyway.......

Why does hell exist ? because God created it, think about it. I mean I suppose God could of chosen NOT to create hell, but then, how are we going to scare the sh*t outta people ?

You misunderstand hell. It's not really a place but a state of being. Catholicism teaches that hell is the state of eternal separation from God which occurs when we willfully deny God's grace and mercy. Also God gives us the tools to repent from our wrong doings and obtain salvation.

On a side note, I have heard some theologians argue that God never created hell. Rather the fallen angels created it when they turned from God.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/28/2011 4:16:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 3:13:44 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
You misunderstand hell. It's not really a place but a state of being. Catholicism teaches that hell is the state of eternal separation from God which occurs when we willfully deny God's grace and mercy. Also God gives us the tools to repent from our wrong doings and obtain salvation.

None of the people who deny Gods grace and Mercy, do so with the knowledge that God exists but chooses not to follow him. We have not been convinced that a God exists, and therefore we cannot worship something that we dont even believe exists. Satan and the fallen angels, know, absolutely, that a God exists, yet chooses not to worship. I believe we are fundementally different from the fallen angels which hell is designed for.

I fail to see how we have willfully denied God. Will has nothing to do with belief.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/28/2011 5:00:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?

The "if you chose to break the law then you derve to be tortured and executed," gambit didn't work for Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc.... What make you think it's anything less than retarded when applied to god?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/28/2011 8:56:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 5:00:26 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?

The "if you chose to break the law then you derve to be tortured and executed," gambit didn't work for Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc.... What make you think it's anything less than retarded when applied to god?

Its worse than that. We are given no evidence as to whether these laws exist in the first place.

Imagine waking up tomorrow and finding out that all those hours you spent on video games was actually illegal, and being imprisoned for it. Then, someone comes along and tells you "Well, its your fault, you chose to play video games and break the law".
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 9:32:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stance:

We do not believe in the traditional version of heaven and hell. We believe in three kingdoms of glory(heaven). Any of these three kingdoms are better then mortality. Does it not make sense that God would give ample chance for his children to make it too Heaven?

Celestial Kingdom:
The highest kingdom of glory, the inhabitants will be in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ. It is likened unto the Sun in glory. The inhabitants are the Saints of God, his children who have accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, performed all the necessary ordinances and lived righteously.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

Terrestrial Kingdom:
The middle glory, it is likened onto the glory of the moon. They will have the presence of the Son. The inhabitants will be the people who have lived a good life and worshiped God in the way they thought was correct. However, they never accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ or performed the necessary ordinances to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

Telestial Kingdom:
The least degree of glory, likened onto the glory of the stars. They will have the presence of the Holy Ghost. It is a place for criminals and bad people.

81 And again, we asaw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who adeny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

Hell:
Is a place for sons of perdition or those who have received his full glory(very few), yet have denied the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is a place where very few souls will end up. Even then it is not a traditional version of hell, it is hell in the sense, of knowing you could have done better. Those in the Terrestial Kingdom ad Telestial Kingdom also experience hell, knowing they could have done better.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and anone of them is blost, but the son of cperdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

God Loves All:
He knows each of us individually and loves all of us. It is not conditional, it is unconditional love. That is why God has given so many chances for us to return onto him. That is why he sends out legions of missionaries to rescue his children.

"Sisters(anyone), wherever you are, whatever your circumstances may be, you are not forgotten. No matter how dark your days may seem, no matter how insignificant you may feel, no matter how overshadowed you think you may be, your Heavenly Father has not forgotten you. In fact, He loves you with an infinite love.

Just think of it: You are known and remembered by the most majestic, powerful, and glorious Being in the universe! You are loved by the King of infinite space and everlasting time!

He who created and knows the stars knows you and your name—you are the daughters of His kingdom. The Psalmist wrote:

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? …

"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."5

God loves you because you are His child. He loves you even though at times you may feel lonely or make mistakes."
Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Why does hell exist ? because God created it, think about it. I mean I suppose God could of chosen NOT to create hell, but then, how are we going to scare the sh*t outta people ?

God created hell for the devil.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt. 25:41

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others heflattereth away, and telleth them there is no bhell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.
2 Nephi 28:21

Scriptures:

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a clove of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
2 Nephi 31:20

3 And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;

4 That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved.
D&C 138: 3-4

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the boath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deut: 7-8
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13

Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/28/2011 9:56:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.


"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13



Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...

I don't know what planet you are on, but eternal punishment cannot be out of love. By definition.

For it to be for love, while not very nice, it must be in our own long term best interests. I fail to see how an eternal punishment can be in our long term interests, hence for love. Its like saying execution can be used for rehabilitation.
Oldfrith
Posts: 301
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12/28/2011 10:02:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

1) God creates Hell for the fallen angels. True fact, and yes, I did read your post.
2) God throw some one into hell. Should really be, "God throws sinners who do not accept His grace into Hell
3) Ergo, God loves that person. God does love that person, but hates the sin. The very reason why Jesus died was the (not a. I'd be willing to debate that) solution for sin.
God only throws into hell those whom do not accept His grace Evidence: Matthew 22: 1-14
You know how people, when they don't know the meaning of a word, automatically think it's appropriate?
Well, How about this one:
Schloop-Schloop-Ping-a-Pang-bong
Which means:
To play a vigorous game of monopoly
tkubok
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12/28/2011 10:14:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 9:56:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I don't know what planet you are on, but eternal punishment cannot be out of love. By definition.

It can, if you live on planet Kolob.

Youll probably have to know a bit about Mormonism to understand that joke xD
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2011 10:16:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.:

That premise doesn't necessarily follow. You can love your son all you want, but if he ends up like Jeffery Dahmer, the most loving thing you might do for him (and society) is turn in him, even knowing it'll result in a life/death sentence.

The problem really is with God's complicity in giving mankind certain instincts and predilections that they have no control over, but then casting them to hell for acting upon the very instincts he imparted. THAT's the messed up part, IMO.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/28/2011 10:20:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?:

DAT, don't be daft. Nobody desires to be away from God. They just don't believe there is a God to be near or away from at all.

You just love casting aspersions though, as if anyone is an atheist they must automatically be antogonistic to God, versus just not having any sufficient reason to believe in him.

But here's some food for thought for you: If God clearly revealed himself, there would not atheists. Think on that real hard.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/28/2011 10:35:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 1:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God is simply giving you your hearts desire; if you wish to reject Him and His ordinances and even supress the truth within yourself of His existence then how can you hope to stand in His presence?

Ok, let's perform a test shall we?

There is a person. A person that has never met you. But you love them. In fact, your love is so great, that no one else loves this person more than you. But they don't know you exist.

Furthermore, they are sick. Very sick. This sickness has no symptoms but, if left untreated, they will die. They don't know they are sick and no test can verify this sickness.

Now, you can cure them. This cure is 100% effective. Requires no effort on your part, doesn't harm the target in anyway. All you have to do is will them to be cured and -POOF- they're cured. They don't even have to know about it. They can live their life completely unaffected, except they will now not die from a sickness they didn't even know they had.

What do you do? Do you cure them out of love? Or, because they don't believe you exist or that they are sick "Give them what they want" and let them die? Even thought that's not really what they want since they don't believe they are sick to begin with?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/28/2011 10:37:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 10:16:40 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
That premise doesn't necessarily follow. You can love your son all you want, but if he ends up like Jeffery Dahmer, the most loving thing you might do for him (and society) is turn in him, even knowing it'll result in a life/death sentence.

I agree, but when you apply this to God, this argument fails. If you love your son, and you had the power to change him with absolute knowledge that he would change, would you do it? If you had the power to prevent him from doing bad things, would you do it? God supposedly has this power, yet does nothing. Instead, he sends you straight to hell.

Furthermore, I agree, some crimes require the death penalty, because the punishment should fit the crime. But, i would be opposed to handing death sentences to theft or slander. Clearly the punishment does not fit the crime. Yet, God hands out the same punishment, the worst punishment, for ALL crimes. Worst yet, he sees not loving him and worshipping him, as a crime.

If my son was as bad as jefferey dahmer, i agree, he should be locked up or even executed. But if he simply didnt love me? No, i would say thats a stupid punishment for not loving me.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/28/2011 10:44:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 10:16:40 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.:

That premise doesn't necessarily follow. You can love your son all you want, but if he ends up like Jeffery Dahmer, the most loving thing you might do for him (and society) is turn in him, even knowing it'll result in a life/death sentence.

Sorry. But the analogy fails. God is not like a parent and hell is not like a prison. A human parent should indeed turn their son in to be imprisoned because A) as a mortal being, that is the best of available options and B) prison is designed to protect society. God is not a limited so hell hardly seems like the best of God's available options and hell doesn't protect anyone because the dead don't need protection.


The problem really is with God's complicity in giving mankind certain instincts and predilections that they have no control over, but then casting them to hell for acting upon the very instincts he imparted. THAT's the messed up part, IMO.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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12/28/2011 10:45:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.

I have noticed alot of christians like to throw in the comment hell was made for the angels/demons. I think this is to try and lessen the impact of having a God create hell to throw people into. Trouble is it doesn't and it also makes God to be improvising, Hey I made hell for demons, but now that I think about it, why not throw in some humans in there too, its a 2 for 1 deal, that's smart thinking.

Oh its gets better, see now that God created hell, throws some one into hell the christians responds, the person choose hell. Ummm no, people don't choose to be eternally tortured, they do it because its forced on them.

Anyone want to be eternally tortured ? what no ? but hell will go to waste, nevermind lets just throw some people into hell anyway.......

Why does hell exist ? because God created it, think about it. I mean I suppose God could of chosen NOT to create hell, but then, how are we going to scare the sh*t outta people ?

You are right. Infinite punishment for finite "sins", some of which aren't wrong in the first place? Would any of you torture your own child in the basement for not loving you? Or not believing in you? Even for a short time? It's absurd.

Love may fail to draw a child to their parent for a short time. But love does not control or manipulate and it never rejects completely.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 11:13:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 9:56:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.


"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13



Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...

I don't know what planet you are on, but eternal punishment cannot be out of love. By definition.

For it to be for love, while not very nice, it must be in our own long term best interests. I fail to see how an eternal punishment can be in our long term interests, hence for love. Its like saying execution can be used for rehabilitation.

The Sons of Perdition are those who have received Gods full glory(seen him); yet have still chose not to follow his path. They have the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus Christ at anytime in mortality, however, if they die denying what they have seen they are the sons of perdition. Them denying God, is like us denying that we have parents. That is why there are very few Sons of Perdition. Why would anybody deny something that have seen? Although, it does happen.

How can God love them?
Take a child who has a loving parent; the parent has loved the child from the day he/she was born. That child grows up one day and becomes a serial killer. The obvious punishment is life in prison or death. Does that parent still love the child? Off course, the parent has unconditional love. What the parent feels is disappointment and accepts that he child has to pay a punishment.

There are laws, like the law of gravity, that must be followed. If a person becomes a Son of Perdition he must pay the punishment. The punishment is hell, or the knowledge that you could have been in the presence of God for eternity, instead will spend it in the presence of the Devil.

The Lord has said that "there is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

"And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130:20–21.)

----

This scripture tells us that all things in God's economy, even those which to us seem inanimate, obey the laws by which they are governed.

"… the earth [for example] abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law." (D&C 88:25.)

"Therefore, … it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

"That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; …

"And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ [which is his gospel—the perfect law of liberty], must inherit another kingdom, …

"For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory. …" (D&C 88:19–24.)

Great talk on laws of heaven:
http://lds.org...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 11:15:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 10:14:41 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:56:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
I don't know what planet you are on, but eternal punishment cannot be out of love. By definition.

It can, if you live on planet Kolob.

Youll probably have to know a bit about Mormonism to understand that joke xD

You'll probably have to know a bit about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to understand that joke makes no sense.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2011 11:17:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If my son was as bad as jefferey dahmer, i agree, he should be locked up or even executed. But if he simply didnt love me? No, i would say thats a stupid punishment for not loving me.:

Good point.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/28/2011 11:21:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 11:13:12 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:56:05 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.


"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13



Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...

I don't know what planet you are on, but eternal punishment cannot be out of love. By definition.

For it to be for love, while not very nice, it must be in our own long term best interests. I fail to see how an eternal punishment can be in our long term interests, hence for love. Its like saying execution can be used for rehabilitation.

The Sons of Perdition are those who have received Gods full glory(seen him); yet have still chose not to follow his path. They have the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus Christ at anytime in mortality, however, if they die denying what they have seen they are the sons of perdition. Them denying God, is like us denying that we have parents. That is why there are very few Sons of Perdition. Why would anybody deny something that have seen? Although, it does happen.

How can God love them?
Take a child who has a loving parent; the parent has loved the child from the day he/she was born. That child grows up one day and becomes a serial killer. The obvious punishment is life in prison or death. Does that parent still love the child? Off course, the parent has unconditional love. What the parent feels is disappointment and accepts that he child has to pay a punishment.

There are laws, like the law of gravity, that must be followed. If a person becomes a Son of Perdition he must pay the punishment. The punishment is hell, or the knowledge that you could have been in the presence of God for eternity, instead will spend it in the presence of the Devil.

The Lord has said that "there is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

"And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." (D&C 130:20–21.)

----

This scripture tells us that all things in God's economy, even those which to us seem inanimate, obey the laws by which they are governed.

"… the earth [for example] abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law." (D&C 88:25.)

"Therefore, … it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

"That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; …

"And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ [which is his gospel—the perfect law of liberty], must inherit another kingdom, …

"For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

"And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory. …" (D&C 88:19–24.)

Great talk on laws of heaven:
http://lds.org...

Are you listening to anything being said? Or are you just posting the same thing just to make yourself feel better?

No loving parent would ever force their child to be tortured for eternity as a punishment for anything. Certainly not for rejecting them.

In fact, if a human parent EVER acted as you are suggesting, they would be rightly vilified and held up as an object of pure evil. Even by yourself.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2011 11:23:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry. But the analogy fails. God is not like a parent and hell is not like a prison. A human parent should indeed turn their son in to be imprisoned because A) as a mortal being, that is the best of available options and B) prison is designed to protect society. God is not a limited so hell hardly seems like the best of God's available options and hell doesn't protect anyone because the dead don't need protection.:

I agree with all this, my only contention is with the OP's wording. He stated that loving someone means you shouldn't go to hell on that sole account. I don't believe that premise necessary follows.

I obviously agree that the punishment of hell is outrageously excessive, and that God is a real son-of-a-bitch in the unlikely event hell was a real place for souls consigned to eternal damnation.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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12/28/2011 11:34:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:51:39 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
1) God creates hell
2) God throws some one into hell
C) Ergo God loves that person

Anyone else see a problem here ? I will go out on a limb here, creating a place of eternal suffering and putting some one there isn't a loving act.

I have noticed alot of christians like to throw in the comment hell was made for the angels/demons. I think this is to try and lessen the impact of having a God create hell to throw people into. Trouble is it doesn't and it also makes God to be improvising, Hey I made hell for demons, but now that I think about it, why not throw in some humans in there too, its a 2 for 1 deal, that's smart thinking.

Oh its gets better, see now that God created hell, throws some one into hell the christians responds, the person choose hell. Ummm no, people don't choose to be eternally tortured, they do it because its forced on them.

Anyone want to be eternally tortured ? what no ? but hell will go to waste, nevermind lets just throw some people into hell anyway.......

Why does hell exist ? because God created it, think about it. I mean I suppose God could of chosen NOT to create hell, but then, how are we going to scare the sh*t outta people ?

God is Love. Now go from there... God not only hates sin, but God hates those who sin.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 11:36:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Are you listening to anything being said? Or are you just posting the same thing just to make yourself feel better?

If you see which posts I replied to, I was only that far in my reading. I did not see that a prison analogy was already made. I do apologize! However, I still stand by that analogy.

No loving parent would ever force their child to be tortured for eternity as a punishment for anything. Certainly not for rejecting them.

Are you reading what I have written? We do not believe in the traditional heaven and hell.

In fact, if a human parent EVER acted as you are suggesting, they would be rightly vilified and held up as an object of pure evil. Even by yourself.

Sons of perdition are worse than the vilest of sinners. Worse than murderers. They are those who like Satan himself, had a full knowledge of the truth of God and Christ and gospel truths and they not only turned their backs denying the truth but then they actively wage war against the truth. Someone who had this kind of knowledge might be someone who had actually seen Christ and was given a witness and then became an enemy. You have to have first knowledge, which most people dont' have and then you have to know you are lying and working to destroy the work of God. You have to act as Satan acts. Not necessarily in the "Satan worshipper" sense.
-MisHalfaway

Even after that, God being all loving, will give you multiple opportunities to repent.

Please watch this video if you truly want to learn:
http://lds.org...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/28/2011 12:05:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.

"Jacob I loved Essau I hated."

Oh yes, God loves everyone. He just snuffs peoples existence for their own good. How loving. No God does not love everyone, which is why we should fear Him.


"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

Does not say He loves everyone.

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

I'm not Mormon.

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

I'm not Mormon

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13

Oh jolly good. There we have it. Oh wait, I'm not Mormon.



Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...

I read part of it. Just to let you know, I'm not Mormon.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 12:07:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 12:05:28 PM, phantom wrote:
At 12/28/2011 9:44:53 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/28/2011 1:46:58 AM, phantom wrote:
One problem, God does not love everyone. Am I saying that justifies casting someone into eternal fire and torment? Of course not. And nothing probably could. Just felt like negating the all too common misconception that God love everyone.


Hell is not a place of torment. It's the place where souls are destroyed. Or something like that. The scriptures are always a little vague when speaking about the after life. Anyways...The soul is destroyed after death, for nonbelievers, not eternally tortured. Here's some verses that attribute to that fact.

Mathew 10:28 very clearly supports the fact that God destroys souls and that He does so in Hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"
Ezekiel 18:20

"let him know that [a]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
James 5:20

"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, "
2 Timothy 1:10

But [a]we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the [b]preserving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:39

"and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"
2 Peter 2:6

"But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in [a]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, "
2 Peter 2:12

"But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
2 Peter 3:7

Just because God does things, that may take the appearance of him not loving us, he certainly does love us. "As Many as I love, I Rebuke and Chasten." Out of love God will do "negative" things against us, in a knowledge it will make us better. We must remember mortality is a speck in time compared to eternity. Make one little white mark on a chalk board, black is eternity and that speck is mortality.

"Jacob I loved Essau I hated."

Oh yes, God loves everyone. He just snuffs peoples existence for their own good. How loving. No God does not love everyone, which is why we should fear Him.


"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent"
Revelation 3:19

Does not say He loves everyone.

"And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer"
D&C 105:6

I'm not Mormon.

"for the space of three hours … and chastened him because he remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord"
Ether 2:14

I'm not Mormon

"My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom"
D&C 136:13

Oh jolly good. There we have it. Oh wait, I'm not Mormon.



Good talk that you would like:
http://lds.org...

I read part of it. Just to let you know, I'm not Mormon.

I know you are not Mormon; I was just showing you what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama