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On The Only Begotten Son

M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Mr.Big_is_Bud_Good
Posts: 32
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12/28/2011 5:59:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
M.Torres, It's even worse than you think,

God knew from the get go that eve would eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. which set into motion the events that required his son to die for the sins of man that he knew they would commit in the first place.
And if that sounds illogical, it goes down hill from there.
Good luck at getting an honest attempt at an answer to this.
You're more likely to get scorn for asking the question in the first place.
(but that doesn't mean there is not a likelihood that you would get a sincere attempt to address the issue at hand from someone.)
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f**k off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we f**k off, O Lord?
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 6:22:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?

I see you have a few questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? I have a perfect book for you, The Book of Mormon!
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/28/2011 6:24:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:22:55 PM, tyler90az wrote:

I see you have a few questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? I have a perfect book for you, The Book of Mormon!

... dude, the Israelites did not go to America.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 6:25:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:24:16 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/28/2011 6:22:55 PM, tyler90az wrote:

I see you have a few questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? I have a perfect book for you, The Book of Mormon!

... dude, the Israelites did not go to America.

...dude, The Book of Mormon, is da bomb...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 6:27:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I know, where do you think Jesus went for three days? Does it not make sense he would visit all his children? Why would he not come back in one day, if he had no other work? Was he just like eeeenneeeeeemeeeneeee miiineeeemooo 3, I choose 3?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2011 6:29:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I see you have a few questions. Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? I have a perfect book for you, The Book of Mormon!:

And I have lovely beachfront property for sale in Afghanistan
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2011 6:34:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:27:41 PM, tyler90az wrote:
I know, where do you think Jesus went for three days? Does it not make sense he would visit all his children? Why would he not come back in one day, if he had no other work? Was he just like eeeenneeeeeemeeeneeee miiineeeemooo 3, I choose 3?:

Because it's symbolic of Jonah.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." -- Matthew 12:20
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/28/2011 6:41:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:27:41 PM, tyler90az wrote:
I know, where do you think Jesus went for three days? Does it not make sense he would visit all his children? Why would he not come back in one day, if he had no other work? Was he just like eeeenneeeeeemeeeneeee miiineeeemooo 3, I choose 3?

Why not?
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 6:42:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:41:02 PM, Physik wrote:
At 12/28/2011 6:27:41 PM, tyler90az wrote:
I know, where do you think Jesus went for three days? Does it not make sense he would visit all his children? Why would he not come back in one day, if he had no other work? Was he just like eeeenneeeeeemeeeneeee miiineeeemooo 3, I choose 3?

Why not?

Look at the world around us, is any just happenstance, or is every move God makes calculated?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/28/2011 6:48:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:27:41 PM, tyler90az wrote:
I know, where do you think Jesus went for three days? Does it not make sense he would visit all his children? Why would he not come back in one day, if he had no other work? Was he just like eeeenneeeeeemeeeneeee miiineeeemooo 3, I choose 3?

If Jesus ever existed in one or more actual human beings, then he (they) didn't go anywhere for 3 days. he (they) died and decomposed just like ever other mortal being that claimed to be a god.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/28/2011 6:50:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?

I will credit you for putting this politely. I tend to phrase it like this:

God raped a virgin to give birth to himself in human form, then incited his own creations to kill him in this form to create a loophole in his own rules to spare us from his own wrath.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/28/2011 8:36:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:50:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?

I will credit you for putting this politely. I tend to phrase it like this:

God raped a virgin to give birth to himself in human form, then incited his own creations to kill him in this form to create a loophole in his own rules to spare us from his own wrath.

You can make anything sound ridiculous.

World without God:
People actually believe we came out of nowhere, so something came from something. How can nothing come from something? Is it not a requisite that something comes out of something? Then there was a collision of two random nothings, like you know what. Then a universe was born, from nothing, something from nothing.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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12/29/2011 11:31:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 6:50:04 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?

I will credit you for putting this politely. I tend to phrase it like this:

God raped a virgin to give birth to himself in human form, then incited his own creations to kill him in this form to create a loophole in his own rules to spare us from his own wrath.

Yes that's pretty much it, I'm afraid. What a great cosmic plan! God chooses to incarnate in the Iron Age (!) when nothing can be reliably documented or verified and chooses to do it in a backward part of the world - the Middle East - not China where people were already reading and writing.

He then sacrifices himself to himself, allegedly (who's he trying to impress?). He dies for a weekend and then resurrects and then flies up into the sky. That'll save the world!
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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12/29/2011 12:23:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The sacrifice is the fact that a piece of God, his son, was humilitated beaten and killed unjustly. It was the fact that he had to go through the pain of dying, the humiliation at the hands of the Jews and then spend 3 days in Hell. This is where the sacrifice comes in.
MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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12/29/2011 3:13:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 12:23:41 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
The sacrifice is the fact that a piece of God, his son, was humilitated beaten and killed unjustly. It was the fact that he had to go through the pain of dying, the humiliation at the hands of the Jews and then spend 3 days in Hell. This is where the sacrifice comes in.

The Biblical God had already put a forgiveness plan in motion anyway so why not just forgive us? Why all the brutality? And what sort of a sacrifice is it anyway if God knows the final outcome - that he gets to rule the Universe forever? At least when Elvis died for my sins he stayed dead.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/29/2011 5:23:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/28/2011 5:46:20 PM, M.Torres wrote:
Okay, one thing that never made sense for me about Christianity.

God punished us for our sins, mainly stemming from the corruption of our nature from the deeds of Adam and Eve. Okay, so mankind are now sinners. Because we are sinners, we can no longer have eternal life in heaven unless we repent and turn to God. But even then, our sins are not forgiven. In order for our sins to be forgiven, God decides that because he loves us, rather than just say "You didn't eat out of that tree, so sure, eternal life for everyone!" he hatches a plan.

This misses the full story.
Satan made an accusation against God.
Humans were created to resolve the Satanic Rebellion that occurred in Heaven.
It is why we exist. So, yes indeed God knew Adam and Eve would follow Satan's wishes and rebel and lock all of humanity into Original Sin.

The Plan is not to save humanity but offer salvation to humanity that desires to be with God and clear his name in the courtroom of heaven, that He is both Just and appropriately loving.


God then finds a virgin to give birth to his son, who is raised to become Christ, and who teaches the Gospel to the world. But still, even if we followed all these new teachings (and they were very different than the prophets of old) humankind STILL IS NOT FORGIVEN. We are only forgiven IF and WHEN Jesus Christ decides to accept that he must die (which all humankind must anyway) and goes through with it. So he is unjustly tried and crucified, and this act of self sacrifice is what redeems mankind.

Again much more to the story.
Specifically the most righteous man on earth asks for a mediator that would be both Man and God and would stand to represent humans in the courtroom of Heaven.
Job chapter 9

In Job chapters 1 and 2 there is no mediator. In Zechariah 3 we see the Mediator that comes as Job's request prior to his human advent on earth.

After his human advent now Jesus, both God and Man can mediate between us if we have a dispute with God and can defend us against the accusations of Satan.


But wait wait wait. Jesus KNOWS he'll come back from the dead after three days, and receive eternal life. He knows this, so it's not like he's all "I'm gonna die for mankind AND NEVER COME BACK". Why have fear of death if it's not death? And if it wasn't death, what exactly was the price that was paid? And how do "our sins" tie to the crucifixion?

The crucifixion cured original sin nature. Your personal sins are to be worked out between you and God.
Jesus' ransom was paid to Satan, as Satan became ruler over the world. Satan required blood for blood. Jesus "paid" our ransom as our Kinsman Redeemer.
We are no longer slaves to Satan's world system of Sin.

We are now part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I never understood this. I don't get how the pain and suffering of crucifixion, which other people have felt and maybe even experienced worse, somehow is enough to make up for our sins. Other people have experienced worse than this, but they are not saved.

As stated above.
Through Propitiatory satisfaction of our original sin and deliverance in the payment of blood for blood redemption required of the Satanic Rebellion.


And why is it SO MERCIFUL of God to send his son to earth to die, if he and his son know he isn't really dying? That doesn't sound like a sacrifice at all!

Seriously, all of this just so man could have a chance to get into heaven? Isn't it all... arbitrary?

It is played out in relationship to the religious facts in the texts. When you study and have a relationship with God, he clarifies these things.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/1/2012 2:53:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Our sin is to doubt God's goodness, His very nature.. His only begotten Son NEVER doubted, never sinned even unto a shameful death on a cross..

So now we come back into relationship with God through His Son.. He does what we cannot; we are all nice when things are going well etc, but we repay evil with evil.. Jesus didn't!
The Cross.. the Cross.