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The Commandment to love & hell

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/29/2011 8:49:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime"

The command to love God or your neighbour is a problem, why ? Because the concept of love is intertwined with the concept of a volunteered act without threat/coercion.

Take for example the bank teller that is robbed, the robber points the shot gun and says hand over the money or have your face blown off. The bank teller clearly isn't volunteering to give the money to the robber but is doing so do to under coercion.

Now consider one concept of God that is presented, the concept been God commands you love himself............or you will burn in hell forever, or at least be tormented with eternal suffering, so whats the problem here ? The problem is you are been told to love God (a volunteered act) under the threat of coercion. But that's a logical contradiction.

You can't love God or something, until the threat of not loving God is removed. Until then, its coercion. The irony is, if you keep saying you love God, but its in the back of your mind about how you will suffer if you don't, all your doing is talking the talk and maybe even lying to yourself, an all knowing being knows that, and as such the all knowing being knows you don't really "love" what you claim to "love".

Love with the threat of suffering if you do otherwise isn't love, its compliance. Discuss.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/29/2011 9:26:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 8:49:57 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime"

The command to love God or your neighbour is a problem, why ? Because the concept of love is intertwined with the concept of a volunteered act without threat/coercion.

Take for example the bank teller that is robbed, the robber points the shot gun and says hand over the money or have your face blown off. The bank teller clearly isn't volunteering to give the money to the robber but is doing so do to under coercion.

Now consider one concept of God that is presented, the concept been God commands you love himself............or you will burn in hell forever, or at least be tormented with eternal suffering, so whats the problem here ? The problem is you are been told to love God (a volunteered act) under the threat of coercion. But that's a logical contradiction.

You can't love God or something, until the threat of not loving God is removed. Until then, its coercion. The irony is, if you keep saying you love God, but its in the back of your mind about how you will suffer if you don't, all your doing is talking the talk and maybe even lying to yourself, an all knowing being knows that, and as such the all knowing being knows you don't really "love" what you claim to "love".

Love with the threat of suffering if you do otherwise isn't love, its compliance. Discuss.

I do not see the issue.

We allow freedom in America, but we also limit freedom on threat of punishment.

It is not contradictory but clearly limited.

I love my children but clearly they have guardrails.

You are not punished from God because you failed to respond to His love.
You are punished by God for doing bad things outside of His allowed guardrails.

I fail to see your complaint.
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/29/2011 9:36:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hypothetically, if god were real, then all our morals would have come from him. If an atheist lives their life according to those morals, he will have responded to those morals (thereby gods 'love'), yet he will still be cast into hell.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/29/2011 9:37:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And no, I don't believe conditional love is worthy of the name.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/29/2011 10:12:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 9:26:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/29/2011 8:49:57 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime"

The command to love God or your neighbour is a problem, why ? Because the concept of love is intertwined with the concept of a volunteered act without threat/coercion.

Take for example the bank teller that is robbed, the robber points the shot gun and says hand over the money or have your face blown off. The bank teller clearly isn't volunteering to give the money to the robber but is doing so do to under coercion.

Now consider one concept of God that is presented, the concept been God commands you love himself............or you will burn in hell forever, or at least be tormented with eternal suffering, so whats the problem here ? The problem is you are been told to love God (a volunteered act) under the threat of coercion. But that's a logical contradiction.

You can't love God or something, until the threat of not loving God is removed. Until then, its coercion. The irony is, if you keep saying you love God, but its in the back of your mind about how you will suffer if you don't, all your doing is talking the talk and maybe even lying to yourself, an all knowing being knows that, and as such the all knowing being knows you don't really "love" what you claim to "love".

Love with the threat of suffering if you do otherwise isn't love, its compliance. Discuss.

I do not see the issue.

We allow freedom in America, but we also limit freedom on threat of punishment.


It is not contradictory but clearly limited.


I love my children but clearly they have guardrails.

How does any of this refute my point that an act that is done at least in part because of coercion isn't an act that is done free from coercion and thus not done out of love.


You are not punished from God because you failed to respond to His love.

Not exactly the context of my argument, its not the fail to respond that I am referring to, its the act to love God, or the act to not love God and suffer the consequences.

You are punished by God for doing bad things outside of His allowed guardrails.

My argument here is within the claim or implied claim how not loving God has terrible consequences so you better do it (coercion) not that you should adhere to Gods law or suffer the consequences.



I fail to see your complaint.

Love = A voluntary act, absent coercion. Maybe that helps, but I doubt it.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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12/30/2011 9:55:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 8:49:57 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime"

The command to love God or your neighbour is a problem, why ? Because the concept of love is intertwined with the concept of a volunteered act without threat/coercion.

Take for example the bank teller that is robbed, the robber points the shot gun and says hand over the money or have your face blown off. The bank teller clearly isn't volunteering to give the money to the robber but is doing so do to under coercion.

Now consider one concept of God that is presented, the concept been God commands you love himself............or you will burn in hell forever, or at least be tormented with eternal suffering, so whats the problem here ? The problem is you are been told to love God (a volunteered act) under the threat of coercion. But that's a logical contradiction.

You can't love God or something, until the threat of not loving God is removed. Until then, its coercion. The irony is, if you keep saying you love God, but its in the back of your mind about how you will suffer if you don't, all your doing is talking the talk and maybe even lying to yourself, an all knowing being knows that, and as such the all knowing being knows you don't really "love" what you claim to "love".

Love with the threat of suffering if you do otherwise isn't love, its compliance. Discuss.

Gods word doesnt teach a place of eternal torment-- satan owned religions teach that sadistic lie about God. The hebrew word Sheol = the greek word Hades-- both translate the common grave of mankind= the english word hell.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/30/2011 10:52:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 9:36:05 PM, Physik wrote:
Hypothetically, if god were real, then all our morals would have come from him. If an atheist lives their life according to those morals, he will have responded to those morals (thereby gods 'love'), yet he will still be cast into hell.

Mainstream Christian theology would recognize that such a person would NOT go to hell. Only certain Christian sects, the vast minority, would claim such a thing. Do not judge Christianity by these few and minor beliefs, albeit vocal.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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12/30/2011 10:55:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 10:52:08 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/29/2011 9:36:05 PM, Physik wrote:
Hypothetically, if god were real, then all our morals would have come from him. If an atheist lives their life according to those morals, he will have responded to those morals (thereby gods 'love'), yet he will still be cast into hell.

Mainstream Christian theology would recognize that such a person would NOT go to hell. Only certain Christian sects, the vast minority, would claim such a thing. Do not judge Christianity by these few and minor beliefs, albeit vocal.

So, would it be a fair assessment to say that, in your belief system, believing that God exists is NOT a prerequisite to go to heaven/avoid hell?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/30/2011 11:34:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/29/2011 10:12:12 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 12/29/2011 9:26:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/29/2011 8:49:57 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"Coercion ( /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. In law, coercion is codified as the duress crime"

The command to love God or your neighbour is a problem, why ? Because the concept of love is intertwined with the concept of a volunteered act without threat/coercion.

Take for example the bank teller that is robbed, the robber points the shot gun and says hand over the money or have your face blown off. The bank teller clearly isn't volunteering to give the money to the robber but is doing so do to under coercion.

Now consider one concept of God that is presented, the concept been God commands you love himself............or you will burn in hell forever, or at least be tormented with eternal suffering, so whats the problem here ? The problem is you are been told to love God (a volunteered act) under the threat of coercion. But that's a logical contradiction.

You can't love God or something, until the threat of not loving God is removed. Until then, its coercion. The irony is, if you keep saying you love God, but its in the back of your mind about how you will suffer if you don't, all your doing is talking the talk and maybe even lying to yourself, an all knowing being knows that, and as such the all knowing being knows you don't really "love" what you claim to "love".

Love with the threat of suffering if you do otherwise isn't love, its compliance. Discuss.

I do not see the issue.

We allow freedom in America, but we also limit freedom on threat of punishment.


It is not contradictory but clearly limited.


I love my children but clearly they have guardrails.

How does any of this refute my point that an act that is done at least in part because of coercion isn't an act that is done free from coercion and thus not done out of love.


You are not punished from God because you failed to respond to His love.

Not exactly the context of my argument, its not the fail to respond that I am referring to, its the act to love God, or the act to not love God and suffer the consequences.

You are punished by God for doing bad things outside of His allowed guardrails.

My argument here is within the claim or implied claim how not loving God has terrible consequences so you better do it (coercion) not that you should adhere to Gods law or suffer the consequences.



I fail to see your complaint.

Love = A voluntary act, absent coercion. Maybe that helps, but I doubt it.

(Please do not respond to this in bits and pieces but as a whole.)

That is a very personal definition of Love. Such a definition would mean that parents do not love their children if they punished them.
I do not know anyone else that would agree to such a definition.

I believe you might mean something different from your above response.

Perhaps you mean -
Love - A given or voluntary display of affection towards a person, that is absent of coercion to perform the act.

You seem to be Judging Christianity by these one off concepts that 2.5 Billion + Christians do not even discuss.

I will clearly state this definition can be true in one sense, but not in the Christian sense of Loving God.
To love God is to intellectually love who he is. He is goodness, wholesomeness. He is the Law. To not love these things is to not Love God.

In another sense, to love something is to have affection for something. You cannot love something you are not affectionate towards.

If a person rapes little children his a pedophile. You cannot have affection for a pedophile. You cannot love a pedophiliac person if that lifestyle is what defines them.
Why? Because you love wholesomeness.

Coercion is not even relevant to the discussion as it is intellectual discussion in Christianity.

Would you claim that to punish a pedophile is to coerce the pedophile to love wholesomeness?

Of course not, but we see the other sense is clear. We can say the pedophile does not Love who God is and the person who hates the pedophile loves who God is.

We as Christians clearly make this distinction, it is not by coercion you come to love God, but by loving who He is. The punishment does not make you love God, but affection for who He is reflected by your Love.
baggins
Posts: 855
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12/30/2011 11:36:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Illegalcombatant

As per you, what commandment should be given to humanity so that everyone loves their neighbors? Or do you consider a commandment promoting love as undesirable?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.