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iixis
Posts: 16
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5/22/2009 1:15:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
1. I'm a very hesitant, gradual, and doubtful person.

2. This isn't just a choice, it's my personality.

3. None of those traits are innately harmful to anyone.

4. Yet, they have a stronger tendency than most traits to lead me to Hell rather than Heaven. (??)

I'm currently without a religion and if I were to die randomly soon, I would be sent to Hell because I'm a slow thinker (according to Christianity*).

Or perhaps I get my game on and start making decisions, but I make the wrong one. Oh no, I'm a Muslim. I get sent to Hell because I thought in the wrong direction (according to Christianity*).

I don't see how either of these outcomes are just. No, I'm not choosing to be absent from God. I'm unaware of God. If I was aware that he exists, I would love to get to know him.

*According to Christianity, not going to Heaven has to do with Jesus -- I know this -- but there are reasons why the paths of my thoughts either yield an acceptance of Jesus or do not.

Also, please don't tell me Hell is an alright place. Your book is violently explicit about it. I wouldn't want to go.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 1:15:17 PM, iixis wrote:
1. I'm a very hesitant, gradual, and doubtful person.

2. This isn't just a choice, it's my personality.

3. None of those traits are innately harmful to anyone.

4. Yet, they have a stronger tendency than most traits to lead me to Hell rather than Heaven. (??)

I'm currently without a religion and if I were to die randomly soon, I would be sent to Hell because I'm a slow thinker (according to Christianity*).

Or perhaps I get my game on and start making decisions, but I make the wrong one. Oh no, I'm a Muslim. I get sent to Hell because I thought in the wrong direction (according to Christianity*).

I don't see how either of these outcomes are just. No, I'm not choosing to be absent from God. I'm unaware of God. If I was aware that he exists, I would love to get to know him.

*According to Christianity, not going to Heaven has to do with Jesus -- I know this -- but there are reasons why the paths of my thoughts either yield an acceptance of Jesus or do not.

Also, please don't tell me Hell is an alright place. Your book is violently explicit about it. I wouldn't want to go.

Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.
The Cross.. the Cross.
iixis
Posts: 16
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5/22/2009 1:56:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I'm not looking for loopholes, I'm looking for answers to loopholes that are already obvious to me.

DATCMOTO, if I were to tell you I've tried prayers like that, and nothing happened, would you first question your religion or my sincerity? Just curious.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/22/2009 2:20:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 1:56:27 PM, iixis wrote:
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I'm not looking for loopholes, I'm looking for answers to loopholes that are already obvious to me.

DATCMOTO, if I were to tell you I've tried prayers like that, and nothing happened, would you first question your religion or my sincerity? Just curious.

Your sincerity. (you asked)
God knows your heart better than you do yourself. He can see if your prayer is a 'better hurry up God or I'm going back to my loopholes.. God? right! times up. loopholes!"
I would advise a little perserverance and maybe even a little resistance.. think of something in your life that you know God (if He were real) would not approve of.. and then stop doing it.

James 4:7 (New King James Version)

Humility Cures Worldliness

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
iixis
Posts: 16
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5/22/2009 2:56:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 2:20:06 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Your sincerity. (you asked)

(I know, I expected this answer.)

As far as I know, you wouldn't directly know if my attempts had been sincere. You'd be inferring so because of your assumption that your religion is true. This is an assumption I lack. If I've been under the impression that my attempts have been sincere, and a stranger on the Internet tells me they aren't, where does that leave me? I'll keep trying, but just know it's awkward what you're telling me. I don't have the assumption that God exists like you do.

At 5/22/2009 2:20:06 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God knows your heart better than you do yourself. He can see if your prayer is a 'better hurry up God or I'm going back to my loopholes.. God? right! times up. loopholes!"

I'm not faithful to loopholes. They're only present when I try to explore your religion (or any other religion). All I ask is that you explain these hurdles.. I cannot jump them straight into a belief in God. If these hurdles can be ignored, then what keeps me from jumping straight into a belief in any god what so ever?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/22/2009 3:09:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"
I've tried that over 9000 times.

Responses thus far include crickets.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/22/2009 3:10:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 2:56:37 PM, iixis wrote:
At 5/22/2009 2:20:06 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Your sincerity. (you asked)

(I know, I expected this answer.)

As far as I know, you wouldn't directly know if my attempts had been sincere. You'd be inferring so because of your assumption that your religion is true. This is an assumption I lack. If I've been under the impression that my attempts have been sincere, and a stranger on the Internet tells me they aren't, where does that leave me? I'll keep trying, but just know it's awkward what you're telling me. I don't have the assumption that God exists like you do.

At 5/22/2009 2:20:06 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
God knows your heart better than you do yourself. He can see if your prayer is a 'better hurry up God or I'm going back to my loopholes.. God? right! times up. loopholes!"

I'm not faithful to loopholes. They're only present when I try to explore your religion (or any other religion). All I ask is that you explain these hurdles.. I cannot jump them straight into a belief in God. If these hurdles can be ignored, then what keeps me from jumping straight into a belief in any god what so ever?

I understand but I cannot pretend not to know that Jesus Christ is the only way.
You've got to humble yourself. Logic cannot help you. Do you think God would allow anyone to simply 'break into' the truth?

I believe everyone, somewhere, knows the truth. You have to dig deep and find Him.

John 3:16 (The Message)

16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

The Cross.. the Cross.
iixis
Posts: 16
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5/22/2009 3:22:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 3:10:40 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
I understand but I cannot pretend not to know that Jesus Christ is the only way.
You've got to humble yourself. Logic cannot help you. Do you think God would allow anyone to simply 'break into' the truth?

I believe everyone, somewhere, knows the truth. You have to dig deep and find Him.

John 3:16 (The Message)

16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.


Well, I appreciate you trying. Asking me to ignore logic and look at pretty words just isn't going to help. Muslims and Hindus can do that just as well and I don't suppose you think they're on to something too.

At 5/22/2009 3:10:40 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
I believe everyone, somewhere, knows the truth. You have to dig deep and find Him.

I guess poor spiritual diggers go to Hell. That seems really terrible.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/22/2009 3:36:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 3:09:39 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"
I've tried that over 9000 times.

Responses thus far include crickets.

And tumbleweeds.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/22/2009 5:53:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/22/2009 1:15:17 PM, iixis wrote:
1. I'm a very hesitant, gradual, and doubtful person.

2. This isn't just a choice, it's my personality.

3. None of those traits are innately harmful to anyone.

4. Yet, they have a stronger tendency than most traits to lead me to Hell rather than Heaven. (??)

I'm currently without a religion and if I were to die randomly soon, I would be sent to Hell because I'm a slow thinker (according to Christianity*).

Or perhaps I get my game on and start making decisions, but I make the wrong one. Oh no, I'm a Muslim. I get sent to Hell because I thought in the wrong direction (according to Christianity*).

I don't see how either of these outcomes are just. No, I'm not choosing to be absent from God. I'm unaware of God. If I was aware that he exists, I would love to get to know him.

*According to Christianity, not going to Heaven has to do with Jesus -- I know this -- but there are reasons why the paths of my thoughts either yield an acceptance of Jesus or do not.

Also, please don't tell me Hell is an alright place. Your book is violently explicit about it. I wouldn't want to go.

Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I've been doing that for a year and I'm still searching.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/22/2009 7:05:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I've been here before, and I get the difference between believing something, really, and expecting something. I was very religious as a child. Very, very religious. Shouting-hallelujah-in-public-religious. I would never go back to being that way, though. For those of you who haven't experienced complete faith, it's difficult to explain how completely differently such people see the world.

They don't think of God as a nice concept or a distant concern, the way I think most people, even self-declared theists, think of God. God is real like the sun. He is an unalterable physical element, except unseen, like air, that permeates all existence. To imagine what it is like to the true believers to be told that there is no god or gods, imagine that you are told by your parents that you are adopted. Worse, imagine they told you something really mind-bending, like you had been gender reassigned from birth. Imagine the personal struggle you would have to endure to discern your true self from the socially conditioned construct you had once believed you needed to be.

That's what it is like for true believers. They have been taught that God is an unalterable part of their existence, without which their lives would be empty and meaningless. God is necessary, because without him all endeavors are purposeless. DAT, I know you think it works because it really does work for you. Your mind shapes the paradigm of your worldview to filter out anything that would dare to encroach upon your faith. But realistically, complete faith isn't something a person can get from chanting mantras. It requires a devotion to a belief, even at the expense of reason, with no remorse or regrets. The value is an unshakable sureness in the propriety of one's actions. The cost, in my opinion, is the ability to form truly meaningful relationships with others, because you can never let their differences cloud your desire for conformity.

Just my two cents.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/23/2009 7:48:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/22/2009 7:05:35 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I've been here before, and I get the difference between believing something, really, and expecting something. I was very religious as a child. Very, very religious. Shouting-hallelujah-in-public-religious. I would never go back to being that way, though. For those of you who haven't experienced complete faith, it's difficult to explain how completely differently such people see the world.

They don't think of God as a nice concept or a distant concern, the way I think most people, even self-declared theists, think of God. God is real like the sun. He is an unalterable physical element, except unseen, like air, that permeates all existence. To imagine what it is like to the true believers to be told that there is no god or gods, imagine that you are told by your parents that you are adopted. Worse, imagine they told you something really mind-bending, like you had been gender reassigned from birth. Imagine the personal struggle you would have to endure to discern your true self from the socially conditioned construct you had once believed you needed to be.

That's what it is like for true believers. They have been taught that God is an unalterable part of their existence, without which their lives would be empty and meaningless. God is necessary, because without him all endeavors are purposeless. DAT, I know you think it works because it really does work for you. Your mind shapes the paradigm of your worldview to filter out anything that would dare to encroach upon your faith. But realistically, complete faith isn't something a person can get from chanting mantras. It requires a devotion to a belief, even at the expense of reason, with no remorse or regrets. The value is an unshakable sureness in the propriety of one's actions. The cost, in my opinion, is the ability to form truly meaningful relationships with others, because you can never let their differences cloud your desire for conformity.

Just my two cents.

You're not even close to what faith is about. It is what we put our faith in that is important, not 'how much'.
Everyone has faith.. mostly in themselves.. but also in money, love, family and so on.
None of these things can sustain us independently of Christ.
Sooner or later death will rob us of everything.

Hebrews 11:1-3 (New King James Version)

Hebrews 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/23/2009 8:05:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/23/2009 7:48:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/22/2009 7:05:35 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/22/2009 1:49:15 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Allow me to give you the single solitary best piece of advice anyone will ever give you ever:
THAT, IF you begin at the beginning, God will reveal Himself to you.
The beginning is simply this, you must say in your heart of hearts " I want the truth, WHATEVER it is and I shall not rest until I have found it "
Even better would be to say a short prayer along the lines of "God, if you are real please show me how to know and follow you"

Revelation 3:20 (New King James Version)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.


At the moment you're just looking for loopholes.. and we always find what we are looking for.. so start looking for the Truth.

I've been here before, and I get the difference between believing something, really, and expecting something. I was very religious as a child. Very, very religious. Shouting-hallelujah-in-public-religious. I would never go back to being that way, though. For those of you who haven't experienced complete faith, it's difficult to explain how completely differently such people see the world.

They don't think of God as a nice concept or a distant concern, the way I think most people, even self-declared theists, think of God. God is real like the sun. He is an unalterable physical element, except unseen, like air, that permeates all existence. To imagine what it is like to the true believers to be told that there is no god or gods, imagine that you are told by your parents that you are adopted. Worse, imagine they told you something really mind-bending, like you had been gender reassigned from birth. Imagine the personal struggle you would have to endure to discern your true self from the socially conditioned construct you had once believed you needed to be.

That's what it is like for true believers. They have been taught that God is an unalterable part of their existence, without which their lives would be empty and meaningless. God is necessary, because without him all endeavors are purposeless. DAT, I know you think it works because it really does work for you. Your mind shapes the paradigm of your worldview to filter out anything that would dare to encroach upon your faith. But realistically, complete faith isn't something a person can get from chanting mantras. It requires a devotion to a belief, even at the expense of reason, with no remorse or regrets. The value is an unshakable sureness in the propriety of one's actions. The cost, in my opinion, is the ability to form truly meaningful relationships with others, because you can never let their differences cloud your desire for conformity.

Just my two cents.

You're not even close to what faith is about. It is what we put our faith in that is important, not 'how much'.
Everyone has faith.. mostly in themselves.. but also in money, love, family and so on.
None of these things can sustain us independently of Christ.
Sooner or later death will rob us of everything.

Hebrews 11:1-3 (New King James Version)

Hebrews 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


Would you say that your faith in Christ is absolute? Would you say that for it to be any less than absolute would be unacceptable? That's a matter of 'how much.'
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/25/2009 1:50:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/23/2009 8:05:12 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:

Would you say that your faith in Christ is absolute? Would you say that for it to be any less than absolute would be unacceptable? That's a matter of 'how much.'

My faith, as any Christian will testify, varies according to circumstances etc. God even uses this 'undulation' as part of the salvation process.(it forces us to 'dig deep')
The point is that faith in any thing other than Jesus Christ is an absolute waste of time.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New King James Version)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/25/2009 2:22:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/25/2009 1:50:47 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/23/2009 8:05:12 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:

Would you say that your faith in Christ is absolute? Would you say that for it to be any less than absolute would be unacceptable? That's a matter of 'how much.'

My faith, as any Christian will testify, varies according to circumstances etc. God even uses this 'undulation' as part of the salvation process.(it forces us to 'dig deep')
The point is that faith in any thing other than Jesus Christ is an absolute waste of time.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New King James Version)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


I grant you that time can be wasted in false faith. What if you choose to waste no time by not abiding by any faith at all? Is there an actual, concrete negative consequence you can point to for choosing not to abide by any faith? Outside of hell or death I mean, I get that those are a given for a willing disbeliever.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/25/2009 3:51:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/25/2009 2:22:41 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/25/2009 1:50:47 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/23/2009 8:05:12 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:

Would you say that your faith in Christ is absolute? Would you say that for it to be any less than absolute would be unacceptable? That's a matter of 'how much.'

My faith, as any Christian will testify, varies according to circumstances etc. God even uses this 'undulation' as part of the salvation process.(it forces us to 'dig deep')
The point is that faith in any thing other than Jesus Christ is an absolute waste of time.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New King James Version)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


I grant you that time can be wasted in false faith. What if you choose to waste no time by not abiding by any faith at all? Is there an actual, concrete negative consequence you can point to for choosing not to abide by any faith? Outside of hell or death I mean, I get that those are a given for a willing disbeliever.

Ok, I do not believe you can have no faith.. you are going to put it into something.. a marriage, a career, a cause or whatever..

Romans 1:16-17 (New King James Version)

The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/25/2009 4:05:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/25/2009 3:51:59 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/25/2009 2:22:41 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/25/2009 1:50:47 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/23/2009 8:05:12 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:

Would you say that your faith in Christ is absolute? Would you say that for it to be any less than absolute would be unacceptable? That's a matter of 'how much.'

My faith, as any Christian will testify, varies according to circumstances etc. God even uses this 'undulation' as part of the salvation process.(it forces us to 'dig deep')
The point is that faith in any thing other than Jesus Christ is an absolute waste of time.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (New King James Version)
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


I grant you that time can be wasted in false faith. What if you choose to waste no time by not abiding by any faith at all? Is there an actual, concrete negative consequence you can point to for choosing not to abide by any faith? Outside of hell or death I mean, I get that those are a given for a willing disbeliever.

Ok, I do not believe you can have no faith.. you are going to put it into something.. a marriage, a career, a cause or whatever..

Romans 1:16-17 (New King James Version)

The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."


See, no. I don't have faith in anything. Maybe people, because you can't get anything done without them. I recognize that we don't understand the process whereby the universe was created, that all the physical laws we have observed could be rewritten tomorrow as the consequence of a cosmological event the details of which we are as of yet incapable of comprehending. I recognize that values are as prone to change as the shape of the earth or the positions of the stars in the sky, even though all these things may seem constant. I don't need a firmament to stand upon to find my peace though. I'm too amazed at all the changes going on to stand still long enough to feel nauseous over it.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Lexicaholic
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5/25/2009 6:03:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Also, there's a difference between faith and belief. I believe in many things, but beliefs can be challenged. Faith is uncompromising belief. That I do not have.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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5/26/2009 8:18:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/25/2009 6:03:20 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Also, there's a difference between faith and belief. I believe in many things, but beliefs can be challenged. Faith is uncompromising belief. That I do not have.

No, Faith is that which sustains you, keeps you human, keeps your hope alive etc.
Some of the things that use to sustain me: Disco & House music, The Simpsons, Charlie Kaufman films, Phillip K Dick books, Cycling and Skating.
Ok, I still cycle and sk8 but i don't rely on them in the same way.

So, think about it.. what sustains you?

Psalm 3:4-6 (New King James Version)

4 I cried to the LORD with my voice,
And He heard me from His holy hill. Selah

5 I lay down and slept;
I awoke, for the LORD sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people
Who have set themselves against me all around.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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5/27/2009 2:37:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/26/2009 8:18:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/25/2009 6:03:20 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Also, there's a difference between faith and belief. I believe in many things, but beliefs can be challenged. Faith is uncompromising belief. That I do not have.

No, Faith is that which sustains you, keeps you human, keeps your hope alive etc.
Some of the things that use to sustain me: Disco & House music, The Simpsons, Charlie Kaufman films, Phillip K Dick books, Cycling and Skating.
Ok, I still cycle and sk8 but i don't rely on them in the same way.

So, think about it.. what sustains you?

Psalm 3:4-6 (New King James Version)

4 I cried to the LORD with my voice,
And He heard me from His holy hill. Selah

5 I lay down and slept;
I awoke, for the LORD sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people
Who have set themselves against me all around.


Food and liquid, and the various biological processes that convert them into sustenance. In the more philosophical sense of keeping me mentally healthy, my boundless curiosity ensures that I always have some new development to examine and consider. So long as I am able to experience things, and can contemplate them, I am sustained.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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5/29/2009 6:22:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/27/2009 2:37:20 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/26/2009 8:18:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/25/2009 6:03:20 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Also, there's a difference between faith and belief. I believe in many things, but beliefs can be challenged. Faith is uncompromising belief. That I do not have.

No, Faith is that which sustains you, keeps you human, keeps your hope alive etc.
Some of the things that use to sustain me: Disco & House music, The Simpsons, Charlie Kaufman films, Phillip K Dick books, Cycling and Skating.
Ok, I still cycle and sk8 but i don't rely on them in the same way.

So, think about it.. what sustains you?

Psalm 3:4-6 (New King James Version)

4 I cried to the LORD with my voice,
And He heard me from His holy hill. Selah

5 I lay down and slept;
I awoke, for the LORD sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people
Who have set themselves against me all around.


Food and liquid, and the various biological processes that convert them into sustenance. In the more philosophical sense of keeping me mentally healthy, my boundless curiosity ensures that I always have some new development to examine and consider. So long as I am able to experience things, and can contemplate them, I am sustained.

I'm glad you mentioned food, because that brings us a little deeper: The reason we take communion (the eating of bread and wine) is that we symbolically eat Christ, Or more specifically eat His sacrifice.. He literally sustains us.

"new development to examine and consider. So long as I am able to experience things, and can contemplate them, I am sustained."

Have you seen the film Memento?

Revelation 22:17 (New King James Version)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/30/2009 11:59:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Have you seen the film Memento?


Yes indeed. While it would be annoying from the outward view of me viewing myself, the internal view would be that everything was new all the time, more or less. Additionally, I would need to contemplate the nature of personality and experience as it relates to me, which could be very interesting. Of course, a journal would be necessary, although I suppose I could make due with scribbling some notes to myself for a time. The point is, I would only be mildly alarmed at first, not utterly shocked, since I already have an ingrained sense of impermanence.

Also, you do eat, right?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/1/2009 1:28:32 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/30/2009 11:59:37 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Have you seen the film Memento?


Yes indeed. While it would be annoying from the outward view of me viewing myself, the internal view would be that everything was new all the time, more or less. Additionally, I would need to contemplate the nature of personality and experience as it relates to me, which could be very interesting. Of course, a journal would be necessary, although I suppose I could make due with scribbling some notes to myself for a time. The point is, I would only be mildly alarmed at first, not utterly shocked, since I already have an ingrained sense of impermanence.

The pivotal scene in the film is when he finally realises that he is simply playing a game with himself.. to give himself something to live for.. He then chooses to deceive himself.. chooses to forget that which he knows. This is a profound spiritual truth.

What have you chosen to forget? What have you chosen to delude yourself with?
Because we all have.

Also, you do eat, right?

Sure, but food and drink in this life are mere shadows of real substanance in the next, real Life.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/1/2009 4:12:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 1:28:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/30/2009 11:59:37 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Have you seen the film Memento?


Yes indeed. While it would be annoying from the outward view of me viewing myself, the internal view would be that everything was new all the time, more or less. Additionally, I would need to contemplate the nature of personality and experience as it relates to me, which could be very interesting. Of course, a journal would be necessary, although I suppose I could make due with scribbling some notes to myself for a time. The point is, I would only be mildly alarmed at first, not utterly shocked, since I already have an ingrained sense of impermanence.

The pivotal scene in the film is when he finally realises that he is simply playing a game with himself.. to give himself something to live for.. He then chooses to deceive himself.. chooses to forget that which he knows. This is a profound spiritual truth.

What have you chosen to forget? What have you chosen to delude yourself with?
Because we all have.


Also, you do eat, right?

Sure, but food and drink in this life are mere shadows of real substanance in the next, real Life.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.




Haven't done that, actually. Since I'm living to understand things, I have what I need to live for without playing any games on my self. Arguably, I once did. Once, for example, I attributed the cause of my failures to 'evil forces' and the source of suffering to the same. Having taken charge of my decisions and my failures as my own, I now feel substantially healthier. Recognizing the causes of my suffering through observation and consideration, I have found ways out without waiting a lifetime for them to end. Improvements in life = no need for a cause to live for.

As for the food, if you do eat then it is fair to say that you are not sustained alone by God. At least physically, that is. So, would it be fair to say then that the primary forms of sustenance you find comes in the form of providing a cause (to live for), namely the promise of salvation?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/1/2009 10:55:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 4:12:45 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/1/2009 1:28:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/30/2009 11:59:37 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Have you seen the film Memento?


Yes indeed. While it would be annoying from the outward view of me viewing myself, the internal view would be that everything was new all the time, more or less. Additionally, I would need to contemplate the nature of personality and experience as it relates to me, which could be very interesting. Of course, a journal would be necessary, although I suppose I could make due with scribbling some notes to myself for a time. The point is, I would only be mildly alarmed at first, not utterly shocked, since I already have an ingrained sense of impermanence.

The pivotal scene in the film is when he finally realises that he is simply playing a game with himself.. to give himself something to live for.. He then chooses to deceive himself.. chooses to forget that which he knows. This is a profound spiritual truth.

What have you chosen to forget? What have you chosen to delude yourself with?
Because we all have.


Also, you do eat, right?

Sure, but food and drink in this life are mere shadows of real substanance in the next, real Life.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.




Haven't done that, actually. Since I'm living to understand things, I have what I need to live for without playing any games on my self. Arguably, I once did. Once, for example, I attributed the cause of my failures to 'evil forces' and the source of suffering to the same. Having taken charge of my decisions and my failures as my own, I now feel substantially healthier. Recognizing the causes of my suffering through observation and consideration, I have found ways out without waiting a lifetime for them to end. Improvements in life = no need for a cause to live for.

Well, I certainly do not blame evil forces for everthing. I still had to choose to do wrong. For me being a Christian is about taking responsiblity for our actions.
I'm interested to know how you judge right from wrong. On feelings? on the zeitgeist? how? Is morality subjective or objective?

As for the food, if you do eat then it is fair to say that you are not sustained alone by God. At least physically, that is. So, would it be fair to say then that the primary forms of sustenance you find comes in the form of providing a cause (to live for), namely the promise of salvation?

Apart from my physical/temporal needs, I feed my new nature.. my eternal spirit (eternity begins within us when we make Christ our Lord, our 'righteousness') with the Bible, with Christian fellowship and with prayer and praise & worship.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/1/2009 3:54:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 10:55:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 4:12:45 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/1/2009 1:28:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/30/2009 11:59:37 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
Have you seen the film Memento?


Yes indeed. While it would be annoying from the outward view of me viewing myself, the internal view would be that everything was new all the time, more or less. Additionally, I would need to contemplate the nature of personality and experience as it relates to me, which could be very interesting. Of course, a journal would be necessary, although I suppose I could make due with scribbling some notes to myself for a time. The point is, I would only be mildly alarmed at first, not utterly shocked, since I already have an ingrained sense of impermanence.

The pivotal scene in the film is when he finally realises that he is simply playing a game with himself.. to give himself something to live for.. He then chooses to deceive himself.. chooses to forget that which he knows. This is a profound spiritual truth.

What have you chosen to forget? What have you chosen to delude yourself with?
Because we all have.


Also, you do eat, right?

Sure, but food and drink in this life are mere shadows of real substanance in the next, real Life.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.




Haven't done that, actually. Since I'm living to understand things, I have what I need to live for without playing any games on my self. Arguably, I once did. Once, for example, I attributed the cause of my failures to 'evil forces' and the source of suffering to the same. Having taken charge of my decisions and my failures as my own, I now feel substantially healthier. Recognizing the causes of my suffering through observation and consideration, I have found ways out without waiting a lifetime for them to end. Improvements in life = no need for a cause to live for.

Well, I certainly do not blame evil forces for everthing. I still had to choose to do wrong. For me being a Christian is about taking responsiblity for our actions.
I'm interested to know how you judge right from wrong. On feelings? on the zeitgeist? how? Is morality subjective or objective?

As for the food, if you do eat then it is fair to say that you are not sustained alone by God. At least physically, that is. So, would it be fair to say then that the primary forms of sustenance you find comes in the form of providing a cause (to live for), namely the promise of salvation?

Apart from my physical/temporal needs, I feed my new nature.. my eternal spirit (eternity begins within us when we make Christ our Lord, our 'righteousness') with the Bible, with Christian fellowship and with prayer and praise & worship.

In response to your question, that's actually a curious thing ... I spent a long time longing to do the 'right' thing, so I had a lot of time to think about morality, and to compare different ethical systems. One theme kept popping up: people who sacrifice for others are good, people who take at others' expense are bad. Now, I wondered to myself, why would this be? It didn't take me long to realize that a willingness to sacrifice oneself for others was a necessary survival instinct, something that needed to exist in order to keep the pack, that is to say, society, healthy.

This may sound very harsh and pessimistic, but it really isn't. Preserving society is as rational as it is instinctual (although one might argue that for humans reason and instinct are one and the same). A member of one's society should be willing to sacrifice itself for others of its own kind, because such sacrifices may be necessary to protect the greater good of the collective whole that is society. Even if one genetic lineage is extinguished, a multitude remain to flourish thanks to its loss. It is the inherent benefit of group behavior, and the reason why all animals form some kind of social organization.

The question, of course, becomes what type of behavioral routines one must adhere to in order to support society and fulfill your obligation to your group. Certainly recognizing that morality is a natural outgrowth of adaptive behavior rather than a spiritual imperative may tempt one to disregard morality altogether. But, really, what good would that do? Yes, you'd get ahead of everyone, for a time, if you didn't adhere to society's norms, mores and taboos while they still did, but then again, after a time, people would catch on. They too would begin to ignore society's norms, mores and taboos, and society would breakdown as self-sacrifice for the good of all became replaced by self indulgence for the benefit of oneself at the expense of the group. If society breaks down, even you lose your support group ... that's a net loss, and something one should logically want to avoid.

So I re-examined everything I had read on morality in religious and secular texts, and became convinced that you could boil universal right action down to these three principles: compassion, courage and humility. Compassion encourages you to have empathy for others and to see to their welfare, often at your own expense. This allows you to fulfill your obligation to preserving the group (by looking after its members). Courage gives you the resolve to act on your convictions regarding the proper display of compassion, and acts as a tool of social encouragement towards those observing your actions (i.e. it sets your actions up for observation). Humility prevents you from attributing your good deeds to your special significance, and therefore sets you up as an acceptable role model, the rule rather than the exception to it (i.e. transforms you into a model for adapting social behavior into).

Therefore, I resolved to contemplate my actions with compassion, act with courage and reflect upon my acts with humility. In this way I could influence others to do the same, and improve the social bonds that must be developed to preserve society. It has worked well for me and mine, too, though I am certainly not a perfect practitioner of my own belief system (and would not claim to be).

The short answer to your question then is that morals are subjective but based off a rational objective pursuit (survival of the population). The shorter answer is that ideally I try and set every action I take against the trinary moral qualifications I have already described above. It's certainly not the zeitgeist or feelings or beliefs, and it isn't easy to act properly without being provided assurance by others in the rightness of your conviction ... but it's sensible, and I'll take it for what it is.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/3/2009 3:53:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 3:54:40 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:

In response to your question, that's actually a curious thing ... I spent a long time longing to do the 'right' thing, so I had a lot of time to think about morality, and to compare different ethical systems. One theme kept popping up: people who sacrifice for others are good, people who take at others' expense are bad. Now, I wondered to myself, why would this be? It didn't take me long to realize that a willingness to sacrifice oneself for others was a necessary survival instinct, something that needed to exist in order to keep the pack, that is to say, society, healthy.

This may sound very harsh and pessimistic, but it really isn't. Preserving society is as rational as it is instinctual (although one might argue that for humans reason and instinct are one and the same). A member of one's society should be willing to sacrifice itself for others of its own kind, because such sacrifices may be necessary to protect the greater good of the collective whole that is society. Even if one genetic lineage is extinguished, a multitude remain to flourish thanks to its loss. It is the inherent benefit of group behavior, and the reason why all animals form some kind of social organization.

The question, of course, becomes what type of behavioral routines one must adhere to in order to support society and fulfill your obligation to your group. Certainly recognizing that morality is a natural outgrowth of adaptive behavior rather than a spiritual imperative may tempt one to disregard morality altogether. But, really, what good would that do? Yes, you'd get ahead of everyone, for a time, if you didn't adhere to society's norms, mores and taboos while they still did, but then again, after a time, people would catch on. They too would begin to ignore society's norms, mores and taboos, and society would breakdown as self-sacrifice for the good of all became replaced by self indulgence for the benefit of oneself at the expense of the group. If society breaks down, even you lose your support group ... that's a net loss, and something one should logically want to avoid.

So I re-examined everything I had read on morality in religious and secular texts, and became convinced that you could boil universal right action down to these three principles: compassion, courage and humility. Compassion encourages you to have empathy for others and to see to their welfare, often at your own expense. This allows you to fulfill your obligation to preserving the group (by looking after its members). Courage gives you the resolve to act on your convictions regarding the proper display of compassion, and acts as a tool of social encouragement towards those observing your actions (i.e. it sets your actions up for observation). Humility prevents you from attributing your good deeds to your special significance, and therefore sets you up as an acceptable role model, the rule rather than the exception to it (i.e. transforms you into a model for adapting social behavior into).

Therefore, I resolved to contemplate my actions with compassion, act with courage and reflect upon my acts with humility. In this way I could influence others to do the same, and improve the social bonds that must be developed to preserve society. It has worked well for me and mine, too, though I am certainly not a perfect practitioner of my own belief system (and would not claim to be).

The short answer to your question then is that morals are subjective but based off a rational objective pursuit (survival of the population). The shorter answer is that ideally I try and set every action I take against the trinary moral qualifications I have already described above. It's certainly not the zeitgeist or feelings or beliefs, and it isn't easy to act properly without being provided assurance by others in the rightness of your conviction ... but it's sensible, and I'll take it for what it is.

O.K...
Thank you for that somewhat long-winded response.
Would you die for these principles?

Colossians 2:8 (The Message)

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.

The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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6/3/2009 5:22:40 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 3:53:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

O.K...
Thank you for that somewhat long-winded response.
Would you die for these principles?


Sorry about the length. You did ask a rather difficult question however, so length of response should be no surprise. Short answer to your question: yes. But as I would prefer if everyone lived, only in a situation where I knew my death would prevent harm to others, or provide some lasting benefit to others.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/4/2009 4:45:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 5:22:40 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 3:53:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

O.K...
Thank you for that somewhat long-winded response.
Would you die for these principles?


Sorry about the length. You did ask a rather difficult question however, so length of response should be no surprise. Short answer to your question: yes. But as I would prefer if everyone lived, only in a situation where I knew my death would prevent harm to others, or provide some lasting benefit to others.

Sorry to be a stickler but you did not answer the question.
Would you die for a principle? not a person or people.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/4/2009 6:33:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 4:45:23 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/3/2009 5:22:40 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 3:53:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

O.K...
Thank you for that somewhat long-winded response.
Would you die for these principles?


Sorry about the length. You did ask a rather difficult question however, so length of response should be no surprise. Short answer to your question: yes. But as I would prefer if everyone lived, only in a situation where I knew my death would prevent harm to others, or provide some lasting benefit to others.

Sorry to be a stickler but you did not answer the question.
Would you die for a principle? not a person or people.

Colossians 2:8 (New King James Version)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


A principle is only useful if it provides a benefit to people.
So no.
Would you give me a situation where dying for a principle does not involve people?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.