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How can anyone deny miracles occur?

tyler90az
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12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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12/30/2011 4:11:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

*cowers in a corner and waits for the Atheists to arrive*
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M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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12/30/2011 4:22:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Same with alien abductions. There have been thousands of reports.
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/30/2011 4:27:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.

That.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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12/30/2011 4:31:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:22:35 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Same with alien abductions. There have been thousands of reports.

It is interesting to note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be one of the only Christian denominations that is still believable if aliens are discovered. Most other Christian religions completely deny Aliens.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/30/2011 4:36:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.

So, I met Jesus because I wanted to, I was irrational, combined with a natural phenomena (I ate spicy salsa)?

This is nothing more than a circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy toward supernaturalists. You are claiming we have these supernatural experiences due to wanting them.

Second, you seem to ignore that experts, Theologians, do indeed offer an expert opinion.

Third, you deny the absolute rediculous number of supernatural claims. In America alone, there is over 50% supernatural claims of experiences.

Fourth, the abject quality of these events are astounding and to write them off as wanting them is absurd. Normal people, never believing in Ghosts, wanting their home invaded by spirits torturing them is not plausible.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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12/30/2011 4:38:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:31:17 PM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:22:35 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Same with alien abductions. There have been thousands of reports.

It is interesting to note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be one of the only Christian denominations that is still believable if aliens are discovered. Most other Christian religions completely deny Aliens.

Bigfoot too. Don't forget about bigfoot.

http://www.bfro.net...
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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12/30/2011 4:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:31:17 PM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:22:35 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Same with alien abductions. There have been thousands of reports.

It is interesting to note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be one of the only Christian denominations that is still believable if aliens are discovered. Most other Christian religions completely deny Aliens.

Yet another reason why the Mormon church is not Recognized as a branch of Christianity by most Christians.....
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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12/30/2011 4:40:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:38:04 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:31:17 PM, tyler90az wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:22:35 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Same with alien abductions. There have been thousands of reports.

It is interesting to note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be one of the only Christian denominations that is still believable if aliens are discovered. Most other Christian religions completely deny Aliens.

Bigfoot too. Don't forget about bigfoot.

http://www.bfro.net...

Whoa 72 in Indiana? I feel less secure.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/30/2011 4:43:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:36:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.

So, I met Jesus because I wanted to, I was irrational, combined with a natural phenomena (I ate spicy salsa)?

I find your faith in people's ability to imagine things quite lacking. Humans really do have faith and this faith can be put in anything so strongly they can believe whatever they need to. It happens to abuse victims, Nazis did it with the Holocaust, people with mental disorders, etc. This is not to say everyone is delusional, but we do possess an incredible amount of belief. Plus, you DO want to believe in God, don't you?


This is nothing more than a circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy toward supernaturalists. You are claiming we have these supernatural experiences due to wanting them.

Or expecting them. Or by perpetuating thousand-year-old myths and tales.


Second, you seem to ignore that experts, Theologians, do indeed offer an expert opinion.

... which is that you're right? Okay. Theologians believe they're right. So cool.


Third, you deny the absolute rediculous number of supernatural claims. In America alone, there is over 50% supernatural claims of experiences.

I don't deny the amount. I simply say they all experience these events in the same way and thus come to similar conclusions.


Fourth, the abject quality of these events are astounding and to write them off as wanting them is absurd. Normal people, never believing in Ghosts, wanting their home invaded by spirits torturing them is not plausible.

It's not so much that, as more that Ghosts are such a strong belief in our society, that IF something strange occurs, that's all they know to turn to. From that point, their personal experience takes over everything, because that's how humans are wired. If YOU experienced it, you believe it's true. Obviously.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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12/30/2011 4:49:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:43:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:36:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.

So, I met Jesus because I wanted to, I was irrational, combined with a natural phenomena (I ate spicy salsa)?

I find your faith in people's ability to imagine things quite lacking. Humans really do have faith and this faith can be put in anything so strongly they can believe whatever they need to. It happens to abuse victims, Nazis did it with the Holocaust, people with mental disorders, etc. This is not to say everyone is delusional, but we do possess an incredible amount of belief. Plus, you DO want to believe in God, don't you?


This is nothing more than a circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy toward supernaturalists. You are claiming we have these supernatural experiences due to wanting them.

Or expecting them. Or by perpetuating thousand-year-old myths and tales.


Second, you seem to ignore that experts, Theologians, do indeed offer an expert opinion.

... which is that you're right? Okay. Theologians believe they're right. So cool.


Third, you deny the absolute rediculous number of supernatural claims. In America alone, there is over 50% supernatural claims of experiences.

I don't deny the amount. I simply say they all experience these events in the same way and thus come to similar conclusions.


Fourth, the abject quality of these events are astounding and to write them off as wanting them is absurd. Normal people, never believing in Ghosts, wanting their home invaded by spirits torturing them is not plausible.

It's not so much that, as more that Ghosts are such a strong belief in our society, that IF something strange occurs, that's all they know to turn to. From that point, their personal experience takes over everything, because that's how humans are wired. If YOU experienced it, you believe it's true. Obviously.

Yea, the Christians sure have the quantity. They just don't have the quality.
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/30/2011 4:50:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

So, I met Jesus because I wanted to, I was irrational, combined with a natural phenomena (I ate spicy salsa)?

I don't get it. Are you saying you personally met Jesus?

This is nothing more than a circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy toward supernaturalists. You are claiming we have these supernatural experiences due to wanting them.

Basic psychology. Things are become far more apparent if you want them, which leads to a sense of warped reality. I'm not claiming you have supernatural experiences, I'm claiming you falsely believe them to be supernatural.

Second, you seem to ignore that experts, Theologians, do indeed offer an expert opinion.

LoL. A theologian is an expert of theology in the same way I'm an expert on Harry Potter. I know the story, but I can't proclaim it as evidence to supernatural occurrences.

Third, you deny the absolute rediculous number of supernatural claims. In America alone, there is over 50% supernatural claims of experiences.


Do you remember the book "The Secret"? People were convinced by it because they thought something would happen (and the vast majority of time it didn't), and on the off chance that it did, they thought it was because of the 'secret'.

Fourth, the abject quality of these events are astounding and to write them off as wanting them is absurd. Normal people, never believing in Ghosts, wanting their home invaded by spirits torturing them is not plausible.

When something odd happens, it's easier to pass it off as a miracle than to attempt to discern what actually occured.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/30/2011 5:11:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Ok lets get this straight, when we talk miracles we are talking about divine action that breaks natural law (as far as we know it).

Show me one person who (Calling upon God) can heal an amputee. I will trade all the assertions in the world of miracles (always with no or flimsy evidence to go with it) for one person who can back up their miracle claim for all to see making no excuses.

Here is my prediction, there isn't one, you can't find one. You will find a huge amount of "claims" of the miracles, you will find all the excuses in the world to justify the lack of testablility of miracle claims.

Lack of test ability is the big RED FLAG here.

Are they all lies ? No, it is possible to actually truly believe in your own falsehood. There is a reason why science likes to produce double blind tests and such, its to get rid of the confirmation bias.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
RoyLatham
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12/30/2011 5:14:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A "miraculous thing" is the occurrence of low probability event or the occurrence of an event that the person cannot explain. Winning a big lottery is "miraculous" for the winner. It's more probable that a person will die in a traffic accident on the way to buying the ticket than that to win. Seeing a rare natural events like a triple rainbow or the green flash could be thought miraculous. Certain kinds of cancers have a spontaneous remission rate of about 20%, producing "miraculous" recoveries. Other diseases are subject to miraculous spontaneous remission.

What is miraculous is subjective. So miraculous events do exist. Events that contradict the laws of nature don't exist.
Illegalcombatant
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12/30/2011 5:18:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:14:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A "miraculous thing" is the occurrence of low probability event or the occurrence of an event that the person cannot explain. Winning a big lottery is "miraculous" for the winner. It's more probable that a person will die in a traffic accident on the way to buying the ticket than that to win. Seeing a rare natural events like a triple rainbow or the green flash could be thought miraculous. Certain kinds of cancers have a spontaneous remission rate of about 20%, producing "miraculous" recoveries. Other diseases are subject to miraculous spontaneous remission.

That's why I defined what a miraculous event is.

What is miraculous is subjective. So miraculous events do exist. Events that contradict the laws of nature don't exist.

Naturalism...........BOO..............HISS.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/30/2011 5:22:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 4:43:19 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:36:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:12:42 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 12/30/2011 4:08:25 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Millions of people have claimed to have miraculous things happen to them. Are they all lies? Is everyone who has claimed to experience a miracle crazy?

Your wording is interesting. I'd say rather that it feeds into people's ability to believe what they want to believe. It's more of a lie to oneself; not a lie for the sake of lying. And no, they're not crazy, they're just not necessarily rational when it comes to explaining it. Sometimes, people find it easier to say "miracle" and move on with their life than to be "I wonder why that happened" and look into it.

So simplicity, a religious bias, a WANT to believe, and lack of expert opinion would contribute to this.

So, I met Jesus because I wanted to, I was irrational, combined with a natural phenomena (I ate spicy salsa)?

I find your faith in people's ability to imagine things quite lacking. Humans really do have faith and this faith can be put in anything so strongly they can believe whatever they need to. It happens to abuse victims, Nazis did it with the Holocaust, people with mental disorders, etc. This is not to say everyone is delusional, but we do possess an incredible amount of belief. Plus, you DO want to believe in God, don't you?

If what you said is true, why is your viewpoint not susceptible to the exact same mantra?
Atheists abuse their victims because of their Faith in their belief in 'no God' and their faith in the beleif of 'no divine retribution'. They did it in Russia, China, heck over 30 countries when they took over.
You DO NOT want to believe in God, do you not?

See everything you asserted can be applied to your position equally.

What you are calling faith is legitimately called a presupposition. Though people can have presuppositions, clearly presuppositions do not 'invent' experiences.



This is nothing more than a circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy toward supernaturalists. You are claiming we have these supernatural experiences due to wanting them.

Or expecting them. Or by perpetuating thousand-year-old myths and tales.

So you committ three circumstantial ad hominem fallacies in a row.... this makes it not fallacious?
How does three fallacies make a logically sound argument? You sound like Lewis Wolpert.


Second, you seem to ignore that experts, Theologians, do indeed offer an expert opinion.

... which is that you're right? Okay. Theologians believe they're right. So cool.

They are experts in the field. You said there were none. There are literally hundreds of thousands.


Third, you deny the absolute rediculous number of supernatural claims. In America alone, there is over 50% supernatural claims of experiences.

I don't deny the amount. I simply say they all experience these events in the same way and thus come to similar conclusions.

So are you laying a circumstantial ad hominem fallacy on the majority of Americans without qualms. I thought Atheists claimed logic and reason as their approach. If this is your brand, I leave you to it!



Fourth, the abject quality of these events are astounding and to write them off as wanting them is absurd. Normal people, never believing in Ghosts, wanting their home invaded by spirits torturing them is not plausible.

It's not so much that, as more that Ghosts are such a strong belief in our society, that IF something strange occurs, that's all they know to turn to. From that point, their personal experience takes over everything, because that's how humans are wired. If YOU experienced it, you believe it's true. Obviously.

No scientific data has ever been peer reviewed and mainstream validated, for you to assert a qualitative assement of how humans are wired to handle supernatural events.
Second, you are fallaciously equivocating something strange, with a supernatural home invasion, or a discussion I had with an Angel, or meeting Jesus.

Sure, you might be right, if a Fan kick's on without me doing it, I would wonder why and have no problem with a supernatural explanation. My wonderment, would stop if a fan started running while not being plugged in, the wall bangs and I hear voices telling me to die.

Quantitative data suggests, nothing 'normal' that is considered natural would account for such occurances.
However, supernatural commonplace normal occurances are attributed to these three consecutive events.

We see that "leaping" to the commonplace explanation, being spirits, is indeed expected and a normal response to such an occurance happening.

As there is very limited (and I am being generous here) natural occurances that would cause walls banging and voices whispering in your ear, the more reasonable conclusion would be to go with the normal explanation, that the house is indeed haunted.
Gileandos
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12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.
Gileandos
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12/30/2011 5:28:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:14:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
A "miraculous thing" is the occurrence of low probability event or the occurrence of an event that the person cannot explain. Winning a big lottery is "miraculous" for the winner. It's more probable that a person will die in a traffic accident on the way to buying the ticket than that to win. Seeing a rare natural events like a triple rainbow or the green flash could be thought miraculous. Certain kinds of cancers have a spontaneous remission rate of about 20%, producing "miraculous" recoveries. Other diseases are subject to miraculous spontaneous remission.

What is miraculous is subjective. So miraculous events do exist. Events that contradict the laws of nature don't exist.

Roy,
To be clear in your viewpoint...

- Their may be unknown laws of nature?
- Laws of nature can be controlled and manipulated by superior beings, as we can easily manipulate them?
- There are also known metaphysical laws that are known to exist. These are not considered natural or do you classify them natural?
- Supernatural laws possibly exist?
- Extra-dimensional laws are known to plausibly exist?
Dan4reason
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12/30/2011 5:36:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.

What kinds of experiences are most common?
Gileandos
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12/30/2011 5:45:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:36:58 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.

What kinds of experiences are most common?

Angels, Demons, followed by Prophetic Visions and visions of Jesus.

For example:
Africa is now over 60% Christian and is directly attributed to Visions of Jesus.
Dan4reason
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12/30/2011 5:49:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:45:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:36:58 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.

What kinds of experiences are most common?

Angels, Demons, followed by Prophetic Visions and visions of Jesus.

For example:
Africa is now over 60% Christian and is directly attributed to Visions of Jesus.

Can you give me a few sources that describe these visions?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Gileandos
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12/30/2011 5:56:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:49:17 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:45:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:36:58 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.

What kinds of experiences are most common?

Angels, Demons, followed by Prophetic Visions and visions of Jesus.

For example:
Africa is now over 60% Christian and is directly attributed to Visions of Jesus.

Can you give me a few sources that describe these visions?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I have no problem with that statement, but again, these are commonplace claims not extraordinary ones.

Feel free to google away. I will get to it when I get to it.
Physik
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12/30/2011 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If what you said is true, why is your viewpoint not susceptible to the exact same mantra?
Atheists abuse their victims because of their Faith in their belief in 'no God' and their faith in the beleif of 'no divine retribution'. They did it in Russia, China, heck over 30 countries when they took over.
You DO NOT want to believe in God, do you not?

See everything you asserted can be applied to your position equally.

Atheism is not the belief in the non-existence of god, it is the absence of theism. The suffix 'a' simply means 'absence of'. Amoral, absence of morals. Asexual, absence of sex. Atheism, absence of theism.

Don't presume to give label us by a false definition of the word. What your're describing it an Anti-Theist, not an atheist.

To make as clear as I possible can: All children are born with an absence of belief, they are therefore born atheist. This makes atheism the default human setting. We do not have to 'place faith' in the default human setting. The burden of proof rests on the person making claims that differ from the default standpoint, in this case, theism.

When you can't provide adequate evidence for those claims, yet believe them anyway, that is faith. It does NOT go both ways.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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12/30/2011 6:01:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:57:39 PM, Physik wrote:
If what you said is true, why is your viewpoint not susceptible to the exact same mantra?
Atheists abuse their victims because of their Faith in their belief in 'no God' and their faith in the beleif of 'no divine retribution'. They did it in Russia, China, heck over 30 countries when they took over.
You DO NOT want to believe in God, do you not?

See everything you asserted can be applied to your position equally.

Atheism is not the belief in the non-existence of god, it is the absence of theism. The suffix 'a' simply means 'absence of'. Amoral, absence of morals. Asexual, absence of sex. Atheism, absence of theism.

Don't presume to give label us by a false definition of the word. What your're describing it an Anti-Theist, not an atheist.

To make as clear as I possible can: All children are born with an absence of belief, they are therefore born atheist. This makes atheism the default human setting. We do not have to 'place faith' in the default human setting. The burden of proof rests on the person making claims that differ from the default standpoint, in this case, theism.

When you can't provide adequate evidence for those claims, yet believe them anyway, that is faith. It does NOT go both ways.

I was clear, should you choose to read further down that what he used as faith, was in fact correctly called a presupposition.

So I used Faith the same way he choose to.

Please read more carefully.

If you swap out faith with presupposition makes the entire paragraph completely apply to you as an atheist. Your presupposition there is no God and no divine retribution comforts you as you abuse your enemies.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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12/30/2011 6:05:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:56:48 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:49:17 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:45:15 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:36:58 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:25:00 PM, Gileandos wrote:
@Dan,
Christians have the quality hands down. Their experiences are massively consistent when they have supernatural experiences.

What kinds of experiences are most common?

Angels, Demons, followed by Prophetic Visions and visions of Jesus.

For example:
Africa is now over 60% Christian and is directly attributed to Visions of Jesus.

Can you give me a few sources that describe these visions?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I have no problem with that statement, but again, these are commonplace claims not extraordinary ones.

Feel free to google away. I will get to it when I get to it.

Don't give me a reading list for evidence. If all you will present for evidence for the supernatural is a claim that alot of people see visions of angels, demons, and Jesus, then you have to met your share of evidence, and I win this debate by default.

What you need to do is describe these visions further.
You need to provide more details info about these visions and the circumstances in which the visions take place?. How many people have had these visions? Any examples?

If you want, you can provide links. It will be helpful if you show me where the information proving your claims is, if the link is very long.

As I said before, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Physik
Posts: 686
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12/30/2011 6:06:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 6:01:14 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 12/30/2011 5:57:39 PM, Physik wrote:
If what you said is true, why is your viewpoint not susceptible to the exact same mantra?
Atheists abuse their victims because of their Faith in their belief in 'no God' and their faith in the beleif of 'no divine retribution'. They did it in Russia, China, heck over 30 countries when they took over.
You DO NOT want to believe in God, do you not?

See everything you asserted can be applied to your position equally.

Atheism is not the belief in the non-existence of god, it is the absence of theism. The suffix 'a' simply means 'absence of'. Amoral, absence of morals. Asexual, absence of sex. Atheism, absence of theism.

Don't presume to give label us by a false definition of the word. What your're describing it an Anti-Theist, not an atheist.

To make as clear as I possible can: All children are born with an absence of belief, they are therefore born atheist. This makes atheism the default human setting. We do not have to 'place faith' in the default human setting. The burden of proof rests on the person making claims that differ from the default standpoint, in this case, theism.

When you can't provide adequate evidence for those claims, yet believe them anyway, that is faith. It does NOT go both ways.

I was clear, should you choose to read further down that what he used as faith, was in fact correctly called a presupposition.

So I used Faith the same way he choose to.

Please read more carefully.

If you swap out faith with presupposition makes the entire paragraph completely apply to you as an atheist. Your presupposition there is no God and no divine retribution comforts you as you abuse your enemies.

It's only a presupposition in it has an inherent flaw or goes against reason. Point out the flaw or irrationality with what I said.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/30/2011 6:21:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/30/2011 5:28:29 PM, Gileandos wrote:

Roy,
To be clear in your viewpoint...

- Their may be unknown laws of nature?

Yes, if they seem miraculous.

- Laws of nature can be controlled and manipulated by superior beings, as we can easily manipulate them?

Sure, per Clarke's "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

- There are also known metaphysical laws that are known to exist. These are not considered natural or do you classify them natural?

That's religious talk that I cannot parse.

- Supernatural laws possibly exist?

No, by definition, laws of nature are natural, not supernatural.

- Extra-dimensional laws are known to plausibly exist?

Yes, for example it is a plausible explanation of wave-particle duality. There are millions of unsolved scientific problems, so surely new laws of nature will be discovered. Its also possible we are all trapped in a Matrix-style computer simulation run by a Great Hacker in the Sky. It cannot be disproved.

My viewpoint is just that things with unknown causes should not be claimed to be known to be supernatural. They should be identified as unknown.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/30/2011 6:36:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
babies are born. Miracle right there.

earth is the only known planet that can support life. another.

resurection. lol

USSR was defeated. 4th

I was a liberal for a year once. 5th

when I was liberal the world didn't explode because I made the world off it's balace. the most true one so far, other then 5, 6th

lol examples right there. wait one more

after I became un-liberal I began to hate them and turned into this 7th
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross