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Marx's Condemnation of Religion

royalpaladin
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1/6/2012 5:05:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx notes,

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

Discuss.
royalpaladin
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1/6/2012 7:02:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since the theists are not responding, I am going to assume that they concede that everything said here is completely correct and that the understand that religion is detrimental.
royalpaladin
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1/6/2012 7:03:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/6/2012 7:02:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Since the theists are not responding, I am going to assume that they concede that everything said here is completely correct and that the understand that religion is detrimental.

they understand
OberHerr
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1/7/2012 12:24:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Cause Marx sure was right about EVERYTHING he said. Yup.
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ConservativePolitico
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1/7/2012 12:26:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

Not being goaded into a pointless debate about the wise words of Marx. Everyone knows he was right about everything which is why we're one big happy global communist family that shares all resources and are equal atheists under the statue of Lenin.
OberHerr
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1/7/2012 12:30:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/7/2012 12:26:33 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

Not being goaded into a pointless debate about the wise words of Marx. Everyone knows he was right about everything which is why we're one big happy global communist family that shares all resources and are equal atheists under the statue of Lenin.

+1
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royalpaladin
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1/7/2012 7:49:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/7/2012 12:26:33 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

Not being goaded into a pointless debate about the wise words of Marx. Everyone knows he was right about everything which is why we're one big happy global communist family that shares all resources and are equal atheists under the statue of Lenin.

You are avoiding the debate because you know that this piece of his analysis is correct.

Also, just because we have not followed his ideas does not mean that he is wrong. The Constitution must be wrong also because the Patriot Act violates it, right? Same with Ayn Rand's philosophy and Milton Friedman.
16kadams
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1/7/2012 8:00:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
like marx was correct about 1% of the time
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
popculturepooka
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1/7/2012 8:04:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/6/2012 7:02:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Since the theists are not responding, I am going to assume that they concede that everything said here is completely correct and that the understand that religion is detrimental.

lol. I simply just don't care what Marx had to say.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/7/2012 8:08:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/7/2012 7:49:15 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/7/2012 12:26:33 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

Not being goaded into a pointless debate about the wise words of Marx. Everyone knows he was right about everything which is why we're one big happy global communist family that shares all resources and are equal atheists under the statue of Lenin.

You are avoiding the debate because you know that this piece of his analysis is correct.

Also, just because we have not followed his ideas does not mean that he is wrong. The Constitution must be wrong also because the Patriot Act violates it, right? Same with Ayn Rand's philosophy and Milton Friedman.

We "avoid" it because none of us like Marx at all, and therefore we don't care what he thought, or what he didn't think. Just because we don't say anything doesn't mean the we agreed.
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OberHerr
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1/8/2012 2:15:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/8/2012 2:13:40 PM, HillbillyHumanist wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

The Rapture was today.....

Here, try reading above your post, and above that, and at the bottom of page one, and a few above those.

But, sadly it wasn't. :(
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HillbillyHumanist
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1/8/2012 2:25:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/8/2012 2:15:28 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/8/2012 2:13:40 PM, HillbillyHumanist wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

The Rapture was today.....

Here, try reading above your post, and above that, and at the bottom of page one, and a few above those.

But, sadly it wasn't. :(

So?
OberHerr
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1/8/2012 2:26:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/8/2012 2:25:05 PM, HillbillyHumanist wrote:
At 1/8/2012 2:15:28 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/8/2012 2:13:40 PM, HillbillyHumanist wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

The Rapture was today.....

Here, try reading above your post, and above that, and at the bottom of page one, and a few above those.

But, sadly it wasn't. :(

So?

Shows our responses.
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/8/2012 3:52:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/8/2012 2:13:40 PM, HillbillyHumanist wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:29:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Bump. Where are all of the theists?

The Rapture was today.....
lol
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/8/2012 4:00:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/7/2012 8:04:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/6/2012 7:02:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Since the theists are not responding, I am going to assume that they concede that everything said here is completely correct and that the understand that religion is detrimental.

lol. I simply just don't care what Marx had to say.

Ok, then just treat it as if it were my theory. Do you have a response?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/8/2012 4:20:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/6/2012 5:05:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx notes,

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

Discuss.

As you are asserting this is your theory, I will make some clear points of note and bow out:

This response is of low intellect, anecdoctal assertions and a fallacious appeal to emotion.

Stalin's Russia, Mao's China etc etc... did not work. Religion proved not be an opiate but a "healing balm" for real suffering, divinely given.

When religion was removed in the Atheistic states real suffering exploded and spiralled out of control.
royalpaladin
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1/9/2012 10:46:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 3:43:06 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Y'mean Moses Karl Marx? Who trained to be a priest and attended theological college?

How does this disprove his argument?
royalpaladin
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1/9/2012 10:49:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/8/2012 4:20:55 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:05:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx notes,

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

Discuss.

As you are asserting this is your theory, I will make some clear points of note and bow out:

This response is of low intellect, anecdoctal assertions and a fallacious appeal to emotion.

Stalin's Russia, Mao's China etc etc... did not work. Religion proved not be an opiate but a "healing balm" for real suffering, divinely given.

When religion was removed in the Atheistic states real suffering exploded and spiralled out of control.

An example of a proper, well-ordered atheist society is Japan. Their reaction to the tsunamis and examples of self-sacrifice far exceed anything that would have resulted from American society. Religion is not a healing balm; rather, it is a cause for destruction because it simply prevents us from promoting our welfare in life. My evidence is not anecdotal because it is based on history; it is clear that you have not yet learned how to debate properly.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/9/2012 11:06:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 10:49:14 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/8/2012 4:20:55 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:05:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx notes,

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

Discuss.

As you are asserting this is your theory, I will make some clear points of note and bow out:

This response is of low intellect, anecdoctal assertions and a fallacious appeal to emotion.

Stalin's Russia, Mao's China etc etc... did not work. Religion proved not be an opiate but a "healing balm" for real suffering, divinely given.

When religion was removed in the Atheistic states real suffering exploded and spiralled out of control.

An example of a proper, well-ordered atheist society is Japan. Their reaction to the tsunamis and examples of self-sacrifice far exceed anything that would have resulted from American society. Religion is not a healing balm; rather, it is a cause for destruction because it simply prevents us from promoting our welfare in life. My evidence is not anecdotal because it is based on history; it is clear that you have not yet learned how to debate properly.

Japan is not secular atheists.
They classified Shinto Buddhism as atheism as well. Shinto is a Judaic religion that adopted a Buddhist philosophy. This is still theism.
The study just labeled the buddhists as atheists ignoring the intertwining of Shintoism.
http://rationalwiki.org...

to quote:
". For example, a survey of international atheism statistics suggests that 65% of Japanese are atheists,[8] however, another survey from the same source indicates that between 50% and 90% of Japanese are Buddhists.[9] The confusion comes from the fact that Buddhism does not fit into a Western dichotomy of theism and atheism, and that many Japanese citizens take part in Buddhist observances and festivals without considering themselves to be religious.

Similarly, Shinto, a religion rooted in Japanese folklore and tradition, is compatible with Buddhism, and the two have been intertwined in Japanese culture for over a thousand years, although they were forcibly separated during the Meiji era (1868 to 1945). Christianity has a very unique status in Japan. Despite the fact that it was illegal in Japan during the Edo period (1603 to 1868), after the American occupation of Japan after World War II, and the romanticism of all things American, Christianity became "popular" in a very secular way. Today, the Christian Cross is a very popular piece of jewelry for women and girls. (On a TV drama, for example, you are likely to see the main character wear a cross in at least one of the 11 episodes), Weddings in Christian church are increasingly popular[10] to the point that over 90% are Christian-style[11] (followed sometimes by a second wedding in traditional garb), and many people have adapted to "god bless" or "good god" (using Kami as the term for god) as expressions of doubt, fear, and joy - while not believing in that very god. In a similar vein, Christmas is a huge holiday there, complete with Santa, Christmas trees and decorations, and yet very little knowledge about what is actually being celebrated. "

Japan went from isolationism, to Emporer worship, to a mesh of a spiritual belief that is a cocaphony of chaos.
That is not atheism.

Additionally, they have a culture of Honor unlike Russia and China when Atheism took over.
Such a culture would be a moderating force to selfish ideals as secularism promotes.

To compound it,
I could easily anecdotally point to any self sacrifice that existed by example was the Shinto Jews rather than any of the atheists. Heck, I could even go further and cite examples of selfish displays in Japan and claim that is the affect of atheism.
Which would be wrong for me to do so but would place the burden of proof on you to give thousands of examples of selflessness under terror performed by atheists.

You have no studied grounds for your assertions. That is by definition anecdotal.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/9/2012 11:07:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Royal Paladin,
And you still have to deal with the fact that all Atheistic States like Russia and China perpetuated and caused more suffering in its brief stint, than all religions combined throughout history.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/9/2012 11:10:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wasn't aware you had to be right about everything to be right about one thing. Good to know. Goodbye Descartes, goodbye Plato, goodbye everyone...
Gileandos
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1/9/2012 11:30:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
@RoyalP
Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

I still have yet to find one historian citing evidence for this claim.
Is this just what you speculated to have happened?

As to the actual factual data:
First point of note: Christianity was real to the slaves

Harriet Tubman had God speaking her and told her to lead her people out of the south.
http://www.caroleweatherford.com...
Great book.

Second point of note:
Christian evangelists converted them to Christianity.

http://www.gcah.org...

John Wesley from the start in America baptized slaves, believing them to be real people and not animals.

Evangelism was alive and active from the start.

Christians supported slavery yes, but Christianity defeated this secular belief.

Slavery in the Bible was nothing like slavery in the Americas governed by evil people.
nonentity
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1/9/2012 11:44:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/7/2012 8:04:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/6/2012 7:02:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Since the theists are not responding, I am going to assume that they concede that everything said here is completely correct and that the understand that religion is detrimental.

lol. I simply just don't care what Marx had to say.

Really? Studies show a strong negative correlation between religiosity and standard of living. You don't think Marx's statement that religion is the opium of the people has any merit? Current research supports what he had to say about that.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/9/2012 11:45:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 11:30:18 AM, Gileandos wrote:
@RoyalP
Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

I still have yet to find one historian citing evidence for this claim.
Is this just what you speculated to have happened?

As to the actual factual data:
First point of note: Christianity was real to the slaves

Harriet Tubman had God speaking her and told her to lead her people out of the south.
http://www.caroleweatherford.com...
Great book.

Second point of note:
Christian evangelists converted them to Christianity.

http://www.gcah.org...

John Wesley from the start in America baptized slaves, believing them to be real people and not animals.

Evangelism was alive and active from the start.

Christians supported slavery yes, but Christianity defeated this secular belief.

Slavery in the Bible was nothing like slavery in the Americas governed by evil people.

Read the works of Helen Ellerbe.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/9/2012 11:46:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 11:06:01 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/9/2012 10:49:14 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/8/2012 4:20:55 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/6/2012 5:05:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In the Communist Manifesto, Marx notes,

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

Example: When slavemasters owned slaves in the 1800s, they forcibly converted them to Christianity in order to mitigate the likelihood of rebellion. The theory was that if they followed the Bible, which told them to obey their masters, and if they were told that they would receive their rewards for their suffering in heaven because their life on Earth did not matter, they would be less likely to resist.

Discuss.

As you are asserting this is your theory, I will make some clear points of note and bow out:

This response is of low intellect, anecdoctal assertions and a fallacious appeal to emotion.

Stalin's Russia, Mao's China etc etc... did not work. Religion proved not be an opiate but a "healing balm" for real suffering, divinely given.

When religion was removed in the Atheistic states real suffering exploded and spiralled out of control.

An example of a proper, well-ordered atheist society is Japan. Their reaction to the tsunamis and examples of self-sacrifice far exceed anything that would have resulted from American society. Religion is not a healing balm; rather, it is a cause for destruction because it simply prevents us from promoting our welfare in life. My evidence is not anecdotal because it is based on history; it is clear that you have not yet learned how to debate properly.

Japan is not secular atheists.
They classified Shinto Buddhism as atheism as well. Shinto is a Judaic religion that adopted a Buddhist philosophy. This is still theism.
The study just labeled the buddhists as atheists ignoring the intertwining of Shintoism.
http://rationalwiki.org...

to quote:
". For example, a survey of international atheism statistics suggests that 65% of Japanese are atheists,[8] however, another survey from the same source indicates that between 50% and 90% of Japanese are Buddhists.[9] The confusion comes from the fact that Buddhism does not fit into a Western dichotomy of theism and atheism, and that many Japanese citizens take part in Buddhist observances and festivals without considering themselves to be religious.

Similarly, Shinto, a religion rooted in Japanese folklore and tradition, is compatible with Buddhism, and the two have been intertwined in Japanese culture for over a thousand years, although they were forcibly separated during the Meiji era (1868 to 1945). Christianity has a very unique status in Japan. Despite the fact that it was illegal in Japan during the Edo period (1603 to 1868), after the American occupation of Japan after World War II, and the romanticism of all things American, Christianity became "popular" in a very secular way. Today, the Christian Cross is a very popular piece of jewelry for women and girls. (On a TV drama, for example, you are likely to see the main character wear a cross in at least one of the 11 episodes), Weddings in Christian church are increasingly popular[10] to the point that over 90% are Christian-style[11] (followed sometimes by a second wedding in traditional garb), and many people have adapted to "god bless" or "good god" (using Kami as the term for god) as expressions of doubt, fear, and joy - while not believing in that very god. In a similar vein, Christmas is a huge holiday there, complete with Santa, Christmas trees and decorations, and yet very little knowledge about what is actually being celebrated. "


Japan went from isolationism, to Emporer worship, to a mesh of a spiritual belief that is a cocaphony of chaos.
That is not atheism.


Additionally, they have a culture of Honor unlike Russia and China when Atheism took over.
Such a culture would be a moderating force to selfish ideals as secularism promotes.


To compound it,
I could easily anecdotally point to any self sacrifice that existed by example was the Shinto Jews rather than any of the atheists. Heck, I could even go further and cite examples of selfish displays in Japan and claim that is the affect of atheism.
Which would be wrong for me to do so but would place the burden of proof on you to give thousands of examples of selflessness under terror performed by atheists.


You have no studied grounds for your assertions. That is by definition anecdotal.

"About 70 percent of Japanese profess no religious membership,[7][8] according to Johnstone (1993:323), 84% of the Japanese claim no personal religion. In census questionnaires, less than 15 percent reported any formal religious affiliation by 2000.[9] And according to Demerath (2001:138), 64% do not believe in God, and 55% do not believe in Buddha.[10] According to Edwin Reischauer, and Marius Jansen, some 70 to 80 percent of the Japanese regularly tell pollsters they do not consider themselves believers in any religion.[1] Japanese streets are decorated on Tanabata, Obon and Christmas."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Nice job ignoring the next paragraph.