Total Posts:35|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Where we begin and where you begin..

DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "
The Cross.. the Cross.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 11:38:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

I prefer the explanatory method employed by the Methodists that explains the Mainstream Christian approach to arriving at Truth.

Scripture
Logic
Tradition
Experience

All four are necessary for the discovery of Truth as revealed by God.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 11:51:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 11:38:48 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

I prefer the explanatory method employed by the Methodists that explains the Mainstream Christian approach to arriving at Truth.


Scripture
Logic
Tradition
Experience

All four are necessary for the discovery of Truth as revealed by God.

Interesting. Where does faith come into play, especially prior to having any personal experiences with the supernatural? Also, could you elaborate on the tradition aspect?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 11:56:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

No.

You begin by being brought up By Christian parents, in the overwhelming majority of cases, then spend the rest of the time rationalising your beliefs as and when they often conflict with what you experience in reality.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 12:12:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't know how anyone who holds such an arrogant position could have the gall to feign humility.

It's called the schmuck mindset, and it shouldn't be confused for humility.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
rogue
Posts: 2,325
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/9/2012 11:00:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

Lets begin with the bible claim assuming 66 books genesis to rev is what you mean.

Now I am sure you believe that anyone, group, institution can claim that any document/book/script etc is the word of God. But claims are cheap, anyone can write down thus said God, God did this, God did that, whether a few thousands years ago on paper (did they have paper back then ?) or in a word document in today's age agree ?

So how do you determine if a book/script/document is a communication of an all powerful, all knowing God or Not a communication by God, say for example something made up by a person or group of people.

Sam Harris on why he doesn't think the bible is the "word of God" starting at 4:30
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2012 2:49:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Faith is belief without evidence.

If that is a gift from god, then I want a refund.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/10/2012 8:35:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 11:51:19 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/9/2012 11:38:48 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

I prefer the explanatory method employed by the Methodists that explains the Mainstream Christian approach to arriving at Truth.


Scripture
Logic
Tradition
Experience

All four are necessary for the discovery of Truth as revealed by God.

Interesting. Where does faith come into play, especially prior to having any personal experiences with the supernatural? Also, could you elaborate on the tradition aspect?

Many will list a common misconception on this website and fallaciously describe faith, which is reasoned with 'blind' faith.
All four of these are the source and foundation of the Christian Faith.

Tradition is the cumulative knowledge of those Theologians that came before us.
A belief system cannot enter into the Christian church. There cannot be something new, that would violate the Traditional belief systems.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 5:21:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 12:12:00 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I don't know how anyone who holds such an arrogant position could have the gall to feign humility.

It's called the schmuck mindset, and it shouldn't be confused for humility.

How is it arrogant to believe that it is ALL gift?

Surely it is only arrogant to believe one could work it out or earn it?

All you all ever try to do is to overcome our love, our grace/patience/goodwill etc.. but the One in me is greater than the one in the world (you) so may the good lord bless you ALL with a love of truth!
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 5:24:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 11:38:48 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

I prefer the explanatory method employed by the Methodists that explains the Mainstream Christian approach to arriving at Truth.


Scripture
Logic
Tradition
Experience

All four are necessary for the discovery of Truth as revealed by God.

How much of the above did the 'thief on the cross' have? NONE!

He simply had a revelation of Who Jesus is, of his own sin and simply ASKED to admitted into His kingdom..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 5:28:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/10/2012 8:37:20 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hullo Dat. Long time no see. I'm actually living in exeter now (I'm going to St Leonards church)

HI! well, if you're ever in torquay..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 9:28:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see the problem with YOUR argument ALL too well: your judgment, and psychiatrists are SUBJECTIVE judgments which you are selling as objective pronouncements..

God IS the objective position!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 4:25:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/11/2012 9:28:16 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see the problem with YOUR argument ALL too well: your judgment, and psychiatrists are SUBJECTIVE judgments which you are selling as objective pronouncements..

God IS the objective position!

And you don't believe that in order to proclaim something as a reality, you are obliged to provide a smidgen of verifiable evidence?

And if you are hearing voices in your head, there is a reasonable chance you may have schizophrenia or a similar disorder.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/12/2012 10:46:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Considering they are in exactly the same scenario, yes. Both are hearing voices in their head, both are attributing them to imaginary friends, and both have a fervent belief that said friend is real. Yet neither of them can provide a shred of evidence to support said claim, and both are rightly classified as a delusional.

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.

Your tactic seems to be to repeat things over and over, in complete disregard to what is actually being put forth, and then claim the other side is ignorant. Yes, I'm well aware that you could potentially say that this cuts both ways, but I'm the one with evidence on my side.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/12/2012 11:10:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/12/2012 10:46:29 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Considering they are in exactly the same scenario, yes. Both are hearing voices in their head, both are attributing them to imaginary friends, and both have a fervent belief that said friend is real. Yet neither of them can provide a shred of evidence to support said claim, and both are rightly classified as a delusional.

Again, you are unwilling and unable to distinguish the differences of the claims.
Tell you what. Lets try an exercise.
You tell me what makes these two different claims distinct from one another.
Let order them in impact and put points to them.

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.

Your tactic seems to be to repeat things over and over, in complete disregard to what is actually being put forth, and then claim the other side is ignorant. Yes, I'm well aware that you could potentially say that this cuts both ways, but I'm the one with evidence on my side.

First, you cause the repetition. These discussion points I am laying out are used by Theologians the world over.
The challenge is to get you to understand the other viewpoint. You do not understand both.
There is no problem with being ignorant. There is a problem with being arrogant and ignorant.

Second, you do not know how to use the definition of evidence properly. Why do you not cite a definition of evidence and I will show you how this works with a comprehension exercise on how to use evidence in several sentences.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/12/2012 11:56:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/12/2012 11:10:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/12/2012 10:46:29 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Considering they are in exactly the same scenario, yes. Both are hearing voices in their head, both are attributing them to imaginary friends, and both have a fervent belief that said friend is real. Yet neither of them can provide a shred of evidence to support said claim, and both are rightly classified as a delusional.

Again, you are unwilling and unable to distinguish the differences of the claims.
Tell you what. Lets try an exercise.
You tell me what makes these two different claims distinct from one another.
Let order them in impact and put points to them.

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.

Your tactic seems to be to repeat things over and over, in complete disregard to what is actually being put forth, and then claim the other side is ignorant. Yes, I'm well aware that you could potentially say that this cuts both ways, but I'm the one with evidence on my side.

First, you cause the repetition. These discussion points I am laying out are used by Theologians the world over.

Aside from an appeal to authority in theologians, your statement is entirely invalid. You're refusing to acknowledge the examples I'm laying forth.

The challenge is to get you to understand the other viewpoint. You do not understand both.

I understand your's perfectly well, it's a pity it is the equivalent of a fairy tale.

There is no problem with being ignorant. There is a problem with being arrogant and ignorant.

Second, you do not know how to use the definition of evidence properly. Why do you not cite a definition of evidence and I will show you how this works with a comprehension exercise on how to use evidence in several sentences.

You almost make me sick. How do you have the audacity to presume to lecture me when you are unable to provide a rational response?

I don't know how to use the definition of evidence properly? Cite an example.

Hell, need I remind you of your little saga over verifiable evidence?
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 12:53:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/12/2012 11:56:14 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/12/2012 11:10:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/12/2012 10:46:29 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Considering they are in exactly the same scenario, yes. Both are hearing voices in their head, both are attributing them to imaginary friends, and both have a fervent belief that said friend is real. Yet neither of them can provide a shred of evidence to support said claim, and both are rightly classified as a delusional.

Again, you are unwilling and unable to distinguish the differences of the claims.
Tell you what. Lets try an exercise.
You tell me what makes these two different claims distinct from one another.
Let order them in impact and put points to them.

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.

Your tactic seems to be to repeat things over and over, in complete disregard to what is actually being put forth, and then claim the other side is ignorant. Yes, I'm well aware that you could potentially say that this cuts both ways, but I'm the one with evidence on my side.

First, you cause the repetition. These discussion points I am laying out are used by Theologians the world over.

Aside from an appeal to authority in theologians, your statement is entirely invalid. You're refusing to acknowledge the examples I'm laying forth.

The challenge is to get you to understand the other viewpoint. You do not understand both.

I understand your's perfectly well, it's a pity it is the equivalent of a fairy tale.

There is no problem with being ignorant. There is a problem with being arrogant and ignorant.

Second, you do not know how to use the definition of evidence properly. Why do you not cite a definition of evidence and I will show you how this works with a comprehension exercise on how to use evidence in several sentences.

You almost make me sick. How do you have the audacity to presume to lecture me when you are unable to provide a rational response?

I don't know how to use the definition of evidence properly? Cite an example.

Hell, need I remind you of your little saga over verifiable evidence?

For your ease lets stick with the example:
What is the difference between Jim hearing some etheral Jerry speaking to him and the world over Theologians hearing Jesus speak to them...

Please list the bullet point differences:
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 6:53:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 12:53:54 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/12/2012 11:56:14 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/12/2012 11:10:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/12/2012 10:46:29 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 6:37:47 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:37:34 AM, Physik wrote:
At 1/11/2012 5:26:24 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/9/2012 9:18:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/9/2012 6:50:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We Christians begin with a revelation from God that Jesus is His Son and that the Bible is His inspired word.. We then begin a process of learning to know Him and His word more and more..

You begin with without revelation and take the position that unless every question is answered completely then it is false..

Um no. We start with: if there is good evidence to believe something, I will. If not, I won't.

Then YOU would get the glory for 'figuring it out' which is what science, evolution etc is really all about..

Faith is a gift from God, given to those who have been given a love for truth: " everyone on the side of truth listens to me. "

blind faith is one of the downfalls of humanity.

My faith is not blind; Jesus Himself has spoken to me on a number of occasions! He has opened my eyes!

Lets say for a moment that there exists a relatively normal guy, lets call him Jim. Now the odd thing about Jim is, he has an imaginary friend; let's call his friend Jerry. Jim is utterly convinced that Jerry is real, and that Jerry talks to him. Any qualified psychiatrist would diagnose Jim with schizophrenia. However, if Jim calls his 'friend' Jesus instead, he becomes a socially acceptable pious individual.

See the problem?

I see you still are unable to distinguish betwixt the nature of two claims.

If millions of people throughout History claim to have met and talked to Jerry after he was resurrected 3 days after dieing on a cross.....
Then you would say these two claims are the same?

Considering they are in exactly the same scenario, yes. Both are hearing voices in their head, both are attributing them to imaginary friends, and both have a fervent belief that said friend is real. Yet neither of them can provide a shred of evidence to support said claim, and both are rightly classified as a delusional.

Again, you are unwilling and unable to distinguish the differences of the claims.
Tell you what. Lets try an exercise.
You tell me what makes these two different claims distinct from one another.
Let order them in impact and put points to them.

Jesus' advent and current interaction in History is not a bald phenomena but occurred admist a broad religious context.

Perhaps if I keep saying this, some blinders would be removed.

Your tactic seems to be to repeat things over and over, in complete disregard to what is actually being put forth, and then claim the other side is ignorant. Yes, I'm well aware that you could potentially say that this cuts both ways, but I'm the one with evidence on my side.

First, you cause the repetition. These discussion points I am laying out are used by Theologians the world over.

Aside from an appeal to authority in theologians, your statement is entirely invalid. You're refusing to acknowledge the examples I'm laying forth.

The challenge is to get you to understand the other viewpoint. You do not understand both.

I understand your's perfectly well, it's a pity it is the equivalent of a fairy tale.

There is no problem with being ignorant. There is a problem with being arrogant and ignorant.

Second, you do not know how to use the definition of evidence properly. Why do you not cite a definition of evidence and I will show you how this works with a comprehension exercise on how to use evidence in several sentences.

You almost make me sick. How do you have the audacity to presume to lecture me when you are unable to provide a rational response?

I don't know how to use the definition of evidence properly? Cite an example.

Hell, need I remind you of your little saga over verifiable evidence?

For your ease lets stick with the example:
What is the difference between Jim hearing some etheral Jerry speaking to him and the world over Theologians hearing Jesus speak to them...

Please list the bullet point differences:

I believe that is your job.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 8:45:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.

Your misrepresenting what I said.

If someone reports that they hear voices in their head from their imaginary friend Jerry, they will be diagnosed with a relatively severe mental disorder. If they are in the exact same scenario, but they call their friend Jesus, they get put into the same 'socially acceptable' category as millions of other people.

The point was that this is simply strange.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 9:25:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 8:45:16 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.

Your misrepresenting what I said.

If someone reports that they hear voices in their head from their imaginary friend Jerry, they will be diagnosed with a relatively severe mental disorder. If they are in the exact same scenario, but they call their friend Jesus, they get put into the same 'socially acceptable' category as millions of other people.

The point was that this is simply strange.

Ruminating. Merely ruminating.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 9:38:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 9:25:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:45:16 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.

Your misrepresenting what I said.

If someone reports that they hear voices in their head from their imaginary friend Jerry, they will be diagnosed with a relatively severe mental disorder. If they are in the exact same scenario, but they call their friend Jesus, they get put into the same 'socially acceptable' category as millions of other people.

The point was that this is simply strange.

Ruminating. Merely ruminating.

How so? All I've said is that it is odd that the simple change of a name would cause a dramatic shift in how current society perceives an otherwise identical scenario.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 9:53:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 9:38:26 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 9:25:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:45:16 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.

Your misrepresenting what I said.

If someone reports that they hear voices in their head from their imaginary friend Jerry, they will be diagnosed with a relatively severe mental disorder. If they are in the exact same scenario, but they call their friend Jesus, they get put into the same 'socially acceptable' category as millions of other people.

The point was that this is simply strange.

Ruminating. Merely ruminating.

How so? All I've said is that it is odd that the simple change of a name would cause a dramatic shift in how current society perceives an otherwise identical scenario.

lol. Maybe... wait for it.... their not identical.
Physik
Posts: 686
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2012 10:00:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/13/2012 9:53:23 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 9:38:26 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 9:25:53 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:45:16 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/13/2012 8:33:09 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/13/2012 6:58:18 PM, Physik wrote:
The only difference in the given scenario is the name of the friend, yet they are perceived as completely different. My point was that this is simply... curious.

So your saying a guy named Jim talking to an imaginary Jerry is no different than:

- Scholars, theologains, pastors and monks
- Countless 100's of millions of people

All who have communications from Jesus amidst the broad religious context of:

- Expectation of Jews of a Messiah
- The wide communication of God to the Jews.
-The miraculous birth of Jesus
-The special miraculous powers of Jesus
-The empirically verified astronomical signs surrounding the birth and death of Jesus
-The death and resurrection of Jesus
-The miraculous powers of Jesus' followers
-The coincidental growth of a church dedicated Jesus throughout History
-The current status of number 1 of said church.

There should be no perceptive difference to the Christian?

I will let the readers ruminate upon that wisdom.

Your misrepresenting what I said.

If someone reports that they hear voices in their head from their imaginary friend Jerry, they will be diagnosed with a relatively severe mental disorder. If they are in the exact same scenario, but they call their friend Jesus, they get put into the same 'socially acceptable' category as millions of other people.

The point was that this is simply strange.

Ruminating. Merely ruminating.

How so? All I've said is that it is odd that the simple change of a name would cause a dramatic shift in how current society perceives an otherwise identical scenario.

lol. Maybe... wait for it.... their not identical.

In the given scenario, the only difference is that the name is changed from Jerry to Jesus. My point was that it is strange that such a small thing completely alters society's perception of the individual.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico