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Non-Religious America

Volkov
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5/29/2009 12:32:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
CBC Article: http://www.cbc.ca...

NYTimes Article: http://www.nytimes.com...

As I think a few people have noticed, there has been a distinct rise of the non-believers in the US. This has been attributed to the rise of a forceful religious right which tries to force their beliefs on people, and a flurry of atheist/agnostic books published that allow people to more readily identify themselves as non-believers, or as Mr. Macdonald puts its, "apatheists". Atheists/agnostics are the only belief demographic that has risen in all 50 states (http://www.nytimes.com...). But of course, despite all this progress, there is still a lot of stigma against atheists, especially in the Bible Belt.

Personally I find this a good thing, as it gives a vocal opposition to these religious extremists that dominate the airwaves in the US, because clearly the mainstream churches aren't doing enough. I'm not an atheist that says all religions should be gone off the face of the Earth, but I do think that the rise of a secular society, even a religious secular society, is much better than the rise of an ultra-religious one. I also find the fact that more people are now less fearful to 'come out of the closet', a sign that others are becoming more tolerant, at least in some areas.

What does everyone else think? What is this rise attributed to? But please, please do not say it is because of the Anti-Christ or something. I want this thread to be a discussion of thoughtful ideas, not religious ranting.
leet4A1
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5/29/2009 5:39:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/29/2009 12:32:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
CBC Article: http://www.cbc.ca...

NYTimes Article: http://www.nytimes.com...

As I think a few people have noticed, there has been a distinct rise of the non-believers in the US. This has been attributed to the rise of a forceful religious right which tries to force their beliefs on people, and a flurry of atheist/agnostic books published that allow people to more readily identify themselves as non-believers, or as Mr. Macdonald puts its, "apatheists". Atheists/agnostics are the only belief demographic that has risen in all 50 states (http://www.nytimes.com...). But of course, despite all this progress, there is still a lot of stigma against atheists, especially in the Bible Belt.

Personally I find this a good thing, as it gives a vocal opposition to these religious extremists that dominate the airwaves in the US, because clearly the mainstream churches aren't doing enough. I'm not an atheist that says all religions should be gone off the face of the Earth, but I do think that the rise of a secular society, even a religious secular society, is much better than the rise of an ultra-religious one. I also find the fact that more people are now less fearful to 'come out of the closet', a sign that others are becoming more tolerant, at least in some areas.

What does everyone else think? What is this rise attributed to? But please, please do not say it is because of the Anti-Christ or something. I want this thread to be a discussion of thoughtful ideas, not religious ranting.

I think the people of this country are just getting a bit sick and tired of the B.S. And who can blame them? Certainly, the popular books haven't hurt the process, but I think they just released feelings in people which were already there.

Eight years of watching Dubya dedicate wars to Jesus and so forth certainly wouldn't have helped. So yes, I blame G.W. Bush. Oh wait, you said don't blame the Anti-Christ, right? ;D
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/29/2009 5:51:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/29/2009 5:39:44 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
I think the people of this country are just getting a bit sick and tired of the B.S. And who can blame them? Certainly, the popular books haven't hurt the process, but I think they just released feelings in people which were already there.

Eight years of watching Dubya dedicate wars to Jesus and so forth certainly wouldn't have helped. So yes, I blame G.W. Bush. Oh wait, you said don't blame the Anti-Christ, right? ;D

Lol, I have to agree in a way. Bush linked religion together with a lot of things and obviously with the unpopularity of his administration, people will become turned off.

Though I can't say it is the majority of his fault. A lot of these televangelists were right there after 9/11 and Katrina, blaming it on America's tolerance of homosexuality or greed - that would have turned a lot of people off. Bush might have been a terrible President, but there were some things you have to give him credit for, ie., AIDS retro-viral funding, that a lot of these televangelists wouldn't have done without attaching religion or homosexuality to it. I think a big share of this lies with those people. It sickens me to see them saying such thing., I can't imagine what others are thinking, especially those that looked up to these people.
DATCMOTO
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5/30/2009 5:55:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Then they could not have been very strong believers in the first place could they?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
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5/30/2009 1:26:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/30/2009 5:55:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Then they could not have been very strong believers in the first place could they?

I disagree. A lot of them probably were "believers" that followed the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, and saw what these people were advocating. Do you really agree with such things DAT?
Chuckles
Posts: 274
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5/30/2009 8:03:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/29/2009 5:51:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
A lot of these televangelists were right there after 9/11 and Katrina, blaming it on America's tolerance of homosexuality or greed

my brother once said the wildfires in california seemed to coincide with the court rulings there allowing gay marriage. Funny thing, though, those fires continued even after Proposition 8!
"Pumas are wretched beasts with enourmous salty genitals."-MadMonkey889

: At 5/5/2009 9:47:22 PM, rogerklotz wrote:
:That's obviously changed by the government. The Atlanteans probably had something to do with it.
: QUIT USING LOGIC

: At 4/25/2009 3:09:34 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
:God is GOING to have His way with you.
: At 5/5/2009 11:41:18 AM, Volkov wrote:
:When both sides can agree and disagree without someone quoting Proverbs, then the debate comes worthwhile
Volkov
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5/30/2009 8:27:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/30/2009 8:03:41 PM, Chuckles wrote:
At 5/29/2009 5:51:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
A lot of these televangelists were right there after 9/11 and Katrina, blaming it on America's tolerance of homosexuality or greed

my brother once said the wildfires in california seemed to coincide with the court rulings there allowing gay marriage. Funny thing, though, those fires continued even after Proposition 8!

Lol, yeah that is what usually happens. They try to use tragedies that have nothing to do with a controversial topic in order to either make us fear God or make us feel guilty. Instead of doing that though, they just make people realize how immoral they really are. Its ironic.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/1/2009 2:11:33 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/30/2009 1:26:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/30/2009 5:55:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Then they could not have been very strong believers in the first place could they?

I disagree. A lot of them probably were "believers" that followed the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, and saw what these people were advocating. Do you really agree with such things DAT?

With such people? No, I do not.

1 Timothy 4:1 (New King James Version)

1 Timothy 4
The Great Apostasy
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/1/2009 2:36:41 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thank God. Finally people are waking up and freeing themselves from these mind prisons.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/1/2009 3:16:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 2:36:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Thank God. Finally people are waking up and freeing themselves from these mind prisons.

By the way Geo, I saw 'Zeitgeist:The Movie' the other day.. It actually strengthened my belief in Jesus Christ.
I go along with alot of the banking stuff though. Not too sure about 911.
Anyway.. it's only describing the water isn't it?

Isaiah 29:20-21 (New King James Version)
20 For the terrible one is brought to nothing,
The scornful one is consumed,
And all who watch for iniquity are cut off—
21 Who make a man an offender by a word,
And lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate,
And turn aside the just by empty words.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
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6/1/2009 3:25:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 3:16:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 2:36:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Thank God. Finally people are waking up and freeing themselves from these mind prisons.

By the way Geo, I saw 'Zeitgeist:The Movie' the other day.. It actually strengthened my belief in Jesus Christ.
I go along with alot of the banking stuff though. Not too sure about 911.
Anyway.. it's only describing the water isn't it?

How could it possibly strengthen your belief in Jesus Christ?

So you saw evidence for a mythological Christ and you see very little evidence for a real Christ, yet this strengthened your belief in the less likely existence of a Christ? How does that make sense? You saw the opposition present a stronger argument, which inherently weakens yours, yet your initial belief is strengthened.

Please tell me how this happened?

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/1/2009 10:46:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 3:25:18 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/1/2009 3:16:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 2:36:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Thank God. Finally people are waking up and freeing themselves from these mind prisons.

By the way Geo, I saw 'Zeitgeist:The Movie' the other day.. It actually strengthened my belief in Jesus Christ.
I go along with alot of the banking stuff though. Not too sure about 911.
Anyway.. it's only describing the water isn't it?

How could it possibly strengthen your belief in Jesus Christ?

So you saw evidence for a mythological Christ and you see very little evidence for a real Christ, yet this strengthened your belief in the less likely existence of a Christ? How does that make sense? You saw the opposition present a stronger argument, which inherently weakens yours, yet your initial belief is strengthened.

Please tell me how this happened?

I saw that with all the astrological stuff, creation itself mirrors Christ.
I saw that satan, in an attempt replicate Him, ended up only mirroring Him even more.
I saw that that the No.1 target for the film (and of the atheists on this site) is Christ. Even when people bang on about muslims etc they only use them to attack Christ.
Nothing can weaken my faith in Christ because there is nothing apart from Him.
NOT
'there is nothing apart from Him'
BUT..
There is nothing apart from Him.
Without Him I am nothing. Worse than nothing, an abomination.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/1/2009 11:13:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 10:46:48 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 3:25:18 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/1/2009 3:16:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 2:36:41 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Thank God. Finally people are waking up and freeing themselves from these mind prisons.

By the way Geo, I saw 'Zeitgeist:The Movie' the other day.. It actually strengthened my belief in Jesus Christ.
I go along with alot of the banking stuff though. Not too sure about 911.
Anyway.. it's only describing the water isn't it?

How could it possibly strengthen your belief in Jesus Christ?

So you saw evidence for a mythological Christ and you see very little evidence for a real Christ, yet this strengthened your belief in the less likely existence of a Christ? How does that make sense? You saw the opposition present a stronger argument, which inherently weakens yours, yet your initial belief is strengthened.

Please tell me how this happened?

I saw that with all the astrological stuff, creation itself mirrors Christ.
I saw that satan, in an attempt replicate Him, ended up only mirroring Him even more.
I saw that that the No.1 target for the film (and of the atheists on this site) is Christ. Even when people bang on about muslims etc they only use them to attack Christ.
Nothing can weaken my faith in Christ because there is nothing apart from Him.
NOT
'there is nothing apart from Him'
BUT..
There is nothing apart from Him.
Without Him I am nothing. Worse than nothing, an abomination.

You realize that Christ is always a target because Christianity has the largest following in the world. If it went after a small religion, it wouldn't have the same effect.

Also, I fail to see how "creation itself mirrors Christ."

Let me break it down for you DATC:

- The story of Christ and many other Biblical stories are repeated in much earlier religions and myths. Christ is not the only man to proclaim himself to be "God" or the "son of God."
- There have been many gods that have been worshiped much earlier than Christ. Also had a very similar story.
- The Bible is a mash up of earlier cultures, religions, stories, and traditions.
- Yet, for some reason, you still choose to believe in Christ. Why not any of the earlier gods or men who claimed to be son of God.
- You claim that you KNOW Jesus exists because he spoke to you personally. Hearing a voice saying "I am the truth, he is the lie" does not give you reason to believe that it was Jesus' voice, nor does it give you reason to believe he exists. It could have been a more ancient god speaking to you implying Christ is the lie for all you know. It was a very vague statement.

Given all these factors, why do you believe Christ is the only one true God and the Bible is the only correct book? Please, no answers based on intuition. That won't cut it.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/2/2009 10:39:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 11:13:26 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

You realize that Christ is always a target because Christianity has the largest following in the world. If it went after a small religion, it wouldn't have the same effect.

This is your opinion. You are entitled to it. It is wrong.

Also, I fail to see how "creation itself mirrors Christ."

You 'fail to see'.. very good Geo, you're improving.

Let me break it down for you DATC:

You couldn't break down cardboard boxes.

- The story of Christ and many other Biblical stories are repeated in much earlier religions and myths. Christ is not the only man to proclaim himself to be "God" or the "son of God."
- There have been many gods that have been worshiped much earlier than Christ. Also had a very similar story.
- The Bible is a mash up of earlier cultures, religions, stories, and traditions.
- Yet, for some reason, you still choose to believe in Christ. Why not any of the earlier gods or men who claimed to be son of God.

The 'earlier' argument is utterly meaningless. For God (and for satan) there is no 'earlier'.. They exist outside of time (in Eternity) and so see all times at once.
So every time satan whispered into the ears of ancient men all those oh-so-similar details of their 'new god' he had one eye on the Real Thing.
I do not think you even begin to comprehend how sophisicated satan is.
The only reason I can speculate like this is because I am 100% locked into the Word of God. Because I know what is true I can assume certain things, such as any thing that contradicts that which I know to be true is obviously an invention of the enemy. Without an absolute reference to a single truth we are utterly lost. It's all conjecture. No. Thank you.
C.S Lewis was an absolute expert on ancient mythologies and it was through an all night discussion on this exact subject (the similarities between other 'gods' and Christ) that he came to believe, so it is no kind of argument at all.

- You claim that you KNOW Jesus exists because he spoke to you personally. Hearing a voice saying "I am the truth, he is the lie" does not give you reason to believe that it was Jesus' voice, nor does it give you reason to believe he exists. It could have been a more ancient god speaking to you implying Christ is the lie for all you know. It was a very vague statement.

Oh, that was just the spring board to a whole new life of wide open spaces and lesson learned and being learned.
I've been through all the 'could've beens'.. even after He spoke to me personally I still tried to weasle my way out of it just so I could carry on with my own selfish/miserable existence (and before you say "AHAA, that's the only reason he believes.. because he was miserable" I did not, for one moment imagine myself to be so) for a little longer.
It was Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit.. God Almighty.

Given all these factors, why do you believe Christ is the only one true God and the Bible is the only correct book? Please, no answers based on intuition. That won't cut it.

You should really wait for the rebuttal before you begin making muscular statements such as this because now it just looks kinda.. silly.

Colossians 2:8 (The Message)

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/3/2009 12:41:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/2/2009 10:39:52 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/1/2009 11:13:26 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
- The story of Christ and many other Biblical stories are repeated in much earlier religions and myths. Christ is not the only man to proclaim himself to be "God" or the "son of God."
- There have been many gods that have been worshiped much earlier than Christ. Also had a very similar story.
- The Bible is a mash up of earlier cultures, religions, stories, and traditions.
- Yet, for some reason, you still choose to believe in Christ. Why not any of the earlier gods or men who claimed to be son of God.

The 'earlier' argument is utterly meaningless. For God (and for satan) there is no 'earlier'.. They exist outside of time (in Eternity) and so see all times at once.
So every time satan whispered into the ears of ancient men all those oh-so-similar details of their 'new god' he had one eye on the Real Thing.
I do not think you even begin to comprehend how sophisicated satan is.
The only reason I can speculate like this is because I am 100% locked into the Word of God. Because I know what is true I can assume certain things, such as any thing that contradicts that which I know to be true is obviously an invention of the enemy. Without an absolute reference to a single truth we are utterly lost. It's all conjecture. No. Thank you.
C.S Lewis was an absolute expert on ancient mythologies and it was through an all night discussion on this exact subject (the similarities between other 'gods' and Christ) that he came to believe, so it is no kind of argument at all.

Wow. That is laughable. All the gods that came before Christ were deceptions of Satan. Satan whispered into the ears of the ancients to deceive them. You call that an argument? Can you prove that Satan deceived men into believing in other gods?

- You claim that you KNOW Jesus exists because he spoke to you personally. Hearing a voice saying "I am the truth, he is the lie" does not give you reason to believe that it was Jesus' voice, nor does it give you reason to believe he exists. It could have been a more ancient god speaking to you implying Christ is the lie for all you know. It was a very vague statement.

Oh, that was just the spring board to a whole new life of wide open spaces and lesson learned and being learned.
I've been through all the 'could've beens'.. even after He spoke to me personally I still tried to weasle my way out of it just so I could carry on with my own selfish/miserable existence (and before you say "AHAA, that's the only reason he believes.. because he was miserable" I did not, for one moment imagine myself to be so) for a little longer.
It was Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit.. God Almighty.

What led you to believe it was Jesus? Stating so without reason, let alone evidence, does not count. Please, tell me how YOU KNOW Jesus Christ and the Bible are the only way. Why aren't any other religions the right way? Why are the older ones wrong and yours right? I want to know your reason for this choice.

Given all these factors, why do you believe Christ is the only one true God and the Bible is the only correct book? Please, no answers based on intuition. That won't cut it.

You should really wait for the rebuttal before you begin making muscular statements such as this because now it just looks kinda.. silly.

Actually, your response was silly. "Everything that contradicts my beliefs is Satan."

I thought you could come up with something better than that.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/3/2009 4:40:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 12:41:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

The 'earlier' argument is utterly meaningless. For God (and for satan) there is no 'earlier'.. They exist outside of time (in Eternity) and so see all times at once.
So every time satan whispered into the ears of ancient men all those oh-so-similar details of their 'new god' he had one eye on the Real Thing.
I do not think you even begin to comprehend how sophisicated satan is.
The only reason I can speculate like this is because I am 100% locked into the Word of God. Because I know what is true I can assume certain things, such as any thing that contradicts that which I know to be true is obviously an invention of the enemy. Without an absolute reference to a single truth we are utterly lost. It's all conjecture. No. Thank you.
C.S Lewis was an absolute expert on ancient mythologies and it was through an all night discussion on this exact subject (the similarities between other 'gods' and Christ) that he came to believe, so it is no kind of argument at all.

Wow. That is laughable. All the gods that came before Christ were deceptions of Satan. Satan whispered into the ears of the ancients to deceive them. You call that an argument? Can you prove that Satan deceived men into believing in other gods?

Can you prove he did not? No? Laughable!
See? we can all play that 'high and mighty' game.
(interestingly it is the only time within the Zeitgiest movie that the commentator adopts a mocking tone, when He states that Christians explain this as lies of satan)

- You claim that you KNOW Jesus exists because he spoke to you personally. Hearing a voice saying "I am the truth, he is the lie" does not give you reason to believe that it was Jesus' voice, nor does it give you reason to believe he exists. It could have been a more ancient god speaking to you implying Christ is the lie for all you know. It was a very vague statement.

Oh, that was just the spring board to a whole new life of wide open spaces and lesson learned and being learned.
I've been through all the 'could've beens'.. even after He spoke to me personally I still tried to weasle my way out of it just so I could carry on with my own selfish/miserable existence (and before you say "AHAA, that's the only reason he believes.. because he was miserable" I did not, for one moment imagine myself to be so) for a little longer.
It was Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit.. God Almighty.

What led you to believe it was Jesus? Stating so without reason, let alone evidence, does not count. Please, tell me how YOU KNOW Jesus Christ and the Bible are the only way. Why aren't any other religions the right way? Why are the older ones wrong and yours right? I want to know your reason for this choice.

For one thing (and it is only one of the many reasons) everything only begun to improve and make sense when I knew it was Christ.
And how do we know anything, if you wanna bring it down to that level.

Given all these factors, why do you believe Christ is the only one true God and the Bible is the only correct book? Please, no answers based on intuition. That won't cut it.

You should really wait for the rebuttal before you begin making muscular statements such as this because now it just looks kinda.. silly.

Actually, your response was silly. "Everything that contradicts my beliefs is Satan."

I thought you could come up with something better than that.

Such as abductions by alien freemasons? something like that?

Colossians 2:8 (The Message)

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/3/2009 12:40:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 4:40:27 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Can you prove he did not? No? Laughable!
See? we can all play that 'high and mighty' game.
(interestingly it is the only time within the Zeitgiest movie that the commentator adopts a mocking tone, when He states that Christians explain this as lies of satan)

Are you serious? YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF. You laughing at me is like laughing at the fact that I can't prove invisible fairies aren't pulling objects toward the ground instead of gravity. That's how ridiculous your laughter is.

For one thing (and it is only one of the many reasons) everything only begun to improve and make sense when I knew it was Christ.
And how do we know anything, if you wanna bring it down to that level.

So you have no reason other than intuition. Just as I expected. I thought you would have an actually logical reason. You're whole argument is that you knew Christ was the truth because it made sense. By that logic, everyone is correct because they believe what makes sense to them. How is that a sound argument?

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2009 5:55:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 12:40:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:40:27 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Can you prove he did not? No? Laughable!
See? we can all play that 'high and mighty' game.
(interestingly it is the only time within the Zeitgeist movie that the commentator adopts a mocking tone, when He states that Christians explain this as lies of Satan)

Are you serious? YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF. You laughing at me is like laughing at the fact that I can't prove invisible fairies aren't pulling objects toward the ground instead of gravity. That's how ridiculous your laughter is.

I wasn't actually laughing at you, I was merely parroting your own underhand methods.

For one thing (and it is only one of the many reasons) everything only begun to improve and make sense when I knew it was Christ.
And how do we know anything, if you wanna bring it down to that level.

So you have no reason other than intuition. Just as I expected. I thought you would have an actually logical reason. You're whole argument is that you knew Christ was the truth because it made sense. By that logic, everyone is correct because they believe what makes sense to them. How is that a sound argument?

What is the point of talking to you if you are not going to read my posts?
I stated it was one reason AND I stated that bringing it down to a subjective level (which you did remember?) does not move the argument forward at all.
Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)

30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 5:55:18 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/3/2009 12:40:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:40:27 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Can you prove he did not? No? Laughable!
See? we can all play that 'high and mighty' game.
(interestingly it is the only time within the Zeitgeist movie that the commentator adopts a mocking tone, when He states that Christians explain this as lies of Satan)

Are you serious? YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF. You laughing at me is like laughing at the fact that I can't prove invisible fairies aren't pulling objects toward the ground instead of gravity. That's how ridiculous your laughter is.

I wasn't actually laughing at you, I was merely parroting your own underhand methods.

For one thing (and it is only one of the many reasons) everything only begun to improve and make sense when I knew it was Christ.
And how do we know anything, if you wanna bring it down to that level.

So you have no reason other than intuition. Just as I expected. I thought you would have an actually logical reason. You're whole argument is that you knew Christ was the truth because it made sense. By that logic, everyone is correct because they believe what makes sense to them. How is that a sound argument?

What is the point of talking to you if you are not going to read my posts?
I stated it was one reason AND I stated that bringing it down to a subjective level (which you did remember?) does not move the argument forward at all.

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)

30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.

Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

God or satan.
That is your choice.
Just like Adam.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

Something like that?

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/5/2009 9:30:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

I think you mean aliens & freemasons.

Both of which exist. Seen em both with my own eyes. Also, their existence doesn't confilct with science and reason.

Also, at the same time, I don't tell people they're going to hell because they don't believe in aliens. I understand that some of the evidence is not convincing enough for some people.

God or satan.
That is your choice.

I choose God; Satan doesn't exist.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

I'm not abandoning reason to be able to see that the story of Jesus is a myth. You are abondoning reason and relying on faith to believe the Jesus story is true.

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

How can you say that with much confidence? Can you prove it? Or is that merely a statement of belief.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

How can you claim truth without proof? What led you to believe Christ is the truth? How DO YOU KNOW I'm compromising the truth to win? Do you have a reason for saying so? Are you saying it just because you disagree with me or it contradicts your BELIEFS, not empirical truth, BELIEF? You make so many statements with absolute confidence, BUT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK IT UP!

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/5/2009 9:34:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/5/2009 7:37:04 PM, Chase_the_Bass wrote:
This has been a very interesting thread. Even if it has strayed a bit from the topic.

Yes, well, as with a majority of topics, DATCMOTO comes in and leads it off into never-never land.
Chase_the_Bass
Posts: 3
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6/5/2009 10:00:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I believe the internet is the primary cause for the rise in atheism in the sense that it is the vessel for opposing views. When people are never exposed to the alternative they won't always question what they believe. Also the treasure trove of information provides the evidence.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/6/2009 7:14:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/5/2009 9:30:36 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

I think you mean aliens & freemasons.

No.. I was gently mocking your conspiracy mind set.

Both of which exist. Seen em both with my own eyes. Also, their existence doesn't confilct with science and reason.

The Supernatural always conflicts with the natural. That's what makes it so super.

Also, at the same time, I don't tell people they're going to hell because they don't believe in aliens. I understand that some of the evidence is not convincing enough for some people.

That's because a belief in aliens (or not) does not affect our eternal destiny.
Belief in Jesus Christ does.

God or satan.
That is your choice.

I choose God; Satan doesn't exist.

Then he had already defeated you.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

I'm not abandoning reason to be able to see that the story of Jesus is a myth. You are abondoning reason and relying on faith to believe the Jesus story is true.

You are trusting sinful, deceitful, fallen MEN.

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

How can you say that with much confidence? Can you prove it? Or is that merely a statement of belief.

I say it (partly) to prove MYSELF to my God.. not the other way round.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

How can you claim truth without proof? What led you to believe Christ is the truth? How DO YOU KNOW I'm compromising the truth to win? Do you have a reason for saying so? Are you saying it just because you disagree with me or it contradicts your BELIEFS, not empirical truth, BELIEF? You make so many statements with absolute confidence, BUT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK IT UP!

That's why it called Faith.

1 Corinthians 1:20 (New King James Version)
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
The Cross.. the Cross.
The-Hand
Posts: 40
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6/6/2009 8:21:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/29/2009 12:32:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
CBC Article: http://www.cbc.ca...

NYTimes Article: http://www.nytimes.com...

As I think a few people have noticed, there has been a distinct rise of the non-believers in the US. This has been attributed to the rise of a forceful religious right which tries to force their beliefs on people, and a flurry of atheist/agnostic books published that allow people to more readily identify themselves as non-believers, or as Mr. Macdonald puts its, "apatheists". Atheists/agnostics are the only belief demographic that has risen in all 50 states (http://www.nytimes.com...). But of course, despite all this progress, there is still a lot of stigma against atheists, especially in the Bible Belt.

Personally I find this a good thing, as it gives a vocal opposition to these religious extremists that dominate the airwaves in the US, because clearly the mainstream churches aren't doing enough. I'm not an atheist that says all religions should be gone off the face of the Earth, but I do think that the rise of a secular society, even a religious secular society, is much better than the rise of an ultra-religious one. I also find the fact that more people are now less fearful to 'come out of the closet', a sign that others are becoming more tolerant, at least in some areas.

What does everyone else think? What is this rise attributed to? But please, please do not say it is because of the Anti-Christ or something. I want this thread to be a discussion of thoughtful ideas, not religious ranting.

I honestly believe that the rise of atheism is correlated directly with the rise of liberal Christianity and the transformation of the Republican party into a neoconservative party for evangelical and fundamentalist christians. The failures of Bush, who is a fundamentalist Christian, may also get people to be atheists. Also, the recent surge of books like the God Delusion, The End of Faith, and God is Not Great have allowed many skeptic liberal christians to make a leap to non faith
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/6/2009 3:16:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/6/2009 7:14:39 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/5/2009 9:30:36 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

I think you mean aliens & freemasons.

No.. I was gently mocking your conspiracy mind set.

Both of which exist. Seen em both with my own eyes. Also, their existence doesn't confilct with science and reason.

The Supernatural always conflicts with the natural. That's what makes it so super.

Neither aliens or Freemasons are supernatural. What makes you think that. Life on other planets is just that. Life on other planets. What's supernatural about that?

Also, at the same time, I don't tell people they're going to hell because they don't believe in aliens. I understand that some of the evidence is not convincing enough for some people.

That's because a belief in aliens (or not) does not affect our eternal destiny.
Belief in Jesus Christ does.

Even if Jesus existed, even if he were the son of god, even if he really resurrected, it is still an incredibly weak and twisted philosophy. Feed my ego, and you will live forever. Insult me and live forever in misery. You think that's the answer to life? Please. Think for yourself and quit being a proud slave.

God or satan.
That is your choice.

I choose God; Satan doesn't exist.

Then he had already defeated you.

I can't be defeated by something that doesn't exist.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

I'm not abandoning reason to be able to see that the story of Jesus is a myth. You are abondoning reason and relying on faith to believe the Jesus story is true.

You are trusting sinful, deceitful, fallen MEN.

Actually, it is you who is trusting deceitful men. The Bible was compiled and edited by men who wanted to control and enslave people. King James, Constantine, Council of Nicea. Connect the dots.

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

How can you say that with much confidence? Can you prove it? Or is that merely a statement of belief.

I say it (partly) to prove MYSELF to my God.. not the other way round.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

How can you claim truth without proof? What led you to believe Christ is the truth? How DO YOU KNOW I'm compromising the truth to win? Do you have a reason for saying so? Are you saying it just because you disagree with me or it contradicts your BELIEFS, not empirical truth, BELIEF? You make so many statements with absolute confidence, BUT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK IT UP!

That's why it called Faith.

So you admit your statements are entirely baseless. Somehow you feel that because of your faith, you have the right to make statements of absolute certainty about me being deceived by Satan. That is ludicrous because faith by definition is to BLINDLY BELIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT EVIDENCE. You admit that your blindness, or ignorance, grants you the ability to call people pawns of Satan.

Epic fail.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/6/2009 11:51:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/6/2009 8:21:06 AM, The-Hand wrote:
I honestly believe that the rise of atheism is correlated directly with the rise of liberal Christianity and the transformation of the Republican party into a neoconservative party for evangelical and fundamentalist christians. The failures of Bush, who is a fundamentalist Christian, may also get people to be atheists. Also, the recent surge of books like the God Delusion, The End of Faith, and God is Not Great have allowed many skeptic liberal christians to make a leap to non faith

The rise of liberal Christians does correlate with this data, doesn't it. The more open and secular a religious group becomes, the more at peace others feel at exposing themselves as non-believers, without fear of persecution or prosecution. Very good point indeed.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/8/2009 10:37:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/6/2009 3:16:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/6/2009 7:14:39 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/5/2009 9:30:36 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

I think you mean aliens & freemasons.

No.. I was gently mocking your conspiracy mind set.

Both of which exist. Seen em both with my own eyes. Also, their existence doesn't confilct with science and reason.

The Supernatural always conflicts with the natural. That's what makes it so super.

Neither aliens or Freemasons are supernatural. What makes you think that. Life on other planets is just that. Life on other planets. What's supernatural about that?

Try to keep up.
You intimated that your beliefs were superior because they did not contradict 'science and reason'. (which are both concerned with natural, verifiable phenomena)
I simply point out that this naturalistic approach cannot hope to comprehend the Supernatural.
In order to do this we must have help from Supernatural Himself.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, at the same time, I don't tell people they're going to hell because they don't believe in aliens. I understand that some of the evidence is not convincing enough for some people.

That's because a belief in aliens (or not) does not affect our eternal destiny.
Belief in Jesus Christ does.

Even if Jesus existed, even if he were the son of god, even if he really resurrected, it is still an incredibly weak and twisted philosophy. Feed my ego, and you will live forever. Insult me and live forever in misery. You think that's the answer to life? Please. Think for yourself and quit being a proud slave.

But He does not say these things. He says:

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Think about it. If the above statement is true then how can there be Life in anything else?

God or satan.
That is your choice.

I choose God; Satan doesn't exist.

Then he had already defeated you.

I can't be defeated by something that doesn't exist.

He has fed you the lie that he does not exist. He has defeated you.

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

I'm not abandoning reason to be able to see that the story of Jesus is a myth. You are abondoning reason and relying on faith to believe the Jesus story is true.

You are trusting sinful, deceitful, fallen MEN.

Actually, it is you who is trusting deceitful men. The Bible was compiled and edited by men who wanted to control and enslave people. King James, Constantine, Council of Nicea. Connect the dots.

How does the fact that men have used the Bible to enslave people in anyway detract from it being the Word of God?
Do you think satan should 'play by the rules'?

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

How can you say that with much confidence? Can you prove it? Or is that merely a statement of belief.

I say it (partly) to prove MYSELF to my God.. not the other way round.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

How can you claim truth without proof? What led you to believe Christ is the truth? How DO YOU KNOW I'm compromising the truth to win? Do you have a reason for saying so? Are you saying it just because you disagree with me or it contradicts your BELIEFS, not empirical truth, BELIEF? You make so many statements with absolute confidence, BUT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK IT UP!

That's why it called Faith.

So you admit your statements are entirely baseless. Somehow you feel that because of your faith, you have the right to make statements of absolute certainty about me being deceived by Satan. That is ludicrous because faith by definition is to BLINDLY BELIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT EVIDENCE. You admit that your blindness, or ignorance, grants you the ability to call people pawns of Satan.

Epic fail.

Yes, I am absolutely certain of my beliefs without anything I could remotely call 'evidence'.
I cannot convince anyone who does not want to be convinced.

I can only warn you that you will stand in judgement before Christ.
He is real and wants you to come to Him of your own accord.
Save yourself. Let Him save you.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)

30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/8/2009 2:43:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/8/2009 10:37:29 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/6/2009 3:16:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/6/2009 7:14:39 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/5/2009 9:30:36 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/5/2009 6:35:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 11:48:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I'm not bringing it down to a subjective level. Your religious views are subjective, not empirical. I'm taking it down to a logical standpoint and it seems you can't respond to that.

As are your views on alien freemasons.

I think you mean aliens & freemasons.

No.. I was gently mocking your conspiracy mind set.

Both of which exist. Seen em both with my own eyes. Also, their existence doesn't confilct with science and reason.

The Supernatural always conflicts with the natural. That's what makes it so super.

Neither aliens or Freemasons are supernatural. What makes you think that. Life on other planets is just that. Life on other planets. What's supernatural about that?

Try to keep up.
You intimated that your beliefs were superior because they did not contradict 'science and reason'. (which are both concerned with natural, verifiable phenomena)
I simply point out that this naturalistic approach cannot hope to comprehend the Supernatural.
In order to do this we must have help from Supernatural Himself.

Anything that is supernatural is merely something that science has yet to explain. Everything can be explained scientifically, including spiritual phenomena.

Also, at the same time, I don't tell people they're going to hell because they don't believe in aliens. I understand that some of the evidence is not convincing enough for some people.

That's because a belief in aliens (or not) does not affect our eternal destiny.
Belief in Jesus Christ does.

Even if Jesus existed, even if he were the son of god, even if he really resurrected, it is still an incredibly weak and twisted philosophy. Feed my ego, and you will live forever. Insult me and live forever in misery. You think that's the answer to life? Please. Think for yourself and quit being a proud slave.

But He does not say these things. He says:

John 14:6 (New King James Version)
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Think about it. If the above statement is true then how can there be Life in anything else?

Of course he didn't say those exact words, but he more or less implied the same thing. He is claiming that unless he is "within" you, or if you believe in him, he will grant you eternal life. If you don't believe in him, you will be "spiritually dead." That is arrogance through claims of superiority. This philosophy is extremely immature and limited. Why do you think that this is somehow profound?

God or satan.
That is your choice.

I choose God; Satan doesn't exist.

Then he had already defeated you.

I can't be defeated by something that doesn't exist.

He has fed you the lie that he does not exist. He has defeated you.

The Illuminati has fed you the lie that Christianity is truth and Satan exists. The Illuminati has already defeated you.

Do you see how your arguments are futile and can be used against you?

Jesus Christ has spoken to me on a number of occasions.
I'm sorry if my saying the Zeitgeist movie strengthened my faith annoys you, but it happens to be true.
It's a pretty shoddy affair anyway right?

It troubles me that you completely abandon reason and then brag about. "Oh yeah, I watched Zeitgeist which provided a lot of evidence against my beliefs, and guess what, now I believe even more!" That is you being unwilling to accept defeat, yet disguise it by saying it only strengthened your beliefs.

And your reasoned and intellectual response is to say:
" I don't believe you! you're lying! Zeitgeist is the best ever movie ever made coz it's all youtube and underground! how dare you not abandon your faith in favour of it! how dare you! "

I'm not abandoning reason to be able to see that the story of Jesus is a myth. You are abondoning reason and relying on faith to believe the Jesus story is true.

You are trusting sinful, deceitful, fallen MEN.

Actually, it is you who is trusting deceitful men. The Bible was compiled and edited by men who wanted to control and enslave people. King James, Constantine, Council of Nicea. Connect the dots.

How does the fact that men have used the Bible to enslave people in anyway detract from it being the Word of God?
Do you think satan should 'play by the rules'?

Because men who intended to enslave people manipulated the Bible to use it against you. It is not the word of God. If it were, since God is omnipotent, his true words would never be manipulated.

Without Jesus Christ it is YOU who is defeated.

How can you say that with much confidence? Can you prove it? Or is that merely a statement of belief.

I say it (partly) to prove MYSELF to my God.. not the other way round.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)
30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.


Yes, I realize that your god is a warmonger. That's all he is. A hypocritical, warmongering dictator. You think that verse is some kind of profound, philosophic truth? Sorry, but it's more like Alexander the Great threatening those who don't take his side because he is some god-like warrior that you don't want to f with.

It's a spiritual war between Truth (Jesus Christ) and lies (satan)
Which means every time you compromise on the truth in order to 'win' you are selling another piece of yourself to the enemy.
Begin with personal honesty.
The rest is easy.

How can you claim truth without proof? What led you to believe Christ is the truth? How DO YOU KNOW I'm compromising the truth to win? Do you have a reason for saying so? Are you saying it just because you disagree with me or it contradicts your BELIEFS, not empirical truth, BELIEF? You make so many statements with absolute confidence, BUT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BACK IT UP!

That's why it called Faith.

So you admit your statements are entirely baseless. Somehow you feel that because of your faith, you have the right to make statements of absolute certainty about me being deceived by Satan. That is ludicrous because faith by definition is to BLINDLY BELIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT EVIDENCE. You admit that your blindness, or ignorance, grants you the ability to call people pawns of Satan.

Epic fail.

Yes, I am absolutely certain of my beliefs without anything I could remotely call 'evidence'.
I cannot convince anyone who does not want to be convinced.

I can only warn you that you will stand in judgement before Christ.
He is real and wants you to come to Him of your own accord.
Save yourself. Let Him save you.

You know who else is absolutely certain of their beliefs? Mormons, Scientologists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews.

Do you really want to be so arrogant as to claim that all of these other believers are insincere?

They can also warn you, tell you that you need to be saved, and be absolutely certain in their beliefs, so what makes you right?

Give me an honest and reasonable answer.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat