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Benefits of a muslim nation??

bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/18/2012 1:38:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is there was ever a united muslim country, composed of all the islamic countries, what would be the benefits? the problems?
I doubt it would ever happen, ethnic problems, arabs might declare themselves superior
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/18/2012 4:56:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
As somebody who prefers separation of religion and politics I can't say there's too many benefits of this. When religion has too much political power there's always minority groups being persecuted.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/19/2012 4:19:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If I remember my theological classes correctly, is that not the purpose of the Mahdi? He will come unite all the Muslims and assert world rule in the name of Allah?
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/19/2012 7:43:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
not all muslims believe in the mahdi, its kinda a grey area. But the prophet pbuh said that the khilafah would fall, and that eventually it would rise agaiut thats again. But thats hadith, and I'm not too sure of its authenticity.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/19/2012 8:47:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 7:43:37 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
not all muslims believe in the mahdi, its kinda a grey area. But the prophet pbuh said that the khilafah would fall, and that eventually it would rise agaiut thats again. But thats hadith, and I'm not too sure of its authenticity.

I'm pretty positive the mahdi thing is a shi'a belief. It's not in the Qur'an though so I personally think it's nonsense.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/20/2012 10:10:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 7:43:37 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
not all muslims believe in the mahdi, its kinda a grey area. But the prophet pbuh said that the khilafah would fall, and that eventually it would rise agaiut thats again. But thats hadith, and I'm not too sure of its authenticity.

Ah, well given that a Divine person will not come to rule the earth then divided powers would always be a source of protection.
Tyrants only are able to function when power is centralized and secure.
The American Model is divided government, Divided 3 branches and derived from 50 divided states, which in turn have 3 divided governmental branches.

It would be very very very hard for a tyrant to take complete control of America with any speed.

If Jesus Christ came to rule then I would have no problem with God ruling "en Tyrrannus".
A perfect moral being would not abuse absolute rule.
baggins
Posts: 855
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1/20/2012 11:30:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Both Shia and Sunni believe that Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) will come - God willing. He will unite all believers (not just Muslims) against 'Masih Dajjal' (the Liar Christ) who is also known in Christian world as the Anti-Christ. The second coming of Masih Isa or Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) - will take place before they meet the forces of Dajjal in a crucial battle - and he will join and assist the believers. Later on Christ Jesus will lead believers in defense against the Gogg and Maggog (Armageddon).

These details are not there in Quran - but has been covered in several Sahih Ahadith. While Muslims agree about overall picture there are several differences about details. Specifically several important positions and power are associated with Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) by Shia Muslims compared to Sunni Muslims.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/20/2012 12:00:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Assuming the majority of the Muslims are adherent to their religion:

- Religious/ethnic tolerance
- Universal rights for all people
- Gender equality
- Far less fornication -> less STD's, unwanted pregnancies, abortions
- Freedom of speech, freedom of government intervention in personal privacy
- Less greed (Muslims would pay yearly charity, spread and spend wealth properly), banks would not give loans at nonsensically high amounts
- Education would be far better - no factory-like production of people's knowledge (see Qur'an schools; people are taught together despite their ages)
- Far less discrimination and harassment of females (Muslim companies would divide work sections between men and women, greatly decreasing any chances of harassment)
- Privatization and economic freedom would enable the economy to develop rapidly, and inflation would be low with a gold standard
- Scientific and technological growth would be flourishing, both because of better and more open education and because Muslims are obliged to seek knowledge and improve societies

And I can go on.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/20/2012 12:01:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 11:30:02 AM, baggins wrote:
Both Shia and Sunni believe that Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) will come - God willing. He will unite all believers (not just Muslims) against 'Masih Dajjal' (the Liar Christ) who is also known in Christian world as the Anti-Christ. The second coming of Masih Isa or Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) - will take place before they meet the forces of Dajjal in a crucial battle - and he will join and assist the believers. Later on Christ Jesus will lead believers in defense against the Gogg and Maggog (Armageddon).

These details are not there in Quran - but has been covered in several Sahih Ahadith. While Muslims agree about overall picture there are several differences about details. Specifically several important positions and power are associated with Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) by Shia Muslims compared to Sunni Muslims.

I was taught as much but must defer to a more knowledge Muslim on the issue.

Not that I agree with the revisionist theology of the muhammad writings, but the concept of a perfect moral being ruling is not an issue for me.

The question of course is how will the distinction be made between a powerful being and the perfect moral being by the muhammadin believers?
Wandile
Posts: 97
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1/20/2012 12:51:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:00:28 PM, Mirza wrote:
Assuming the majority of the Muslims are adherent to their religion:

- Religious/ethnic tolerance

Is Jizya tax excluded from this? Because that tax is discriminatory and is not a form of religious tolerance.

- Universal rights for all people

Debatable : look in Saudi Arabia. Christians get imprisoned and killed for carrying bibles or preaching in the streets. Jizya tax is also an injustice and thus rights are not universal as non-muslims pay and extra tax.

- Gender equality

Debatable

- Far less fornication -> less STD's, unwanted pregnancies, abortions

True. But that will only be because of people getting imprisoned and killed for these acts which is an infringement on human rights. Unless Islam has a less violent way of dealing with this.

- Freedom of speech, freedom of government intervention in personal privacy

Not true. In Muhammad's day alone, in the Hadith it records of an account of a women who questioned Muhammad's prophethood and Islam. She was kiled for this. I'll get the hadith for you.

- Less greed (Muslims would pay yearly charity, spread and spend wealth properly), banks would not give loans at nonsensically high amounts

Well that is debatable as you are merely making a generalised assumption

- Education would be far better - no factory-like production of people's knowledge (see Qur'an schools; people are taught together despite their ages)

Well that is questionable. Who's education system are you comparing this to?

- Far less discrimination and harassment of females (Muslim companies would divide work sections between men and women, greatly decreasing any chances of harassment)

Yeah but in the western world that is seen as discriminatory. Here in South Africa we wouldn't agree to such nonsense.

- Privatization and economic freedom would enable the economy to develop rapidly, and inflation would be low with a gold standard

Is this taught in the Qur'an? (Sincerely asking).

- Scientific and technological growth would be flourishing, both because of better and more open education and because Muslims are obliged to seek knowledge and improve societies

(1) Well that is better achieved in the secular world as science is the 'religion' of the secular world.

(2) This is debatable because there is a huge contingent of muslims who are anti-science.

And I can go on.

I'm not attacking you. I'm just merely pointing out some problems that I see with your assertions. This is just my opinion on what you have said. Please don't take offence.
"Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under." - Gileandos

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice - Proverb
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/20/2012 8:13:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 11:30:02 AM, baggins wrote:

These details are not there in Quran - but has been covered in several Sahih Ahadith. While Muslims agree about overall picture there are several differences about details. Specifically several important positions and power are associated with Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) by Shia Muslims compared to Sunni Muslims.

See, that's where the problem lies with the whole mahdi theory, it's not recorded in the Qur'an and ahadith are just the writings of a bunch of sexist desert dwellers. Who word should be trusted? Allah's or man's? If I were you, I'd go for God's word... With that said, there's no such thing as a "sahih" hadith.
baggins
Posts: 855
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1/21/2012 2:29:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 8:13:00 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/20/2012 11:30:02 AM, baggins wrote:

These details are not there in Quran - but has been covered in several Sahih Ahadith. While Muslims agree about overall picture there are several differences about details. Specifically several important positions and power are associated with Imam Mehdi (May God's mercy be on him) by Shia Muslims compared to Sunni Muslims.

See, that's where the problem lies with the whole mahdi theory, it's not recorded in the Qur'an and ahadith are just the writings of a bunch of sexist desert dwellers. Who word should be trusted? Allah's or man's? If I were you, I'd go for God's word... With that said, there's no such thing as a "sahih" hadith.

They are not there in Quran - probably because they are not so important. Islam is actually pretty simple. What is required for salvation is that we believe in God, believe in the prophets of God, believe that we will have to account for our deeds after death and lead our life accordingly with prayers and good deeds. The requirement is same from everyone, and there are no shortcuts. Moreover - there is nothing new in this message. Quran is just a reminder for what has already been conveyed to humanity many times over.

Prophecies about future sound fascinating and interesting. But they do not constitute the core of religion. I do not see any problem if there are some differences about it. We will see what is going to happen in future - in future. On other hand I see no harm in having knowledge about prophecies and discussing them.

While it is true some Hadith may not be true - but rejecting all of them outright, based on 21st century definition of sexism sounds like a very extreme approach to me.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/21/2012 2:39:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 2:29:34 AM, baggins wrote:

While it is true some Hadith may not be true - but rejecting all of them outright, based on 21st century definition of sexism sounds like a very extreme approach to me.

Nah, sexism is not my only reason. I just think they're inconsistent and contradictory to the Qur'an in so many ways. Muslims are always parroting that the Qur'an is perfect and complete. Well ok, that's cool, but you better start practicing what you preach. The actual collection of ahadith as claimed by many people doesn't really add up either. Even jut for the Bukhari hadith it's mathematically impossible he collected all those(not to mention he lived 200 years after Muhammad...) I could go on all night...

Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread into a sectarian rant so I'll stop here.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/21/2012 6:19:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/18/2012 1:38:43 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
Is there was ever a united muslim country, composed of all the islamic countries, what would be the benefits? the problems?
I doubt it would ever happen, ethnic problems, arabs might declare themselves superior

Benefits: NONE.

Problems: LEGION.
The Cross.. the Cross.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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1/21/2012 11:19:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 6:19:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/18/2012 1:38:43 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
Is there was ever a united muslim country, composed of all the islamic countries, what would be the benefits? the problems?
I doubt it would ever happen, ethnic problems, arabs might declare themselves superior


Benefits: A lot, as long as it follows the Koran.

Problems: Ignorant people trying to stop it and infuriating the movement.
baggins
Posts: 855
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1/21/2012 1:36:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 2:39:36 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/21/2012 2:29:34 AM, baggins wrote:

While it is true some Hadith may not be true - but rejecting all of them outright, based on 21st century definition of sexism sounds like a very extreme approach to me.

Nah, sexism is not my only reason. I just think they're inconsistent and contradictory to the Qur'an in so many ways. Muslims are always parroting that the Qur'an is perfect and complete. Well ok, that's cool, but you better start practicing what you preach. The actual collection of ahadith as claimed by many people doesn't really add up either. Even jut for the Bukhari hadith it's mathematically impossible he collected all those(not to mention he lived 200 years after Muhammad...) I could go on all night...

I agree with you that we should be paying a lot of attention to the basic teachings from Quran. Still the idea of rejecting everything else in toto still appears weird and unnecessary to me.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread into a sectarian rant so I'll stop here.

Neither do I. So I too will stop.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/21/2012 1:46:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:51:15 PM, Wandile wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:00:28 PM, Mirza wrote:
Assuming the majority of the Muslims are adherent to their religion:

- Religious/ethnic tolerance

Is Jizya tax excluded from this? Because that tax is discriminatory and is not a form of religious tolerance.
How is the jizya discriminatory? Muslims have to pay more than non-Muslims regardless. And, the Muslim government can choose another option than jizya if there are means for it.

But that is far less discriminatory, oppressive, and unjust than all the income taxes and regulations we have on all people in the West.

- Universal rights for all people

Debatable : look in Saudi Arabia. Christians get imprisoned and killed for carrying bibles or preaching in the streets. Jizya tax is also an injustice and thus rights are not universal as non-muslims pay and extra tax.
I didn't use SA as an example of a good Muslim country.

- Gender equality

Debatable

- Far less fornication -> less STD's, unwanted pregnancies, abortions

True. But that will only be because of people getting imprisoned and killed for these acts which is an infringement on human rights. Unless Islam has a less violent way of dealing with this.
No, I said if most Muslims adhere to their religion. They would not fornicate or adulterate much. This would greatly decrease tons of societal problems. Stress, anxiety, family problems, etc etc etc would be fantastically lowered.

- Freedom of speech, freedom of government intervention in personal privacy

Not true. In Muhammad's day alone, in the Hadith it records of an account of a women who questioned Muhammad's prophethood and Islam. She was kiled for this. I'll get the hadith for you.
You're welcome to get it.

- Less greed (Muslims would pay yearly charity, spread and spend wealth properly), banks would not give loans at nonsensically high amounts

Well that is debatable as you are merely making a generalised assumption
Again, I said if Muslims adhere to their religion. And yes, banks would not be allowed to make pre-determined interest on loans, so there would be automatically far less greed.

- Education would be far better - no factory-like production of people's knowledge (see Qur'an schools; people are taught together despite their ages)

Well that is questionable. Who's education system are you comparing this to?
Anything in the world. The factory-system is what we follow today. We are taught everything through compulsion and 19th-century methods. We don't let people express their artistic / creative minds whatsoever. Islam would not divide people into ages and simply let them go through grade 1, 2, 3, etc. See how Qur'an-schools do it. People at ages 4-5 get taught half of the Qur'an or all of it even if their native languages are not Arabic. That's using the methods taught by the Prophet. When I was 3-5 years old, I often got paid by people to recite verses I knew from the Qur'an. I learned them as well as people much older than I was.

The same effectiveness would apply to everything else.

- Far less discrimination and harassment of females (Muslim companies would divide work sections between men and women, greatly decreasing any chances of harassment)

Yeah but in the western world that is seen as discriminatory. Here in South Africa we wouldn't agree to such nonsense.
What nonsense?

- Privatization and economic freedom would enable the economy to develop rapidly, and inflation would be low with a gold standard

Is this taught in the Qur'an? (Sincerely asking).
Some of it, but most comes from hadith (that's where Islamic Law generates from mostly).

- Scientific and technological growth would be flourishing, both because of better and more open education and because Muslims are obliged to seek knowledge and improve societies

(1) Well that is better achieved in the secular world as science is the 'religion' of the secular world.
Our education system is still 19th century.

(2) This is debatable because there is a huge contingent of muslims who are anti-science.
Most are not, especially those in the West. Furthermore, in Al-Andalus Muslims showed how they would deal with politics, science, technology, etc. All was good.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/21/2012 1:49:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 6:19:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/18/2012 1:38:43 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
Is there was ever a united muslim country, composed of all the islamic countries, what would be the benefits? the problems?
I doubt it would ever happen, ethnic problems, arabs might declare themselves superior

Benefits: NONE.

Problems: LEGION.
That contradicts your earlier endorsements of the Islamic states.

But fine, you can disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/21/2012 2:35:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 1:36:00 PM, baggins wrote:

I agree with you that we should be paying a lot of attention to the basic teachings from Quran. Still the idea of rejecting everything else in toto still appears weird and unnecessary to me.

You're welcome to that opinion just like I'm welcome to my opinion. Let's just agree to disagree though.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,758
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1/22/2012 8:19:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/18/2012 1:38:43 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
Is there was ever a united muslim country, composed of all the islamic countries, what would be the benefits? the problems?
I doubt it would ever happen, ethnic problems, arabs might declare themselves superior

Response: If it was composed with all of the existing countries, then there would be chaos, as there is no true islamic country. Yet, if the muslim nations combined and followed the Qur'an and Sunnah, it would be the most fascinating and thriving nation to ever exist and the best of nations.
baggins
Posts: 855
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1/22/2012 9:18:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/21/2012 2:35:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/21/2012 1:36:00 PM, baggins wrote:

I agree with you that we should be paying a lot of attention to the basic teachings from Quran. Still the idea of rejecting everything else in toto still appears weird and unnecessary to me.

You're welcome to that opinion just like I'm welcome to my opinion. Let's just agree to disagree though.

OK...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.