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Catholics and abortion.

Xer
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5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.

And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/31/2009 4:26:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Crackofdawn is most likely going to respond something like "He did grant us perfection but Adam and Eve destroyed it by giving all of us Original Sin by eating the apple from the Garden of Eden after God commanded them not to." Am I right crackofdawn?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/31/2009 4:51:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

The more testing issue for Catholics is the rate of spontaneous abortion, which occurs in around 1 in 4 of all pregnancies.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/31/2009 5:59:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.

And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
Technically he has, with the Bible and with Jesus.
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Because then we would be him. And to create himself is paradoxial to his very nature.

Think about it, would you rather be a perfect, mindless, slave or a imperfect, independent, human being. For if everything was perfect than nothing would be perfect. We would not understand perfection, happiness, joy, or any other emotion. Because nothing bad would happen, nothing good would happen either. The whole point of life would be extinguished.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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5/31/2009 6:00:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 4:26:09 PM, Nags wrote:
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Crackofdawn is most likely going to respond something like "He did grant us perfection but Adam and Eve destroyed it by giving all of us Original Sin by eating the apple from the Garden of Eden after God commanded them not to." Am I right crackofdawn?

We were never really "perfect". Besides, do I look like DATCMOTO to you?
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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5/31/2009 9:57:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 5:59:51 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.

And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
Technically he has, with the Bible and with Jesus.
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Because then we would be him. And to create himself is paradoxial to his very nature.

Think about it, would you rather be a perfect, mindless, slave or a imperfect, independent, human being. For if everything was perfect than nothing would be perfect. We would not understand perfection, happiness, joy, or any other emotion. Because nothing bad would happen, nothing good would happen either. The whole point of life would be extinguished.

Why is creating himself paradoxical to his nature? Can not God make another like himself? If not, why not?

Would I rather be an entirely content happy person doing good under the auspices of an entirely benevolent being or would I rather have the option of being unhappy? Is that really a choice? Regardless of whether or not we could not understand the blissful state we experienced compared to an imperfect state of suffering, if God made everything perfectly, by definition we would be perfectly content. I have no concept of what it is like to be truly tortured, but I am certainly in no hurry to find out. I would imagine I would feel similarly in a perfect state of bliss.

As for the whole point of life being extinguished, I would imagine that one could not conceive of life's point without understanding its meaning. What, then, is the meaning of life, that you are able to state what makes it valuable?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
crackofdawn_Jr
Posts: 1,350
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6/1/2009 2:33:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 9:57:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 5:59:51 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.

And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
Technically he has, with the Bible and with Jesus.
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Because then we would be him. And to create himself is paradoxial to his very nature.

Think about it, would you rather be a perfect, mindless, slave or a imperfect, independent, human being. For if everything was perfect than nothing would be perfect. We would not understand perfection, happiness, joy, or any other emotion. Because nothing bad would happen, nothing good would happen either. The whole point of life would be extinguished.

Why is creating himself paradoxical to his nature? Can not God make another like himself? If not, why not?
Being omniscent and all-powerful means nothing can be as powerful as you because that makes it more powerful than you. But being all-powerful you should also be able to do anything.
Would I rather be an entirely content happy person doing good under the auspices of an entirely benevolent being or would I rather have the option of being unhappy?
You would not be content or happy because there would be nothing to compare to for their to be happiness.
Is that really a choice?
There's always a choice.
Regardless of whether or not we could not understand the blissful state we experienced compared to an imperfect state of suffering, if God made everything perfectly, by definition we would be perfectly content.
Perfection is a paradox. Happiness cannot exist without suffering.
I have no concept of what it is like to be truly tortured, but I am certainly in no hurry to find out. I would imagine I would feel similarly in a perfect state of bliss.
You would feel nothing.
As for the whole point of life being extinguished, I would imagine that one could not conceive of life's point without understanding its meaning. What, then, is the meaning of life, that you are able to state what makes it valuable?
The meaning of life is whatever you make it out to be.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics"
-Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, redefine success"

"Therefore love moderately. Long love doth so.
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow."
- William Shakespeare

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."
- Adolf Hitler
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/1/2009 3:13:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 2:33:50 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 9:57:37 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 5:59:51 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 4:17:18 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 5/31/2009 1:22:39 PM, crackofdawn_Jr wrote:
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

God may know these things but he doesn't "control" them. He can control them, but he doesn't because he gave us free will.

And being omniscient, he must have known that we would kill with that free will. Being omnipotent he could stop us, or directly warn us, at the very least, that we were doing wrong. Why doesn't he?
Technically he has, with the Bible and with Jesus.
If he is testing us, to what purpose? Testing is a process done to ensure perfection of function or understanding. If God is all powerful and all knowing, why did he not grant us perfection and perfect understanding from the start?

Because then we would be him. And to create himself is paradoxial to his very nature.

Think about it, would you rather be a perfect, mindless, slave or a imperfect, independent, human being. For if everything was perfect than nothing would be perfect. We would not understand perfection, happiness, joy, or any other emotion. Because nothing bad would happen, nothing good would happen either. The whole point of life would be extinguished.

Why is creating himself paradoxical to his nature? Can not God make another like himself? If not, why not?
Being omniscent and all-powerful means nothing can be as powerful as you because that makes it more powerful than you. But being all-powerful you should also be able to do anything.
Would I rather be an entirely content happy person doing good under the auspices of an entirely benevolent being or would I rather have the option of being unhappy?
You would not be content or happy because there would be nothing to compare to for their to be happiness.
Is that really a choice?
There's always a choice.
Regardless of whether or not we could not understand the blissful state we experienced compared to an imperfect state of suffering, if God made everything perfectly, by definition we would be perfectly content.
Perfection is a paradox. Happiness cannot exist without suffering.
I have no concept of what it is like to be truly tortured, but I am certainly in no hurry to find out. I would imagine I would feel similarly in a perfect state of bliss.
You would feel nothing.
As for the whole point of life being extinguished, I would imagine that one could not conceive of life's point without understanding its meaning. What, then, is the meaning of life, that you are able to state what makes it valuable?
The meaning of life is whatever you make it out to be.

So, though it is paradoxical, you would submit that God, being all-powerful, could create another being like himself? If he did so, would he still be all powerful? If not, doesn't that mean that God's power is limited?

You stated that in a state of perfect bliss I would feel nothing. That seems impossible given that we have already defined the state as perfect bliss, which I would take to mean bliss so perfect one would must surely recognize and appreciate it, without feeling nauseated by it. If God is all-powerful, surely he could induce such a state. So I think it must be wrong to say that I would feel nothing in a state of perfect bliss, though you are free to correct me if I have misunderstood. :)

As for paradoxes, if God writes the rules of time and space I'm sure he must also write the rules of logic as well, and a paradox would be little hindrance to his authority.

If the meaning of life is, as you have stated, whatever you make it out to be, doesn't that mean that God is indifferent to our decisions?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/1/2009 4:01:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Knowing that something can happen and not preventing it AND doing something ARE different things.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/1/2009 4:05:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 4:01:16 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Knowing that something can happen and not preventing it AND doing something ARE different things.

I agree. One is negligence, the other is malice. Neither is a very good attitude for anyone to have.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/1/2009 4:05:02 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/1/2009 4:01:16 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Knowing that something can happen and not preventing it AND doing something ARE different things.

I agree. One is negligence, the other is malice. Neither is a very good attitude for anyone to have.

God is not omnipotent in the sense that you all imply.
The only inherent contradiction is within the term omnipotence itself.
You cannot (even if you are God) make a square circle.
The free will argument, far from being laughable, is essential not only to understanding reality but also the nature of God Himself.
He did not create Adam and Eve with free will.
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.
He gave them a choice. That one (wrong) choice led to free will and the absolute distaster you see around you at all times.
Questions?

Colossians 2:8 (The Message)

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.

The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/3/2009 4:13:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.

Wow. This just proves that religion is a device for enslavement. The Illuminati +1, the religious -1, for falling into the trap. Congratulations, you are a proud, self-described slave.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/3/2009 5:00:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 4:13:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.

Wow. This just proves that religion is a device for enslavement. The Illuminati +1, the religious -1, for falling into the trap. Congratulations, you are a proud, self-described slave.

*"wow"-records supposed emotional response to imply moral/intellectual superiority*

No, it proves that God never lies. He warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and the results are plain to see.
You continually introduce your own agenda (infantile conspiracy theories) at the expense of the argument at hand. (free will from a Christian perspective)

The illuminati couldn't tie up their own shoe laces without satan telling them how.

Colossians 2:8 (The Message)

8-10Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/3/2009 5:09:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

God is not omnipotent in the sense that you all imply.
The only inherent contradiction is within the term omnipotence itself.
You cannot (even if you are God) make a square circle.
The free will argument, far from being laughable, is essential not only to understanding reality but also the nature of God Himself.
He did not create Adam and Eve with free will.
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.
He gave them a choice. That one (wrong) choice led to free will and the absolute distaster you see around you at all times.
Questions?

Sure! Couldn't God rewrite our minds so that we recognized either a square or a circle as a 'square-circle?' I mean, that's a matter of conceptualization, and if God has absolute power over our minds, surely he could have us conceive of a square or a circle as a square circle if he chose. In much the same way, he could arguably have us experience agony as bliss and erase human suffering. Also, If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't free will be essential to making a valid choice? How then could Adam and Eve choose without that choice being preordained by God?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/3/2009 12:26:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 5:00:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:13:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.

Wow. This just proves that religion is a device for enslavement. The Illuminati +1, the religious -1, for falling into the trap. Congratulations, you are a proud, self-described slave.

*"wow"-records supposed emotional response to imply moral/intellectual superiority*

"Wow," was a statement expressing shock. Shocked that you actually believe free will is a curse.

No, it proves that God never lies. He warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and the results are plain to see.

Big deal. God said if you eat the fruit, you will be punished, and he actually punished him. You call that some honorable great feat for an omnipotent being? That is absolutely pathetic. Not to mention, God apparently knew before hand that he would eat it.

You continually introduce your own agenda (infantile conspiracy theories) at the expense of the argument at hand. (free will from a Christian perspective)

I don't have an agenda nor am I gaining anything, I'm giving.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/3/2009 8:21:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/31/2009 12:36:06 PM, Nags wrote:
According to Catholicism, God determines when you are born and when you will die. So, God knows when and how everyone will die. That means that God is the one who makes babies die from abortion. Thus, God and Catholics support abortion.

I just have to say that as an atheist, i have heard a lot of arguments for and against god and abortion; this argument is a little weak (as an opening, i havent read much else) Many christians as well as atheists will agree that humans have free will. this creates a problem, if there are billions of people running around the world with free will, how can god honestly be all knowing. the main problem is: how can god sit in his throne, knowing that an abortion will happen and yet do nothing to stop it. so in a sence you are right in saying that god supports abortion.

the other reason why this argument does not fully work at all levels is that people need to agree that a feetus is a person. i personally disagree with that. what makes a person is what goes on inside their head. neither a heart nor any thing else can make up a person except their brain. i have created a list of reasons why a fetus is not a person:

A living person has:
1. dreams/hopes
2. interpersonal relationships
3. self awareness
4. thoughts and ideas

the most important ones are the first two. a fetus does not have any of those. any way, good work. use this list if you find it useful.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2009 6:57:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 5:09:55 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 4:07:54 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

God is not omnipotent in the sense that you all imply.
The only inherent contradiction is within the term omnipotence itself.
You cannot (even if you are God) make a square circle.
The free will argument, far from being laughable, is essential not only to understanding reality but also the nature of God Himself.
He did not create Adam and Eve with free will.
In a sense free will is the curse, the fall of mankind.
He gave them a choice. That one (wrong) choice led to free will and the absolute disaster you see around you at all times.
Questions?

Sure! Couldn't God rewrite our minds so that we recognized either a square or a circle as a 'square-circle?' I mean, that's a matter of conceptualization, and if God has absolute power over our minds, surely he could have us conceive of a square or a circle as a square circle if he chose. In much the same way, he could arguably have us experience agony as bliss and erase human suffering. Also, If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't free will be essential to making a valid choice? How then could Adam and Eve choose without that choice being preordained by God?

You are talking about perception. So if God allowed us to perceive a circle as a square he would only be allowing us to be deceived.
A square cannot be a circle and vice versa.
Reality has limits.

In the garden Adam and Eve had only one thing they were not allowed to do.
God specifically warned them that they would die.
So, it comes down to trust. Trust Gods Word or satans.

Same goes for:
Creation/evolution
Life after death
Heaven/hell
Second coming of Christ

You either trust Gods Word on these things or the worlds. (satans)

Hebrews 11:1 (The Message)

Hebrews 11
Faith in What We Don't See
1-2The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It's our handle on what we can't see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/4/2009 7:07:14 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 6:57:36 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

You are talking about perception. So if God allowed us to perceive a circle as a square he would only be allowing us to be deceived.
A square cannot be a circle and vice versa.
Reality has limits.

But God does not. Could he not reshape reality so that the concept of square and circle existed simultaneously in same representation? This would not be a deceit, if he willed it, but reality.

In the garden Adam and Eve had only one thing they were not allowed to do.
God specifically warned them that they would die.
So, it comes down to trust. Trust Gods Word or satans.

Doesn't answer the question. Regardless of whether or not they had trust, if they had no free will, how could they have acted on their own volition? Were they actually distrustful of God (free will exists) or did God make them distrustful to set them up (free will doesn't exist).
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2009 8:15:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 7:07:14 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/4/2009 6:57:36 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

You are talking about perception. So if God allowed us to perceive a circle as a square he would only be allowing us to be deceived.
A square cannot be a circle and vice versa.
Reality has limits.

But God does not. Could he not reshape reality so that the concept of square and circle existed simultaneously in same representation? This would not be a deceit, if he willed it, but reality.

Yes He does.
"Anything is possible with God." But only that which is possible.
It is impossible to make a square circle because the definition would cease.

In the garden Adam and Eve had only one thing they were not allowed to do.
God specifically warned them that they would die.
So, it comes down to trust. Trust Gods Word or satans.

Doesn't answer the question. Regardless of whether or not they had trust, if they had no free will, how could they have acted on their own volition? Were they actually distrustful of God (free will exists) or did God make them distrustful to set them up (free will doesn't exist).

They were tempted. they were cheated.
They did not have complete free will. In a sense the choice was whether to have free will or not. (the knowledge of good and evil=choice.. choice to murder etc)

2 Corinthians 10:5 (The Message)

3-6The world is unprincipled. It's dog-eat-dog out there! The world doesn't fight fair. But we don't live or fight our battles that way—never have and never will. The tools of our trade aren't for marketing or manipulation, but they are for demolishing that entire massively corrupt culture. We use our powerful God-tools for smashing warped philosophies, tearing down barriers erected against the truth of God, fitting every loose thought and emotion and impulse into the structure of life shaped by Christ. Our tools are ready at hand for clearing the ground of every obstruction and building lives of obedience into maturity.

The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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6/4/2009 9:17:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 8:15:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Yes He does.
"Anything is possible with God." But only that which is possible.
It is impossible to make a square circle because the definition would cease.

So God has limitations? What are they? I thought that, if he needed to, God could reshape any aspect of existence. That capability would be needed to be able to affect everything, even if you didn't change the largest features of the Universe. Why then couldn't God reshape the logic behind geometry to allow for a square circle?

They were tempted. they were cheated.
They did not have complete free will. In a sense the choice was whether to have free will or not. (the knowledge of good and evil=choice.. choice to murder etc)


So they had quasi-free will? Can will actually be free if it's limited? Can a person with a limited will making a fully conscious choice regarding free will? Isn't that a contradiction? If Satan was responsible, as a being possessing free will, wouldn't he bear the full blame, for directing non-autonomous constructs against the will of their Creator?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/4/2009 10:52:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 9:17:43 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/4/2009 8:15:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Yes He does.
"Anything is possible with God." But only that which is possible.
It is impossible to make a square circle because the definition would cease.

So God has limitations? What are they? I thought that, if he needed to, God could reshape any aspect of existence. That capability would be needed to be able to affect everything, even if you didn't change the largest features of the Universe. Why then couldn't God reshape the logic behind geometry to allow for a square circle?

You thought wrong. God is limited first and foremost by His own nature. He is utterly good, utterly Holy and utterly Just, which means He cannot sin, cannot manipulate etc.
This means that reality itself has an immutable quality.
All you have achieved is to expose to limitations of the term omnipotence.

They were tempted. they were cheated.
They did not have complete free will. In a sense the choice was whether to have free will or not. (the knowledge of good and evil=choice.. choice to murder etc)


So they had quasi-free will? Can will actually be free if it's limited? Can a person with a limited will making a fully conscious choice regarding free will? Isn't that a contradiction? If Satan was responsible, as a being possessing free will, wouldn't he bear the full blame, for directing non-autonomous constructs against the will of their Creator?

No, they were free to do anything within the will of God but ignorant of sin.
The 'fruit of the tree of knowledge' represents the choice to know.
As we cannot handle this knowledge God gave Adam a stern warning.. That He would die, and he did die, spiritually and ,later on, physically.
A choice is a choice, no matter what influences there are.
When you get right down to it that's all we are.. a choice machine. YES/NO

Proverbs 1:29
Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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6/5/2009 8:01:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 10:52:35 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
You thought wrong. God is limited first and foremost by His own nature. He is utterly good, utterly Holy and utterly Just, which means He cannot sin, cannot manipulate etc.
This means that reality itself has an immutable quality.
All you have achieved is to expose to limitations of the term omnipotence.

God can not change his own nature?


No, they were free to do anything within the will of God but ignorant of sin.
The 'fruit of the tree of knowledge' represents the choice to know.
As we cannot handle this knowledge God gave Adam a stern warning.. That He would die, and he did die, spiritually and ,later on, physically.
A choice is a choice, no matter what influences there are.
When you get right down to it that's all we are.. a choice machine. YES/NO

Yes, but choice has no meaning if you are a puppet on a string. If I pull the trigger on a gun, shooting and killing a person, I can not blame the person's murder on the gun. If God made man so that man would be tempted, and gave him no free will to resist the temptation, how could he expect a different result?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/6/2009 6:46:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/5/2009 8:01:56 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/4/2009 10:52:35 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
You thought wrong. God is limited first and foremost by His own nature. He is utterly good, utterly Holy and utterly Just, which means He cannot sin, cannot manipulate etc.
This means that reality itself has an immutable quality.
All you have achieved is to expose to limitations of the term omnipotence.

God can not change his own nature?

No. He is utterly good, just and Holy.. He cannot be anything else. And a VERY good thing to!
No, they were free to do anything within the will of God but ignorant of sin.
The 'fruit of the tree of knowledge' represents the choice to know.
As we cannot handle this knowledge God gave Adam a stern warning.. That He would die, and he did die, spiritually and ,later on, physically.
A choice is a choice, no matter what influences there are.
When you get right down to it that's all we are.. a choice machine. YES/NO

Yes, but choice has no meaning if you are a puppet on a string. If I pull the trigger on a gun, shooting and killing a person, I can not blame the person's murder on the gun. If God made man so that man would be tempted, and gave him no free will to resist the temptation, how could he expect a different result?

He had a choice. He chose to disobey God. He could have chosen not to.
No matter how you squirm and wriggle you cannot escape the fact that Adam HAD. A. CHOICE.

1 Corinthians 1:20 (New King James Version)
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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6/6/2009 8:34:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/6/2009 6:46:28 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

He had a choice. He chose to disobey God. He could have chosen not to.
No matter how you squirm and wriggle you cannot escape the fact that Adam HAD. A. CHOICE.

But no free will. He had the same choice that the gun had to not fire bullets. Unless the gun malfunctions, it fires. It's like if you built the perfect gun, loaded it with bullets, pointed the gun at your foot and fired. Sure you might be temporarily angry at the gun, but eventually you would realize that it was your own fault for shooting yourself. You're not going to kick the gun away and yell at it for not having jammed. You made it. You knew what it would do under the right circumstances. You allowed those circumstances to occur. How are you not responsible for the result?
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
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6/8/2009 10:09:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/6/2009 8:34:44 AM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/6/2009 6:46:28 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

He had a choice. He chose to disobey God. He could have chosen not to.
No matter how you squirm and wriggle you cannot escape the fact that Adam HAD. A. CHOICE.

But no free will. He had the same choice that the gun had to not fire bullets. Unless the gun malfunctions, it fires. It's like if you built the perfect gun, loaded it with bullets, pointed the gun at your foot and fired. Sure you might be temporarily angry at the gun, but eventually you would realize that it was your own fault for shooting yourself. You're not going to kick the gun away and yell at it for not having jammed. You made it. You knew what it would do under the right circumstances. You allowed those circumstances to occur. How are you not responsible for the result?

Limited free will.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
Choice A: You obey God and do not eat from the tree of knowledge.
Choice B: You disobey God and do eat from the tree of knowledge.
Your argument (if I am understanding you correctly) is that God can either make us strong enough to resist temptation or too weak to.. hence there is no such thing as free will at all.
Is this what you believe?

Leviticus 22:29
And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the LORD, offer it of your own free will
The Cross.. the Cross.
Lexicaholic
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6/8/2009 3:04:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/8/2009 10:09:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Limited free will.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
Choice A: You obey God and do not eat from the tree of knowledge.
Choice B: You disobey God and do eat from the tree of knowledge.
Your argument (if I am understanding you correctly) is that God can either make us strong enough to resist temptation or too weak to.. hence there is no such thing as free will at all.
Is this what you believe?

Somewhat. As a theory, I prefer quantum mechanics, which tends to support the idea that stuff happens, but some stuff is more likely than others. Close enough.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.