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Mountebanks and Bronze Age Fairy Tales

tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/19/2012 11:19:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here are two observations that I've made about my fellow human beings; I'm sure everyone can agree on these...

1) Human beings will lie to get other people to do what they want, regardless of whether their intentions are good or bad.
2) Human beings have been known to make-up stories to explain that which is yet unexplained.

How can anyone believe that people 1800-3500 years ago were any different?

We have these books, the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Is it so outside the realm of possibility that these books are mere fabrications?

The Old Testament is nothing but archaic nonsense, full of antiquated codswollop. It is a great piece of literature only in the sense that it gives us some insight in to the mindset of our ancient peers, however much of the moral teachings of it are completely horrendous, applying only to a time long since past...

The writers of the New Testament are lucky IP laws didn't exist or they would have gotten owned. Almost every supernatural element of the tale of Jesus, from the virgin birth, being the son of God, the miracles and the resurrection can be seen in other mythologies. We KNOW Constantine took all the pagan rituals and feasts enjoyed by his soldiers and integrated them into Christian culture so he would have less resistance in having everyone follow the same religion...
How do we know the people who collected the gospels and decided "These are the best and most accurate accounts" even knew they were the "best and most accurate"? Because someone says so? *facepalm* They couldn't POSSIBLE have had ulterior motives... Could they? Perhaps the truthful accounts were much less impressive (not that I find the miracles of Bible Jesus remotely impressive) and were discarded.

The worst thing is that somehow people buy that The One and Only God, who created everything, somehow decided that people in a certain part of the world were deserving of learning about his glory and others weren't.
Explain why Christianity didn't spring up simultaneously in many parts of the world? Not even two. There are people around the world who don't, even now, know who Jesus was!
How is that fair? What is the almighty plan there? Jesus is the only way to salvation BUT, if you happen to be born in the Amazon Jungle, tough luck bucko.
It makes no sense and seems like a massive, gaping hole in any argument for one God or another.

What DOES make sense is that some PEOPLE; normal, conniving, manipulative, probably very smart but definitely evil PEOPLE came up with Christianity.

I mean, the idea of the supernatural exists everywhere, I can't deny that... but the explanations for the supernatural seem only to be limited by the imaginations of the PEOPLE who come up with them. Australian Aboriginals have their dreamtime stories. Haitians have their voodoo. The list of 'explanations for everything' is quite large and varied... Almost as though they evolved as different cultures formed when humans spread across the Earth and were separated.

Occams razor at it's finest.

So, yeah. That's my little rant for January. Feel free to ignore it (as most people seem to do with my rants).
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JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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1/20/2012 12:14:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Or, perhaps there is a creator, and this creator understands that different people are different, so gives them truths or stories or whatever that will best teach them and give them direction to have the best lives possible.

I'm extremely tired, and probably rambling...

I definitely believe in some form of God due to personal experiences. I have seen with my own eyes a truly miraculous life-saving event, with someone who was literally minutes away from death. Dozens of times my own life/health has been spared in a very supernatural way. And above all, I have had extremely personal(a special kind of intimate) experiences regarding communication between myself and said diety.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/20/2012 4:10:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This appears to be what you are saying.

P1) All people are moral degenerates and liars
P2) Tvellot does not like the Biblical explanation of supernaturalism

Conclusion) The Biblical explanation was created by degenerates and liars.

This would be different than the actual:
P1) All people CAN be degenerates and lie
P2) The Biblical records are records of people who eschewed degeneration and lieing
P3) The Biblical explanation of supernaturalism CAN and has been experientially verified.

Conclusion) The Bible is not records of and by liars while also true is the fact supernaturalistic explanation has been experientially verified historically by millions of Priests, Theologians, Monks and even Pastors.

I see a distinct difference.
Jon1
Posts: 314
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1/20/2012 5:09:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:19:32 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Here are two observations that I've made about my fellow human beings; I'm sure everyone can agree on these...

1) Human beings will lie to get other people to do what they want, regardless of whether their intentions are good or bad.
2) Human beings have been known to make-up stories to explain that which is yet unexplained.

How can anyone believe that people 1800-3500 years ago were any different?

We have these books, the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Is it so outside the realm of possibility that these books are mere fabrications?

The Old Testament is nothing but archaic nonsense, full of antiquated codswollop. It is a great piece of literature only in the sense that it gives us some insight in to the mindset of our ancient peers, however much of the moral teachings of it are completely horrendous, applying only to a time long since past...

The writers of the New Testament are lucky IP laws didn't exist or they would have gotten owned. Almost every supernatural element of the tale of Jesus, from the virgin birth, being the son of God, the miracles and the resurrection can be seen in other mythologies. We KNOW Constantine took all the pagan rituals and feasts enjoyed by his soldiers and integrated them into Christian culture so he would have less resistance in having everyone follow the same religion...
How do we know the people who collected the gospels and decided "These are the best and most accurate accounts" even knew they were the "best and most accurate"? Because someone says so? *facepalm* They couldn't POSSIBLE have had ulterior motives... Could they? Perhaps the truthful accounts were much less impressive (not that I find the miracles of Bible Jesus remotely impressive) and were discarded.

The worst thing is that somehow people buy that The One and Only God, who created everything, somehow decided that people in a certain part of the world were deserving of learning about his glory and others weren't.
Explain why Christianity didn't spring up simultaneously in many parts of the world? Not even two. There are people around the world who don't, even now, know who Jesus was!
How is that fair? What is the almighty plan there? Jesus is the only way to salvation BUT, if you happen to be born in the Amazon Jungle, tough luck bucko.
It makes no sense and seems like a massive, gaping hole in any argument for one God or another.

What DOES make sense is that some PEOPLE; normal, conniving, manipulative, probably very smart but definitely evil PEOPLE came up with Christianity.

I mean, the idea of the supernatural exists everywhere, I can't deny that... but the explanations for the supernatural seem only to be limited by the imaginations of the PEOPLE who come up with them. Australian Aboriginals have their dreamtime stories. Haitians have their voodoo. The list of 'explanations for everything' is quite large and varied... Almost as though they evolved as different cultures formed when humans spread across the Earth and were separated.

Occams razor at it's finest.

So, yeah. That's my little rant for January. Feel free to ignore it (as most people seem to do with my rants).

I will. A well laid out argument, however, I will not ignore.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/20/2012 11:25:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:14:20 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Or, perhaps there is a creator, and this creator understands that different people are different, so gives them truths or stories or whatever that will best teach them and give them direction to have the best lives possible.

But... Doesn't Jesus explicitly say that he is the only path to Heaven? I'm sure he does. Don't make me go and look for verses. >_<

I definitely believe in some form of God due to personal experiences. I have seen with my own eyes a truly miraculous life-saving event, with someone who was literally minutes away from death. Dozens of times my own life/health has been spared in a very supernatural way. And above all, I have had extremely personal(a special kind of intimate) experiences regarding communication between myself and said diety.

This is the same clap-trap I hear all the time. Why are YOU so special that you're deserving of favours from the almighty? ("Whoops, ol' Jaxsons in trouble again.. better defy the whole free-will thing and intervene.").
I believe DOCTORS and NURSES save lives, with medical science. If people get sick or hurt, they should go to the HOSPITAL, not the church.
Besides, how "miraculous" were these so called experiences of yours? Truly? Did anything that defies the laws of physics happen? REALLY?
Come on man, you're grasping as straws.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/20/2012 11:35:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 4:10:40 PM, Gileandos wrote:
This appears to be what you are saying.

P1) All people are moral degenerates and liars
P2) Tvellot does not like the Biblical explanation of supernaturalism

More or less. I don't believe all people are degenerates or liars. There are truly people of George Washington/Abe Lincoln level truthfulness and integrity in the world.
Also, it's not only that I don't like the Biblical explanation but that I can't intellectually accept that anyone takes the Bible as being remotely factual. It doesn't make SENSE to me. It's an ancient book of fairy tales. Seriously, how do you know that some powerful leader didn't take that book and say "We're going to force this sh!t down peoples throats so they do what we want them to do"?

Oh wait, we know someone DID that! His name was Constantine.

Conclusion) The Biblical explanation was created by degenerates and liars.

Well yeah. There could be some mentally ill people involved too.

This would be different than the actual:
P1) All people CAN be degenerates and lie
P2) The Biblical records are records of people who eschewed degeneration and lieing
Right.
Because people who publicly "eschew" certain behaviours are always being completely honest.
We've got like 1500 years of records of child abuse in the Catholic Church, yet they "eschew" such things. Get a grip.

P3) The Biblical explanation of supernaturalism CAN and has been experientially verified.
Here we go again.
Eye witness reports mean bugger all mate, when you don't have other evidence.

Conclusion) The Bible is not records of and by liars while also true is the fact supernaturalistic explanation has been experientially verified historically by millions of Priests, Theologians, Monks and even Pastors.
Self.
Delusion.



I see a distinct difference.
We're both heavily biased.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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1/20/2012 11:36:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 5:09:38 PM, Jon1 wrote:
A well laid out argument, however, I will not ignore.

Not really making an argument per se. Just my opinion and observations.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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