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Do Mormons believe that God was created?

joneszj
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1/19/2012 11:41:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345)

If God is a man as we are now since we are created does that mean that the Mormon God who is a man was created?
JaxsonRaine
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1/19/2012 11:52:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:41:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345)

If God is a man as we are now since we are created does that mean that the Mormon God who is a man was created?

Yes, but not in regards to the Plan of Salvation. Essentially, everything that concerns us was created for us by God. The planet, stars, us, etc... Anything that comes before that isn't truly our concern. That might not be exactly the Mormon viewpoint on it, but I think it's close.

Everything given to us in scripture is given to us to help us through the trial of mortal life. My bet is, there is much more to God than we could physically comprehend anyway.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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1/20/2012 12:08:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:58:13 PM, joneszj wrote:
Do Mormons have any basis to believe anything existed before God from the Bible?

I've pointed things out to you before. But, because you don't agree with certain things, you think that they aren't valid justification for belief. You truly have set yourself up as a judge.

"The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do". That can be understood that Christ went through mortality in the same way the Father did.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be : but we know that, when he shall appear , we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is ."

There are others... The fact is, they believe in the Bible, and their beliefs are in the Bible, according to their understanding, meaning they are truly trying to follow Christ, as should every Christian.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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1/20/2012 12:10:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:58:13 PM, joneszj wrote:
Do Mormons have any basis to believe anything existed before God from the Bible?

I think the understanding is that God is everlasting in as much as he created the universe (which is space and time), meaning that in our universe, God has been God from the beginning.

Anyway, the scripture about Christ doing what he had seen the Father do applies to this as well.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:22:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:58:13 PM, joneszj wrote:
Do Mormons have any basis to believe anything existed before God from the Bible?

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said." --- Joseph Smith Jr.

We are not saying there is any God greater then God the father, nor will there ever be. Is it hard to believe God walked the earth like a man? Do you not believe in the trinity, in which Jesus is also God the Father? Then you also believe that God walked the earth like a man. What is the difference between our doctrines? They are one in the same, just different words. We believe God the father walked the earth as a man.

----
It is important to remember that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe the Bible is inerrant, although our beliefs can be justified using the Bible.

How can the Bible be inerrant? How can that be when it is has been translated by many different men? Men have created many different versions of the Bible; with that in mind how is it inerrant? Do tell, do tell!

It would be wise for you to ponder these things out in your mind and pray about them.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:26:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How can the Bible be inerrant? How can that be when it is has been translated by many different men? Men have created many different versions of the Bible; with that in mind how is it inerrant? Do tell, do tell!

You also need to look up the apocrypha. How does that factor into the Bible being inerrant?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:27:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/19/2012 11:58:13 PM, joneszj wrote:
Do Mormons have any basis to believe anything existed before God from the Bible?

We don't believe that, see previous post....
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 12:43:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:26:41 AM, tyler90az wrote:
How can the Bible be inerrant? How can that be when it is has been translated by many different men? Men have created many different versions of the Bible; with that in mind how is it inerrant? Do tell, do tell!


You also need to look up the apocrypha. How does that factor into the Bible being inerrant?

Can you create a new post for this topic? I'd rather avoid it becoming a massive thread with 20 questions/responses each post. However, since it is here read this article: http://carm.org...

Then if you want to continue the discussion on the topic please make a new thread :)
joneszj
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1/20/2012 12:49:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:27:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 1/19/2012 11:58:13 PM, joneszj wrote:
Do Mormons have any basis to believe anything existed before God from the Bible?

We don't believe that, see previous post....

I read your post and I will say I enjoyed it. But I don't see how it answered the question. From the Bible do Mormons have any basis to believe that anything existed before God? Your response was text from Joseph Smith Jr. not the Bible.

Also, can you specify what it is you don't believe? Are you saying that Mormons do not believe anything (anywhere, any universe) existed before God?

Totally for clarification purposes. No disrespect intended.
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:49:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:43:41 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:26:41 AM, tyler90az wrote:
How can the Bible be inerrant? How can that be when it is has been translated by many different men? Men have created many different versions of the Bible; with that in mind how is it inerrant? Do tell, do tell!


You also need to look up the apocrypha. How does that factor into the Bible being inerrant?

Can you create a new post for this topic? I'd rather avoid it becoming a massive thread with 20 questions/responses each post. However, since it is here read this article: http://carm.org...

Then if you want to continue the discussion on the topic please make a new thread :)

Rather the Bible is inerrant or not is very pertinent to this discussion, especially when the only proof you rely on is from the Bible. You also asked for proof from the Bible in this thread.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 12:56:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:49:22 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:43:41 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:26:41 AM, tyler90az wrote:
How can the Bible be inerrant? How can that be when it is has been translated by many different men? Men have created many different versions of the Bible; with that in mind how is it inerrant? Do tell, do tell!


You also need to look up the apocrypha. How does that factor into the Bible being inerrant?

Can you create a new post for this topic? I'd rather avoid it becoming a massive thread with 20 questions/responses each post. However, since it is here read this article: http://carm.org...

Then if you want to continue the discussion on the topic please make a new thread :)

Rather the Bible is inerrant or not is very pertinent to this discussion, especially when the only proof you rely on is from the Bible. You also asked for proof from the Bible in this thread.

It is pertinent to the discussion and it is also assumed that Mormons believe in the Bible. I asked for prove from the Bible not from Joseph Smith. If in your post Smith quoted from the Bible a verse or an interpretation of a verse that alludes to either God existing before everything or things existed before God- would you mind showing it to me?
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:57:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I read your post and I will say I enjoyed it. But I don't see how it answered the question. From the Bible do Mormons have any basis to believe that anything existed before God? Your response was text from Joseph Smith Jr. not the Bible.

Also, can you specify what it is you don't believe? Are you saying that Mormons do not believe anything (anywhere, any universe) existed before God?

Totally for clarification purposes. No disrespect intended.

That is exactly what I am saying.... God created everything... Some in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also believed he walked the earth,(Jesus created, he instructed) like a man. I am one of those who do believe that.

You need to remember that like the Bible, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint teachings are interpreted differently by different people.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 1:07:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is pertinent to the discussion and it is also assumed that Mormons believe in the Bible. I asked for prove from the Bible not from Joseph Smith. If in your post Smith quoted from the Bible a verse or an interpretation of a verse that alludes to either God existing before everything or things existed before God- would you mind showing it to me?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe the Bible is inerrant...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe in a closed cannon..

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe in closed revelation...

With that in mind, you are required to provide proof those three things are true, if you want your argument to be valid. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints your argument makes no sense. Although, Joseph Smith did show proof from the Bible.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 1:17:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:57:56 AM, tyler90az wrote:
I read your post and I will say I enjoyed it. But I don't see how it answered the question. From the Bible do Mormons have any basis to believe that anything existed before God? Your response was text from Joseph Smith Jr. not the Bible.

Also, can you specify what it is you don't believe? Are you saying that Mormons do not believe anything (anywhere, any universe) existed before God?

Totally for clarification purposes. No disrespect intended.

That is exactly what I am saying.... God created everything... Some in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also believed he walked the earth,(Jesus created, he instructed) like a man. I am one of those who do believe that.

You need to remember that like the Bible, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint teachings are interpreted differently by different people.

Thanks Tyler you really helped clear that up a bit for me. Until I just read that Mormons believe that the Father has a Father. If that is true then now I am really confused. If God created everything how then can He Himself have a father? I understand that your teachings may be interpreted differently but is that taught by the official Mormon church? If so, would you mind rectifying how God can have a father if God created everything?

Also. if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Thanks! Ill respond tomorrow its pretty late here. Good night.
joneszj
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1/20/2012 1:26:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 1:07:38 AM, tyler90az wrote:
It is pertinent to the discussion and it is also assumed that Mormons believe in the Bible. I asked for prove from the Bible not from Joseph Smith. If in your post Smith quoted from the Bible a verse or an interpretation of a verse that alludes to either God existing before everything or things existed before God- would you mind showing it to me?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe the Bible is inerrant...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe in a closed cannon..

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe in closed revelation...

With that in mind, you are required to provide proof those three things are true, if you want your argument to be valid. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints your argument makes no sense. Although, Joseph Smith did show proof from the Bible.

Its not an argument. Its a question. The only statement I made was that it is assumed that Mormons believe the Bible (clarification: even if they believe is is not inerrant, or closed). Me asking 'what basis do Mormons have from the Bible that anything existed before God' is in no way an argument. There are three possible answers: 1 you provide a verse from the Bible that gives basis for this belief, 2 you cannot provide a verse from the Bible and derive that doctrine from other scripture, or 3 LDS do not teach that anything existed before God.

Again, please don't take my "tone" as intending disrespect.
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 9:33:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have answered your question, yet you remain in attack mode. Why harp on the same thing when I have already given you an answer? No, we do not believe in an existence prior to God. What some in the church believe is that God created the earth, then walked on it as a man. Is that not what Jesus did? For you to keep harping on the same thing over and over, when I have given you an answer, shows weak debate skills. If you have evidence we do believe that, then provide the evidence.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 9:35:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How convenient you skip a bunch of questions.

We are not saying there is any God greater then God the father, nor will there ever be. Is it hard to believe God walked the earth like a man? Do you not believe in the trinity, in which Jesus is also God the Father? Then you also believe that God walked the earth like a man. What is the difference between our doctrines? They are one in the same, just different words. We believe God the father walked the earth as a man.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 11:21:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 9:33:44 AM, tyler90az wrote:
I have answered your question, yet you remain in attack mode. Why harp on the same thing when I have already given you an answer? No, we do not believe in an existence prior to God. What some in the church believe is that God created the earth, then walked on it as a man. Is that not what Jesus did? For you to keep harping on the same thing over and over, when I have given you an answer, shows weak debate skills. If you have evidence we do believe that, then provide the evidence.

Wow dude. I am not in attack mode. This is what we have exchanged so far:

1 I asked if Mormons have basis in the Bible to believe anything exists before God
2 You responded quoting Joseph Smith, not the Bible. You also said "We don't believe that".
3 I said that your response did not answer my question and explained why. So I asked you to specify what it is you don't believe (as what you said was totally ambiguous), and to point out a verse Smith used to determine anything existed before God if he did.
4 You specified in that you meant God created everything.
5 I said thank you and that you helped a lot. Then I came across a supposed Mormon teaching that God the Father had a father and that father had a father and so on. This presents an immediate logical inconsistency. So I asked if this was an official Mormon teaching and if it is could you reason how it is possible that if God created everything how does He have a father? I also said that if God existed before anything that would make Him eternal and asked why then would Smith refute the idea that God is eternal.
6 You then list the Mormon viewpoint of the Bible and determine that my questions are arguments. I am merely attempting to reason Mormon theology not to prove it wrong. I understand that things may seem at first inconsistent logically but with deeper examination it can be proved to not be inconsistent. All I am asking for is to reason what you have said logically. Maybe it is attacking? I am just trying to understand.

So, thus far, you have answered my initial question by saying "God created everything". Unanswered are: (1) is the teaching that God the father had a father that had a father etc. an official Mormon doctrine? (2) if God the Father had a father and that father had a father how then is it logical to say God created everything, if it is considered an official Mormon doctrine? (3) If God created everything then logically he existed before everything which would make Him eternal. How then could Smith refute that He is eternal?

It is not my intention to appear aggressive. I am trying to understand and reason your theology. To do so I have to ask questions like the above.
joneszj
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1/20/2012 11:34:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 9:35:12 AM, tyler90az wrote:
How convenient you skip a bunch of questions.

We are not saying there is any God greater then God the father, nor will there ever be.

Where in the OP or thereafter did i question if there were any god greater then God? I never asked/questioned that.

Is it hard to believe God walked the earth like a man?

God walking the earth as a man is not what is hard to believe and I did not question that either.

Do you not believe in the trinity, in which Jesus is also God the Father?

Saying that the Trinity teaches that Jesus is also God the Father is false. That is more like Modalism then it is Trinitarian. Trinitarian doctrine teaches that the Father and the Son are same in 'substance' but not in person.

Then you also believe that God walked the earth like a man. What is the difference between our doctrines? They are one in the same, just different words.

Difference in out doctrines? Well the Father never walked the earth. He was never a man. He is spirit of flesh and blood. He is eternal. God is a Trinity. There are many differences with our doctrine but that is not the topic of the OP and I respectfully ask that if you want to discuss these other topics please make a new thread.

We believe God the father walked the earth as a man.

Ok, that is not what I am trying to reason.
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 11:49:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, thus far, you have answered my initial question by saying "God created everything". Unanswered are: (1) is the teaching that God the father had a father that had a father etc. an official Mormon doctrine? (2) if God the Father had a father and that father had a father how then is it logical to say God created everything, if it is considered an official Mormon doctrine? (3) If God created everything then logically he existed before everything which would make Him eternal. How then could Smith refute that He is eternal?

I posted these previously:

I have answered your question, yet you remain in attack mode. Why harp on the same thing when I have already given you an answer? No, we do not believe in an existence prior to God. What some in the church believe is that God created the earth, then walked on it as a man. Is that not what Jesus did? For you to keep harping on the same thing over and over, when I have given you an answer, shows weak debate skills. If you have evidence we do believe that, then provide the evidence.

We don't believe that, see previous post....

That is exactly what I am saying.... God created everything... Some in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also believed he walked the earth,(Jesus created, he instructed) like a man. I am one of those who do believe that.

Well I apologize if I confused you. No, we don't believe God was created.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 11:58:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 11:49:39 AM, tyler90az wrote:
So, thus far, you have answered my initial question by saying "God created everything". Unanswered are: (1) is the teaching that God the father had a father that had a father etc. an official Mormon doctrine? (2) if God the Father had a father and that father had a father how then is it logical to say God created everything, if it is considered an official Mormon doctrine? (3) If God created everything then logically he existed before everything which would make Him eternal. How then could Smith refute that He is eternal?


I posted these previously:

I have answered your question, yet you remain in attack mode. Why harp on the same thing when I have already given you an answer? No, we do not believe in an existence prior to God. What some in the church believe is that God created the earth, then walked on it as a man. Is that not what Jesus did? For you to keep harping on the same thing over and over, when I have given you an answer, shows weak debate skills. If you have evidence we do believe that, then provide the evidence.

We don't believe that, see previous post....

That is exactly what I am saying.... God created everything... Some in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also believed he walked the earth,(Jesus created, he instructed) like a man. I am one of those who do believe that.

Well I apologize if I confused you. No, we don't believe God was created.


Ok, and I followed up with a few more questions examining the integrity of your statement. I guess I will have to make a new thread for these questions since I am not getting an answer here.
tyler90az
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1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

I have answered every single question. Can you answer mine?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
joneszj
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1/20/2012 12:21:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

I have answered every single question. Can you answer mine?

Where did you answer these questions:
(1) is the teaching that God the father had a father that had a father etc. an official Mormon doctrine?
(2) if God the Father had a father and that father had a father how then is it logical to say God created everything, if it is considered an official Mormon doctrine?
(3) If God created everything then logically he existed before everything which would make Him eternal. How then could Smith refute that He is eternal?
Saying that God walked the earth as a man does not refute that God is eternal. To refute that God is eternal one must determine that Gods existence is derived from creation. To say that the existence of God is derived from creation logically means he could not have created everything. (In other words) In order for God to not be eternal His existence necessarily must be contingent on something else. Stating that he walked on earth does not demonstrate that Gods existence is not eternal, or contingent on something other then God.

So logically the questions still remains: If God is not eternal meaning that His existence is dependent on something other then Himself, then in order for God to exist something other then God must exist also. How is it logically consistent to say that God created all things yet something also existed before God because He is not eternal?
JaxsonRaine
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1/20/2012 12:31:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

"In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible."

I didn't think JS referred to the Father being a man on this earth, but another earth. In other words, He went through the same process on another planet, perhaps in another universe which was created by another Creator.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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1/20/2012 12:42:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:31:30 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

"In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible."

I didn't think JS referred to the Father being a man on this earth, but another earth. In other words, He went through the same process on another planet, perhaps in another universe which was created by another Creator.

Nice JaxsonRaine. But Tyler who is a Mormon said that God created everything (period without exclusion and nothing of a multi-verse). Tyler mentioned that he believes that the Father instructed Jesus to create everything and then the Father lived as a man on a planet. But would not this mean that God was God then a man then God again? It also does not refute God being eternal.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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1/20/2012 12:51:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Where did you answer these questions:
(1) is the teaching that God the father had a father that had a father etc. an official Mormon doctrine?
(2) if God the Father had a father and that father had a father how then is it logical to say God created everything, if it is considered an official Mormon doctrine?
(3) If God created everything then logically he existed before everything which would make Him eternal. How then could Smith refute that He is eternal?
Saying that God walked the earth as a man does not refute that God is eternal. To refute that God is eternal one must determine that Gods existence is derived from creation. To say that the existence of God is derived from creation logically means he could not have created everything. (In other words) In order for God to not be eternal His existence necessarily must be contingent on something else. Stating that he walked on earth does not demonstrate that Gods existence is not eternal, or contingent on something other then God.

I answered those questions by saying no The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe that. What more do you want?

So logically the questions still remains: If God is not eternal meaning that His existence is dependent on something other then Himself, then in order for God to exist something other then God must exist also. How is it logically consistent to say that God created all things yet something also existed before God because He is not eternal?

Once again, I am not saying anything existed before God. God is not eternal in the since he walked on another planet(that is correct) as a man. He walked on another planet, I would assume similar to earth. God was not in "eternity" forever, he did what Jesus did. Therefore, he was not eternal.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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1/20/2012 12:53:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:31:30 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

"In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible."

I didn't think JS referred to the Father being a man on this earth, but another earth. In other words, He went through the same process on another planet, perhaps in another universe which was created by another Creator.

It is definitely open to speculation. However, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no official stance, it is not doctrine.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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1/20/2012 12:57:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/20/2012 12:42:10 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:31:30 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 1/20/2012 12:05:14 PM, tyler90az wrote:
Are you alright man? You are asking questions over and over again. It is getting rather redundant...

if God existed before anything was made that would mean that He is eternal right? Then Why would Smith go on to say that we have imagined God was god from all eternity and refutes that idea?

Smith said that because he walked the earth as a man. Similar to how Jesus walked the earth...

"In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible."

I didn't think JS referred to the Father being a man on this earth, but another earth. In other words, He went through the same process on another planet, perhaps in another universe which was created by another Creator.

Nice JaxsonRaine. But Tyler who is a Mormon said that God created everything (period without exclusion and nothing of a multi-verse). Tyler mentioned that he believes that the Father instructed Jesus to create everything and then the Father lived as a man on a planet. But would not this mean that God was God then a man then God again? It also does not refute God being eternal.

I don't know what caused Tyler to say that, as I haven't ever seen any LDS writings saying that the Father lived as a man after creation. Nothing against Tyler, but just because someone of a faith says something doesn't mean that it's the official doctrine of that faith. I once met a Mormon man who converted the girl that became his wife, and he taught her that LDS teach it's ok for men to beat their wives.

That being said, as far as I understand it, the Father was a man before everything that we are told about in scripture. Before the creation entirely.

I already explained my belief to you. In our universe, space and time was created with the Big Bang(yes this is all just theory, but heavily supported theory and the best explanation science currently has). If God created the universe through the big bang, then he literally has existed as God during every second of this universe's entire existence. What came before that? I don't think it's necessarily critical to how we live our lives, but I enjoy speculation.

So, imagine there is an infinitely large area of nothingness, kind of like space. Anywhere in this nothingness, you can place an energy-singularity and let it explode, creating a universe. So each universe would have specific creator, or a specific God. For any inhabitants living inside that space-time reference, that God would be eternal, having existed for all time(but time isn't universal, it is relative).
twocupcakes: 15 = 13