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Problems With Religion

vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/22/2012 9:21:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 7:01:11 AM, Danielle wrote:
"When people ask me why I have a problem with religion, it's hard to come up with a single answer..."

http://i.imgur.com...

That's wonderful. Did you make it? Mind if I put it in an album?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 9:50:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is REALLY good. You could easily add more on to it, however. Try expanding it outside of the Abrahamic faiths. I would include violence by Hindus in India, for example.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 10:40:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.

Atheism has done no wrongs because nobody has killed in the name of Atheism. You are going to discuss Stalin, Mao, etc., but they did not kill in the name of Atheism. Instead, they murdered in the name of their pseudo-Communist ideology.
baggins
Posts: 855
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1/22/2012 10:48:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 7:01:11 AM, Danielle wrote:
"When people ask me why I have a problem with religion, it's hard to come up with a single answer..."

http://i.imgur.com...

Looks like lots of hard-work. If only you had spent the time in actually learning about religions...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 10:51:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 10:40:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.

Atheism has done no wrongs because nobody has killed in the name of Atheism. You are going to discuss Stalin, Mao, etc., but they did not kill in the name of Atheism. Instead, they murdered in the name of their pseudo-Communist ideology.

And the accussation against the religious is ignorance and blind dogma?

By denying to appropriately lay blame you only do a diservice to your worldview to those who are not incompetent. Keep up the good work.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 10:56:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 10:51:28 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:40:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.

Atheism has done no wrongs because nobody has killed in the name of Atheism. You are going to discuss Stalin, Mao, etc., but they did not kill in the name of Atheism. Instead, they murdered in the name of their pseudo-Communist ideology.

And the accussation against the religious is ignorance and blind dogma?

By denying to appropriately lay blame you only do a diservice to your worldview to those who are not incompetent. Keep up the good work.

This post is awkward and gramatically incorrect. You are just bitter because I defanged your examples.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/22/2012 11:03:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Nothing is perfect, but religion is much better than the alternative.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 11:04:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:03:09 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Nothing is perfect, but religion is much better than the alternative.

lol, do you have any evidence? Why is it better? Because it promotes social control and murder?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 11:10:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 10:56:27 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:51:28 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:40:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.

Atheism has done no wrongs because nobody has killed in the name of Atheism. You are going to discuss Stalin, Mao, etc., but they did not kill in the name of Atheism. Instead, they murdered in the name of their pseudo-Communist ideology.

And the accussation against the religious is ignorance and blind dogma?

By denying to appropriately lay blame you only do a diservice to your worldview to those who are not incompetent. Keep up the good work.

This post is awkward and gramatically incorrect. You are just bitter because I defanged your examples.

Lol, if you defanged anything it was only your own viewpoint. I would not equate the 'obvious' historical process to a venemous reaction. An allergic reaction to people like you maybe, but a soothing balm to those who are stable.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/22/2012 11:18:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is the problem religion?

I personally think it has more to with being a schmuck who doesn't truly examine the fortresses that have built up in their mind.

It is a type of arrogant pride that stifles growth, all under the guise of humility.

Religion isn't at the source of this, but it is a clear manifestation. Truly though, the world is fed by the sheep who willingly follow the shepherd into the slaughter.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/22/2012 11:24:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Whoa, thats awsome. Do you mind if I use that as a reference sometimes?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 11:28:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:24:51 AM, 000ike wrote:
Whoa, thats awsome. Do you mind if I use that as a reference sometimes?

Why am I not surprised another atheists ignores reality and loves this misleading vividness fallacy?

I sometime wonder if there is hope.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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1/22/2012 11:53:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:28:39 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:24:51 AM, 000ike wrote:
Whoa, thats awsome. Do you mind if I use that as a reference sometimes?

Why am I not surprised another atheists ignores reality and loves this misleading vividness fallacy?

I sometime wonder if there is hope.

I've given you a fair chance to prove you make sense. I listened to your argument about dimensions and I've read a lot of your forum posts. I'm sorry but they all come across to me as extremely illogical. You seem to invent explanations where the answer is not obvious (ie. 4th dimension?), and then ignore or skate over arguments for why God allows evil or even allows a Hell. I've never even heard you make an argument for why Heaven is good (who wants to be conscious for eternity? I don't know about you, but when I die I want to cease to exist. Being self-aware, conscious, and sentient is an inherent burden).

Christianity does not make sense, and I think most Christians are weak and only believe in it because thats what they grew up with and were scared into sticking with it. Christianity is not freedom, it locks the world in dark box that never ends and dims the light of inquisition. It is not for me, and not for many other people out there that seek to learn and make sense of the world in a trustable, provable and concrete way.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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1/22/2012 11:54:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:04:08 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:03:09 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Nothing is perfect, but religion is much better than the alternative.

lol, do you have any evidence? Why is it better? Because it promotes social control and murder?

Militant atheism like that seen in the socialist/communist ideology has proved to be much more fatal. The picture that Danielle linked to shows us a few isolated incidents of a few people murdered. Boohoo. Militant atheism has killed tens of millions of people.
Religion is simply the imposition of social darwinism on those who it does not favour. Nothing wrong with that.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/22/2012 11:58:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Gilly, your kneejerk reaction to state that the atheist worldview has done more harm doesn't really give you much room to criticize. You aren't being much better than those who use religion as a scapegoat.

The problem isn't religion or a lack there of. It is a combination of human nature and the grid one places over reality to make judgement over what is good and bad.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/22/2012 12:39:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 10:39:13 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Clearly the accuasation made against atheists using Misleading Vividness Fallacy to ad nauseum is 'false'. That was sarcastic btw.


There is superabundance of evidence to demonstrate that religion is a tremendous source of unnecessary suffering in the world. Despite the length of the collage, it still shows only a glimpse of religion's evil.

An atheistic worldview has done more harm to the world than all religions combined.


There is no such thing as an atheistic worldview. Ayn Rand and Karl Marx were both atheists. Did they share a worldview? Atheism makes no claims about the world; it only rejects theistic claims.

A person who is scholstically appropriate in their assessment of history would be critical only where criticism is deserved. To religious and non religious worldviews alike.

If the collage included images of communist and fascist atrocities, its title wouldn't have to change. Communism and fascism were political religions which required people to subordinate their individual consciousnesses to authoritarian interest. As in religion, certain thoughts were criminalize (thoughtcrime) and barbarism was fostered to ensure the success of the ideology/religion.


It never fails to astound the level of misplaced zeal of the militant atheist.
Unwilling to criticize their own worldview when its due, but willing to criticize everyone but themselves.

I guess I'm a militant atheist since the only thing you have to do to be one is to speak openly about your views. The requirements for being a militant Christian or a militant Islamist are quite different.

So, as a militant atheist, I would say: we have no single worldview to criticize. The rejection of absurd bronze age dogmatism frees you up to develop a more coherent worldview. Since everyone is unique, it can't be said that we all share a single worldview. We simply think that some ideas are more ridiculous than others.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/22/2012 12:45:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:53:33 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:28:39 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:24:51 AM, 000ike wrote:
Whoa, thats awsome. Do you mind if I use that as a reference sometimes?

Why am I not surprised another atheists ignores reality and loves this misleading vividness fallacy?

I sometime wonder if there is hope.

I've given you a fair chance to prove you make sense. I listened to your argument about dimensions and I've read a lot of your forum posts. I'm sorry but they all come across to me as extremely illogical. You seem to invent explanations where the answer is not obvious (ie. 4th dimension?), and then ignore or skate over arguments for why God allows evil or even allows a Hell. I've never even heard you make an argument for why Heaven is good (who wants to be conscious for eternity? I don't know about you, but when I die I want to cease to exist. Being self-aware, conscious, and sentient is an inherent burden).

Christianity does not make sense, and I think most Christians are weak and only believe in it because thats what they grew up with and were scared into sticking with it. Christianity is not freedom, it locks the world in dark box that never ends and dims the light of inquisition.

Actually, the Inquisition was the only time Christianity brought any light into the world - specifically by burning people alive.

It is not for me, and not for many other people out there that seek to learn and make sense of the world in a trustable, provable and concrete way.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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1/22/2012 12:46:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:54:17 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:04:08 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:03:09 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Nothing is perfect, but religion is much better than the alternative.

lol, do you have any evidence? Why is it better? Because it promotes social control and murder?

Militant atheism like that seen in the socialist/communist ideology has proved to be much more fatal. The picture that Danielle linked to shows us a few isolated incidents of a few people murdered. Boohoo. Militant atheism has killed tens of millions of people.
Religion is simply the imposition of social darwinism on those who it does not favour. Nothing wrong with that.

I'd like to say that it's quite a false dichotomy to put religion and MILITANT atheism together as alternatives, unless if you want to extend the list of alternatives for religion....
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
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1/22/2012 12:57:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Gileandos, please refrain from haunting and attacking the atheist/evolutionist/&ct positions as a hobby or some sort of recreational activity from now on...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
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1/22/2012 1:05:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:18:57 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Is the problem religion?

I personally think it has more to with being a schmuck who doesn't truly examine the fortresses that have built up in their mind.

It is a type of arrogant pride that stifles growth, all under the guise of humility.

Religion isn't at the source of this, but it is a clear manifestation. Truly though, the world is fed by the sheep who willingly follow the shepherd into the slaughter.

This.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 1:06:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:53:33 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:28:39 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 11:24:51 AM, 000ike wrote:
Whoa, thats awsome. Do you mind if I use that as a reference sometimes?

Why am I not surprised another atheists ignores reality and loves this misleading vividness fallacy?

I sometime wonder if there is hope.

I've given you a fair chance to prove you make sense. I listened to your argument about dimensions and I've read a lot of your forum posts. I'm sorry but they all come across to me as extremely illogical. You seem to invent explanations where the answer is not obvious (ie. 4th dimension?), and then ignore or skate over arguments for why God allows evil or even allows a Hell. I've never even heard you make an argument for why Heaven is good (who wants to be conscious for eternity? I don't know about you, but when I die I want to cease to exist. Being self-aware, conscious, and sentient is an inherent burden).

Christianity does not make sense, and I think most Christians are weak and only believe in it because thats what they grew up with and were scared into sticking with it. Christianity is not freedom, it locks the world in dark box that never ends and dims the light of inquisition. It is not for me, and not for many other people out there that seek to learn and make sense of the world in a trustable, provable and concrete way.

I understand your expressed viewpoint above and do not invalidate your above concerns. Such concerns do need answers.

I am strictly speaking to the OP and a belief that would validate viewing religion through anti-theistic rose colored glass to the neglect of the legitimacy of reality.

The OP is a misleading vividness fallacy compounded with a limited deductive fallacy. All of those things were attributed to religion though not all of them should have been, compounded by the fact that atheism has done more harm bar any viewpoint in history combined.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 1:07:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 11:58:02 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Gilly, your kneejerk reaction to state that the atheist worldview has done more harm doesn't really give you much room to criticize. You aren't being much better than those who use religion as a scapegoat.

The problem isn't religion or a lack there of. It is a combination of human nature and the grid one places over reality to make judgement over what is good and bad.

Pointing to reality of a combined harm historically is no vice. I am equally critical of the harm religions have done.
Gileandos
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1/22/2012 1:14:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 12:57:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Gileandos, please refrain from haunting and attacking the atheist/evolutionist/&ct positions as a hobby or some sort of recreational activity from now on...

Ah yes, the atheistic standby of silencing your opponents when you cannot defeat them.
You compound the issue by threatening me privately and publicly.

To suggest that her errant viewpoint or "sales" pitch should go unanswered is an obvious concern you seem to possess.
Perhaps you should create a childish "atheist only club" and not bring your viewpoint out to the market place of ideas.

However, given that we are on a debate website AND even more specifically on a religious forum within that debate site (not an atheist forum) to expect to silence someone in such a form is the 'high point' of idiocy.
Man-is-good
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1/22/2012 1:16:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 1:14:21 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 12:57:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Gileandos, please refrain from haunting and attacking the atheist/evolutionist/&ct positions as a hobby or some sort of recreational activity from now on...

Ah yes, the atheistic standby of silencing your opponents when you cannot defeat them.
You compound the issue by threatening me privately and publicly.

To suggest that her errant viewpoint or "sales" pitch should go unanswered is an obvious concern you seem to possess.
Perhaps you should create a childish "atheist only club" and not bring your viewpoint out to the market place of ideas.

However, given that we are on a debate website AND even more specifically on a religious forum within that debate site (not an atheist forum) to expect to silence someone in such a form is the 'high point' of idiocy.

Note that I did not ask to silence you, I asked you from using it as some sort of hobby.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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1/22/2012 1:31:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 1:16:08 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 1/22/2012 1:14:21 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 1/22/2012 12:57:18 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Gileandos, please refrain from haunting and attacking the atheist/evolutionist/&ct positions as a hobby or some sort of recreational activity from now on...

Ah yes, the atheistic standby of silencing your opponents when you cannot defeat them.
You compound the issue by threatening me privately and publicly.

To suggest that her errant viewpoint or "sales" pitch should go unanswered is an obvious concern you seem to possess.
Perhaps you should create a childish "atheist only club" and not bring your viewpoint out to the market place of ideas.

However, given that we are on a debate website AND even more specifically on a religious forum within that debate site (not an atheist forum) to expect to silence someone in such a form is the 'high point' of idiocy.

Note that I did not ask to silence you, I asked you from using it as some sort of hobby.

Well, that makes it all better.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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1/22/2012 4:08:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Gil,

People don't really try and silence you as such, they just wished that you would refrain from the predictable drive-by attack on atheism. In fact, in your own forum, both me and Rogue offered to debate you on the basis of your post, so it's a bit annoying that again you refuse to engage, and then play the victim card for being called on it. If you really want to defend your statement that atheism has done more harm than any other ideology, or on evidence for God, I'd be willing to debate either.
Ramshutu
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1/22/2012 4:23:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 4:08:31 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Gil,

People don't really try and silence you as such, they just wished that you would refrain from the predictable drive-by attack on atheism. In fact, in your own forum, both me and Rogue offered to debate you on the basis of your post, so it's a bit annoying that again you refuse to engage, and then play the victim card for being called on it. If you really want to defend your statement that atheism has done more harm than any other ideology, or on evidence for God, I'd be willing to debate either.

Gil does have a valid point, the USSR did carry out a lot of
Persecution of the religious in order to promote the athiest agenda.

However, what to can say, is a lot of the crap throughout history had been carried out 'in the name of religion'. While not very nice, in terms of religious persecution, the USSR did not pursue policies of forced starvation, political prisoners, wars, etc in 'the name of Atheism' nor did Nazi Germany kill the Jews in 'the name of Atheism.'

This is a very important distinction to make, and while Atheism, is not without blood on its hands in terms of the USSR, you cannot pin much more on it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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1/22/2012 4:23:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/22/2012 4:08:31 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Gil,

People don't really try and silence you as such, they just wished that you would refrain from the predictable drive-by attack on atheism. In fact, in your own forum, both me and Rogue offered to debate you on the basis of your post, so it's a bit annoying that again you refuse to engage, and then play the victim card for being called on it. If you really want to defend your statement that atheism has done more harm than any other ideology, or on evidence for God, I'd be willing to debate either.

I will debate Gileandos on atheism doing more harm than religious ideologies.