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Idols & Graven images in the catholic cult!

Composer
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1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (My bolds) -

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!
johnnyboy54
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1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM, Composer wrote:
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (My bolds) -

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

There is a lot of fail here. First of all, the Bible forbids the worship of statues, images ect., not the existence of them. Read the New American Standard Edition. That is the interpretation we use. Trying to use the King James Version or another interpretation in an effort to persuade my my beliefs are contradictory to the Bible will be met with a facepalm and a shot of whiskey.

Idolatry is not making an image of a sacred person, event ect. It is when they worship the images associated with the person. Idolatry would be worshiping the image as it is God, and that is a sin. So while we may have Crucifixes in the church, we do not worship them. It is as simple as that.

Please be less offensive when you comment or start a thread. You do not come across as someone willing to intelligently debate theology. You come across as an ignorant jack@$$ who simply goes on sites like these to be a troll.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM, Composer wrote:
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female,(Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

So the Lord and Moses are both cursed? Did God sin against His own commandment? Or do you have a very weak understanding of Scripture?

Or do you just cherry pick and leave out parts of scripture to deceive? the rest of Deut. 27:15
"Cursed is anyone who makes an idol—a thing detestable to the LORD, the work of skilled hands—and sets it up in secret."
Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

I will be willing to assume innocence and acknowledge you probably go this from and Anti-Catholic source and in your gullibility you accepted it, probably because you want to.

And again with with Deut 4:16, here is what you left out. When you leave something out it only shows your weakness.

15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Oh yeah, when you bold everything you write it only let's everyone you know you are simply making up for what your post lack, truth.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Composer
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1/28/2012 2:12:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
There is a lot of fail here. First of all, the Bible forbids the worship of statues, images ect., not the existence of them.
Incorrect!

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God. {standing...: or, pillar} {image of...: or, figured stone: Heb. a stone of picture}
(Lev. 26:1) KJV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.<em> (Lev. 26:1) ASV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote: Read the New American Standard Edition. That is the interpretation we use. Trying to use the King James Version or another interpretation in an effort to persuade my my beliefs are contradictory to the Bible will be met with a facepalm and a shot of whiskey.
You are obviously intoxicated and hence your alchoholic stupor that has total disgard even for the very Story books you used as your supposed evidence?

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idolatry is not making an image of a sacred person, event ect.
Never claimed it was, It is however the making or depiction as forbidden also by your own KJV & ASV references!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
It is when they worship the images associated with the person. Idolatry would be worshiping the image as it is God, and that is a sin.
Incorrect again!

It is a sin to even make them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV


At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
So while we may have Crucifixes in the church, we do not worship them. It is as simple as that.
You shouldn't have them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV (Your preferred Story book versions)

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Please be less offensive when you comment or start a thread. You do not come across as someone willing to intelligently debate theology. You come across as an ignorant jack@$$ who simply goes on sites like these to be a troll.
Incorrect yet again!

Your typical Ad Hominem attacks manifest your early desperation in lieu of a shred of credibility!

Much better luck next times!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/28/2012 2:32:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

So the Lord and Moses are both cursed? Did God sin against His own commandment? Or do you have a very weak understanding of Scripture?
Just what I wanted, thanks, your Story book you proved is 100% man-made and self contradicting!

Your reference to another mythical character outside of Story book land (Moses) also denounces your absolute desperation for credibility of which you have zero!

You beuty! Keep up my good work!


At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
Oh yeah, when you bold everything you write it only let's everyone you know you are simply making up for what your post lack, truth.
More of your BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

Next!
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 2:45:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
More of your BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

Next!


Exactly. It's there for emphasis, not for you to highlight slabs of writing in an effort to boost your pretentious ego. The purpose of emphasis in typography is to differentiate between tones present in a single piece of text, this means single words or phrases.

(Note the proper use of emphasis)
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/28/2012 2:53:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:12:29 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
There is a lot of fail here. First of all, the Bible forbids the worship of statues, images ect., not the existence of them.
Incorrect!

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God. {standing...: or, pillar} {image of...: or, figured stone: Heb. a stone of picture}
(Lev. 26:1) KJV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.<em> (Lev. 26:1) ASV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote: Read the New American Standard Edition. That is the interpretation we use. Trying to use the King James Version or another interpretation in an effort to persuade my my beliefs are contradictory to the Bible will be met with a facepalm and a shot of whiskey.
You are obviously intoxicated and hence your alchoholic stupor that has total disgard even for the very Story books you used as your supposed evidence?

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idolatry is not making an image of a sacred person, event ect.
Never claimed it was, It is however the making or depiction as forbidden also by your own KJV & ASV references!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
It is when they worship the images associated with the person. Idolatry would be worshiping the image as it is God, and that is a sin.
Incorrect again!

It is a sin to even make them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV


At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
So while we may have Crucifixes in the church, we do not worship them. It is as simple as that.
You shouldn't have them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV (Your preferred Story book versions)

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Please be less offensive when you comment or start a thread. You do not come across as someone willing to intelligently debate theology. You come across as an ignorant jack@$$ who simply goes on sites like these to be a troll.
Incorrect yet again!

Your typical Ad Hominem attacks manifest your early desperation in lieu of a shred of credibility!

Much better luck next times!


Whoops I gave you the wrong interpretation. Roman Catholics use The New American Bible. I compare different interpretations them all the time so I got them mixed up. However you used the American Standard Bible. I never said to use that one.

Here is Leviticus 26:1 from my personal Bible:

Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land, for I, the Lord, am your God.

Admittedly by Bible is a little older. The translation I got from the Vatican website was:

"Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the LORD, am your God."

Both of these verses obviously state that it is the worship of physical images as God that makes this a sin. So no simply owning a Crucifix is not idolatry. You are simply wrong.

Please note I was not trying to attack you. I was simply saying that the way to portray yourself to members of this site comes across and rude and arrogant. When you do this people will simply dismiss what you have to say.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/28/2012 2:54:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:45:38 AM, Physik wrote:
More of your BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

Next!


Exactly. It's there for emphasis, not for you to highlight slabs of writing in an effort to boost your pretentious ego. The purpose of emphasis in typography is to differentiate between tones present in a single piece of text, this means single words or phrases.

(Note the proper use of emphasis)
This is NOT a discussion site regarding the use of emphasis, Italics nor Underline!

IF you think it is then please see a doctor asap!

I accept your AdHominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your now defeated cause!

Much better luck next times and should you wish to discuss the use of Grammar, emphasis etc. then go there and do so at the appropriate Internet Forums!
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 3:03:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:54:17 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 2:45:38 AM, Physik wrote:
More of your BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

Next!


Exactly. It's there for emphasis, not for you to highlight slabs of writing in an effort to boost your pretentious ego. The purpose of emphasis in typography is to differentiate between tones present in a single piece of text, this means single words or phrases.

(Note the proper use of emphasis)
This is NOT a discussion site regarding the use of emphasis, Italics nor Underline!

IF you think it is then please see a doctor asap!

I accept your AdHominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your now defeated cause!

Much better luck next times and should you wish to discuss the use of Grammar, emphasis etc. then go there and do so at the appropriate Internet Forums!


I am perfectly aware that the use of emphasis shouldn't be the topic at hand; but your repeated misuse of the function is interfering with the ease at which people can read your posts. As such, I am merely correcting your apparent lack of understanding to the complexities of the English language and the manner in which it is conventionally conveyed.

Also, in response to this:

I accept your AdHominem attacks in lieu of a shred of credibility for your now defeated cause!

You seem to be associating me with groups and positions in very peculiar way. Previously, you stated that you had destroyed my cult; now, you say my cause is defeated.

What cult? What cause?
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/28/2012 3:15:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:53:19 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 2:12:29 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
There is a lot of fail here. First of all, the Bible forbids the worship of statues, images ect., not the existence of them.
Incorrect!

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God. {standing...: or, pillar} {image of...: or, figured stone: Heb. a stone of picture}
(Lev. 26:1) KJV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am Jehovah your God.<em> (Lev. 26:1) ASV Story book

NB: Ye shall make NO idols or graven images etc!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote: Read the New American Standard Edition. That is the interpretation we use. Trying to use the King James Version or another interpretation in an effort to persuade my my beliefs are contradictory to the Bible will be met with a facepalm and a shot of whiskey.
You are obviously intoxicated and hence your alchoholic stupor that has total disgard even for the very Story books you used as your supposed evidence?

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idolatry is not making an image of a sacred person, event ect.
Never claimed it was, It is however the making or depiction as forbidden also by your own KJV & ASV references!

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
It is when they worship the images associated with the person. Idolatry would be worshiping the image as it is God, and that is a sin.
Incorrect again!

It is a sin to even make them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV


At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
So while we may have Crucifixes in the church, we do not worship them. It is as simple as that.
You shouldn't have them according to e.g. Lev. 26:1 KJV & ASV (Your preferred Story book versions)

At 1/28/2012 1:50:41 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Please be less offensive when you comment or start a thread. You do not come across as someone willing to intelligently debate theology. You come across as an ignorant jack@$$ who simply goes on sites like these to be a troll.
Incorrect yet again!

Your typical Ad Hominem attacks manifest your early desperation in lieu of a shred of credibility!

Much better luck next times!


Whoops I gave you the wrong interpretation. Roman Catholics use The New American Bible. I compare different interpretations them all the time so I got them mixed up. However you used the American Standard Bible. I never said to use that one.

Here is Leviticus 26:1 from my personal Bible:

Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land, for I, the Lord, am your God.

Admittedly by Bible is a little older. The translation I got from the Vatican website was:

"Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the LORD, am your God."

Both of these verses obviously state that it is the worship of physical images as God that makes this a sin. So no simply owning a Crucifix is not idolatry. You are simply wrong.

Please note I was not trying to attack you. I was simply saying that the way to portray yourself to members of this site comes across and rude and arrogant. When you do this people will simply dismiss what you have to say.
Even those other quotes you gave concur with mine!

In essence as you quoted -

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves


You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

As I already correctly stated, of course you don't actually worship those statues & graven images, but 1. You are NOT allowed to have made them at all! 2. You do defiantly use them as a means of alleged contact?

3. The crucifix is another ' graven image ' which you are NOT allowed to have regardless of any function you have disobediently chosen to make it and then use it!

4. As I previously correctly stated and fatal to catholicism using their very own catholic RSVersion -

You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary & the alleged Story book apostles catholicism have themselves dishonestly raised to sainthood, for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

[continued]
Composer
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1/28/2012 3:18:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:53:19 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
In essence as you quoted -

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

As I already correctly stated, of course you don't actually worship those statues & graven images, but 1. You are NOT allowed to have made them at all! 2. You do defiantly use them as a means of alleged contact?

3. The crucifix is another ' graven image ' which you are NOT allowed to have regardless of any function you have disobediently chosen to make it and then use it!

4. As I previously correctly stated and fatal to catholicism using their very own catholic RSVersion -

You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary & the alleged Story book apostles catholicism have themselves dishonestly raised to sainthood, for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

[continued]
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1/28/2012 3:26:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I got an Unexpected error message stating my post was not unique?

Perhaps It was sent twice but that wasn't my intention?

Continuing on however after that unintentional glitch -

worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-) 1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites. 2 idolize or regard with adoration. 3 attend public worship. 4 be full of adoration. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

You are trying to now tell us that catholics do not have and are not full of immense ' adoration ' for Mary and the catholic saints and all the statues and paintings and idols and crap they sell in the catholic shops are there because you do not adore them? LOL!

The very fact that Deut. 5:8 - 9 catholic edition RSV Story book categorically states - catholic god says DON'T MAKE THEM and DON'T BOW / incline the head before them, is obviously a difficulty for catholics to comprehend. DON'T to them interprets as ' DO?'

catholics bow in front of their pagan idols, fact! and I have seen it myself many a time and not only that, they make a pagan sign of the cross on their chests i.e. making a carved image by their hand gestures creating an 'image' of a cross on their chests. 2 pagan idols.

bow2 —v. 1 incline the head or body, esp. in greeting or acknowledgement. 2 submit (bowed to the inevitable). 3 cause (the head etc.) to incline. —n. act of bowing.  bow and scrape toady. bow down 1 bend or kneel esp. in submission or reverence. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

#3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

So pictures, paintings, statues and memorabilia including those sold in the catholic retail shops of Mary and the catholic alleged saints are also other direct violations per Deut. 4:16 (above)

&

Let's Admit It Already! We Catholics PRAY TO MARY!

by Michaela (no login)

Let's stop beating around the bush and admit it already! We, as Catholics, worship Mary! We pray to her, we bow before her statues, we place her in every position that Jesus holds. We rely on her for our salvation. We gave her many titles and even place crowns on the heads of her statues. Just watch the crowds in Fatima as they bow, pray and wave before the her statues being carried through the streets! I have done it as well as every Catholic that i have come into contact with at the many Marian shrines i go to around the world. Why do we, as Catholics, continue to lie about this? Just admit it already! Posted on Apr 13, 2006, 10:23 PM - (Composer's Source: http://www.network54.com...)

&

The idols of the heathen [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. (Psalm 135:15) KJV Story book

The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. (Psalm 135:15) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, . . . (Acts 15:20) KJV Story book

but should write to them to abstain from the pollution of idols . . . . (Acts 15:20) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 John 5:21) KJV Story book

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

Strong's Concordance renders: 'idol' -
BDB/Thayers # 1497
1497 eidolon {i'-do-lon}
from 1491; an image (i.e. for worship); TDNT - 2:375,202; n n
AV - idol 11; 11
1) an image, likeness
1a) i.e. whatever represents the form of an object, either real or imaginary (Composer adds: e.g. making the cross sign on their chests (My emphasis))
1b) used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.
2) the image of an heathen god
3) a false god

The catholics are particularly guilty on ALL counts!

QED
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:18:07 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 2:53:19 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
In essence as you quoted -

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

You shall not erect an idol or sacred pillar for yourselves

As I already correctly stated, of course you don't actually worship those statues & graven images, but 1. You are NOT allowed to have made them at all! 2. You do defiantly use them as a means of alleged contact?

3. The crucifix is another ' graven image ' which you are NOT allowed to have regardless of any function you have disobediently chosen to make it and then use it!

4. As I previously correctly stated and fatal to catholicism using their very own catholic RSVersion -

You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary & the alleged Story book apostles catholicism have themselves dishonestly raised to sainthood, for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

[continued]

Idol-an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed

Having a crucifix is only idolatry if it is worshiped. Idols are worshiped in place of God. Graven images are only sinful if they are the object of worship, as it would constitute idolatry. But if I have a crucifix as a reminder of Christ's sacrifice, but I do not worship, then I have not violated the second commandment.

The sin of Idolatry came from binding God to the image a mere mortal, like a man or animal. That is why it is offensive. However it is not offensive to Jesus because he was an actual man.

Anyways, when the Bible condemns graven images, it always does so in the context that they are idols. That is objects of worship. Once again, you misinterpret and cherry-pick verses to, "prove," your case. However with context we know you are incorrect in your assertions.l
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
jharry
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1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 2:32:26 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

So the Lord and Moses are both cursed? Did God sin against His own commandment? Or do you have a very weak understanding of Scripture?
Just what I wanted, thanks, your Story book you proved is 100% man-made and self contradicting!

Your reference to another mythical character outside of Story book land (Moses) also denounces your absolute desperation for credibility of which you have zero!

You beuty! Keep up my good work!


no you have only shown your lacking ability to back up anything you say. You only make statements and then change the subject when cornered. You try to use Scripture against someone but when your bluff is called you try to use it against something else, and then you to disgrace yourself by not replying to anything some one says.

At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
Oh yeah, when you bold everything you write it only let's everyone you know you are simply making up for what your post lack, truth.
More of your BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

No, you use it to make your words more true then they are. You dodge everything anyone says to you with insults and back stepping. That's cool though, I have put a spotlight on you, you have been weighed and found lacking. Do you realize you embarrass most atheists that read your posts?

IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

I don;t care if you have to use them, I simply pointed out why you sue them. That was the case, try to keep up here.

Next!

Lol, I'm not done with you yet friend. If you back out now it will show your weakness.

None of these verses contradict each other. In one set of verses God commands us not to make AND worship these idols. When Moses made the Snake it was not intended to be worshiped. It was intended to to be looked at to remind Israel of who they were and who God is. The same as the statues today, not worshiped. Only meant for inspiration for the Church, just like the Snake.

Are you going to change the subject now? Or just more insults and declaring your victory? lol, you are fun. Please don't back down now. ;)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/28/2012 3:46:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:26:34 AM, Composer wrote:
I got an Unexpected error message stating my post was not unique?

Perhaps It was sent twice but that wasn't my intention?

Continuing on however after that unintentional glitch -

worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-) 1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites. 2 idolize or regard with adoration. 3 attend public worship. 4 be full of adoration. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

You are trying to now tell us that catholics do not have and are not full of immense ' adoration ' for Mary and the catholic saints and all the statues and paintings and idols and crap they sell in the catholic shops are there because you do not adore them? LOL!

Quit babbling and speak clearly. We do have adoration for them. However we do not hold them to be divine. They are not God and no reasonable Catholic would say that they were.

The very fact that Deut. 5:8 - 9 catholic edition RSV Story book categorically states - catholic god says DON'T MAKE THEM and DON'T BOW / incline the head before them, is obviously a difficulty for catholics to comprehend. DON'T to them interprets as ' DO?'

catholics bow in front of their pagan idols, fact! and I have seen it myself many a time and not only that, they make a pagan sign of the cross on their chests i.e. making a carved image by their hand gestures creating an 'image' of a cross on their chests. 2 pagan idols.

So positions to indicate prayer = idolatry. When we genuflect, we do so towards the Eucharist, which is Christ.

The sign of the Cross is not a form of worship. It is merely the admittance of Trinitarian doctrine. It is not worship or prayer.

bow2 —v. 1 incline the head or body, esp. in greeting or acknowledgement. 2 submit (bowed to the inevitable). 3 cause (the head etc.) to incline. —n. act of bowing.  bow and scrape toady. bow down 1 bend or kneel esp. in submission or reverence. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

#3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

So pictures, paintings, statues and memorabilia including those sold in the catholic retail shops of Mary and the catholic alleged saints are also other direct violations per Deut. 4:16 (above)

Once again, the context of the Bible states that images for the use of worship are prohibited. Not the images in and of themselves. My mom owns a statue of Mary for decoration and she likes the vibe it gives off. However we do not pray to it.

&

Let's Admit It Already! We Catholics PRAY TO MARY!

by Michaela (no login)

Let's stop beating around the bush and admit it already! We, as Catholics, worship Mary! We pray to her, we bow before her statues, we place her in every position that Jesus holds. We rely on her for our salvation. We gave her many titles and even place crowns on the heads of her statues. Just watch the crowds in Fatima as they bow, pray and wave before the her statues being carried through the streets! I have done it as well as every Catholic that i have come into contact with at the many Marian shrines i go to around the world. Why do we, as Catholics, continue to lie about this? Just admit it already! Posted on Apr 13, 2006, 10:23 PM - (Composer's Source: http://www.network54.com...)

Wow I do not care what that person has to say. All I know is that she confuses adoration for worship

&

The idols of the heathen [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. (Psalm 135:15) KJV Story book

King James, don't care.

The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. (Psalm 135:15) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

Once again, idol are defined as images that are used for worship. An image of a sacred event or person that is not worshiped is acceptable.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, . . . (Acts 15:20) KJV Story book

but should write to them to abstain from the pollution of idols . . . . (Acts 15:20) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 John 5:21) KJV Story book

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21) Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (Composer's Hard Copy)

Strong's Concordance renders: 'idol' -
BDB/Thayers # 1497
1497 eidolon {i'-do-lon}
from 1491; an image (i.e. for worship); TDNT - 2:375,202; n n
AV - idol 11; 11
1) an image, likeness
1a) i.e. whatever represents the form of an object, either real or imaginary (Composer adds: e.g. making the cross sign on their chests (My emphasis))
1b) used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.
2) the image of an heathen god
3) a false god

The catholics are particularly guilty on ALL counts!

QED

Composer, you cherry pick verses. However, when reading the Bible, we have to take it in its entirety. Once again, the Bible only condemns images statues ect when they are the object of worship. My crucifix is not an object of worship. A sign of the cross is not an act of worship. Nor is a genuflect. Hell people in the past genuflected to nobility and royalty. It is a simple admission of authority. Once again I have negated everything you have said and I hope you learn from it.

Now I need to go to bed. I have already taken down half we whiskey bottle...
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Composer
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1/28/2012 3:49:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idol-an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed
You gave no source?

Meanwhile - ANY idol is a graven image and ANY graven image is an Idol -

Strong's rebukes your Unsourced definition -
BDB/Thayers # 6459
06459 pecel {peh'-sel}
from 06458; TWOT - 1788a; n m
AV - graven image 28, carved image 2, graven 1; 31
1) idol, image

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Having a crucifix is only idolatry if it is worshiped.

My example of the admission of another catholic states that catholics DO worship their idols and a crucifix is still an idol = graven image!

Secondly Lev. 26:1 states you shouldn't even have any graven-images = idols!

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image . . . . (Lev. 26:1) KJV Story book

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idols are worshiped in place of God.
As my previous Posts detailed plus the admission of that catholic lady, catholics literally ' worship ' their statues etc.

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Anyways, when the Bible condemns graven images, it always does so in the context that they are idols. That is objects of worship. Once again, you misinterpret and cherry-pick verses to, "prove," your case. However with context we know you are incorrect in your assertions.
Your claims are incorrect as my Posts and evidence unambiguously prove!

Please report immediately to your catholic churches and smash your idols!
Wandile
Posts: 97
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1/28/2012 9:10:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:49:44 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idol-an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed
You gave no source?

Meanwhile - ANY idol is a graven image and ANY graven image is an Idol -

Strong's rebukes your Unsourced definition -
BDB/Thayers # 6459
06459 pecel {peh'-sel}
from 06458; TWOT - 1788a; n m
AV - graven image 28, carved image 2, graven 1; 31
1) idol, image

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Having a crucifix is only idolatry if it is worshiped.

My example of the admission of another catholic states that catholics DO worship their idols and a crucifix is still an idol = graven image!

Dude, your evidence is a testimony of a clearly misguided and misinformed 'catholic" girl? Is that the best evidence you have? She clearly does not know what Catholicism teaches if she thinks we practice idolatry.

My evidence is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The church firmly rebukes idolatry in all its forms :

"Idolatry is committed by worshipping idols and images of God, or believing that it possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying or reposing confidence in them. "
(CCC of Trent 1566)

"Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God' "
(CCC 2114)

Catholics are prohibited from worshipping anything as God other than God himself!

Secondly Lev. 26:1 states you shouldn't even have any graven-images = idols!

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image . . . . (Lev. 26:1) KJV Story book

Why don't you finish that verse off? I will for you :

"Do not make idols or set up an image or sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to give worship to it."
(BBE version)

Cherry pick much? Lol

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Idols are worshiped in place of God.
As my previous Posts detailed plus the admission of that catholic lady, catholics literally ' worship ' their statues etc.

We don't worship Mary...Maybe that 'catholic' lady does but proper adhering Catholics do not and are forbidden to do so by the CCC.

At 1/28/2012 3:32:08 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Anyways, when the Bible condemns graven images, it always does so in the context that they are idols. That is objects of worship. Once again, you misinterpret and cherry-pick verses to, "prove," your case. However with context we know you are incorrect in your assertions.
Your claims are incorrect as my Posts and evidence unambiguously prove!

Please report immediately to your catholic churches and smash your idols!

Please go read the CCC. You're a true embarrassment to all atheists. You pretend to know so much but in reality you know nothing and are in constant guilt of imposing straw man charges on Christians.
"Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under." - Gileandos

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice - Proverb
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM, Composer wrote:
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (My bolds) -

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church.. We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Composer
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1/28/2012 6:59:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
At 1/28/2012 2:32:26 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

So the Lord and Moses are both cursed? Did God sin against His own commandment? Or do you have a very weak understanding of Scripture?
Just what I wanted, thanks, your Story book you proved is 100% man-made and self contradicting!

Your reference to another mythical character outside of Story book land (Moses) also denounces your absolute desperation for credibility of which you have zero!

You beuty! Keep up my good work!


At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
no you have only shown your lacking ability to back up anything you say. You only make statements and then change the subject when cornered.
I have not been ' cornered ' in the slightest!

What have I allegedly ' changed the subject regarding? '


At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
You try to use Scripture against someone but when your bluff is called you try to use it against something else, and then you to disgrace yourself by not replying to anything some one says.
Your slander is noted, what haven't I allegedly not replied to and IF I haven't for some reason unknown to me especially, then I'll address it when you show it!

At 1/28/2012 1:59:54 AM, jharry wrote:
Oh yeah, when you bold everything you write it only let's everyone you know you are simply making up for what your post lack, truth.
More of your empty BS, IF the Mods didn't want the Bold Function then they wouldn't have provided it, but I seriously suspect they realised that emphasis was required by those successful teachers like me, to better penetrate thick-heads like yours that manipulate the text to mean what you wished it said for your cause, but in reality doesn't!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
No, you use it to make your words more true then they are.
Incorrect and your ' say so ' doesn't qualify as legitimate evidence for your lost cause!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
You dodge everything anyone says to you with insults and back stepping.
I back up everything with Truth and when required to do so Story book supportive text! that always legitimately refutes dumb claims and dumb comments like yours!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
That's cool though, I have put a spotlight on you, you have been weighed and found lacking.
Your empty words again sweetie!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
Do you realize you embarrass most atheists that read your posts?
Incorrect!

It is clowns like you that do nothing but spout Ad Hominem attacks that expose yourselves as inept fools!


IF you object to the Bold, Italics & Underline contact them and state your case!

I don;t care if you have to use them,
Incorrect! If you didn't object, you wouldn't have raised my use of it!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
Lol, I'm not done with you yet friend.
Though you wish to be my friend it is not reciprocal, as I do not associate with inept, loud-mouthed clowns like you and because my highest of standards (higher than your Story book gods in fact) also prevent those like you also being my friend!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
If you back out now it will show your weakness.
Back down from what silly boy?

I called your bluff so that must mean it shows my strength!


At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
None of these verses contradict each other.
Your claims remain spurious & incorrect as I have repeatedly shown again also here!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
In one set of verses God commands us not to make AND worship these idols. When Moses made the Snake it was not intended to be worshiped.
Silly boy, the fact that man was commanded NOT to make idols = graven-images, but Story book Moses was then told the opposite and to make one; only demonstrates what I said, your preferred Story book is self contradicting, and proves either your imaginary divine friend is a bumbling fool as well as a narcissistic character or else the 100% men that concocted your preferred Story book, tripped up over themselves and wrote contradicting messages and since your legitimate evidence for a literal god = zero, it must therefore be those bumbling fools of men that concocted their self-contradicting Story book bible dupes like you try to perpetuate!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
It was intended to to be looked at to remind Israel of who they were and who God is. The same as the statues today, not worshiped.
Lev. 26:1 states there must be NO statues, idols or graven-images!
&
"
You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (Exod. 20:4) CE RSV Story book 1966

Thus, IF this Story book jesus is allegely in heaven according to your hypothesis, then depicting it on a cross (crucifix) is another of your sinful acts!

BTW: Are you a catholic? If not, do you still sin?
Do you believe in Free-Will and have supportive evidence?
We can start another Thread about this IF you prefer or simply answer here and now?


That includes the abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!
&

beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV Story book 1966

Hence again the abominable statues and depictions (artwork) depicting the human likeness of Story book jesus, Mary and the Story book Apostles is another sinful act!

Repent ye malignant bible Story book pretend believing sinners (cf: Romans 7:23) and start by tearing down your idols (graven images) instead of continually disobeying and sinning against your imaginary friend Story book jesus. LOL!

At 1/28/2012 3:34:59 AM, jharry wrote:
Are you going to change the subject now? Or just more insults and declaring your victory? lol, you are fun. Please don't back down now. ;)
I shan't you malignant idol worshipper (e.g. Statues of Mary) and I haven't ' changed ' the subject!

I'll stay as I always do and continue to prove you graven-image makers are defiant to your imaginary divine friend and your preferred Story book!

Next!
Composer
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1/28/2012 7:25:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 3:46:45 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 3:26:34 AM, Composer wrote:
worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-) 1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites. 2 idolize or regard with adoration. 3 attend public worship. 4 be full of adoration. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

You are trying to now tell us that catholics do not have and are not full of immense ' adoration ' for Mary and the catholic saints and all the statues and paintings and idols and crap they sell in the catholic shops are there because you do not adore them? LOL!

At 1/28/2012 3:46:45 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Quit babbling and speak clearly. We do have adoration for them. (Composer's emphasis)
1. " NB: You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (Exod. 20:4) CE RSV Story book 1966

Thus, IF this Story book jesus is allegely in heaven, then depicting it on a cross/crucifix is a sinful act!

2. Let's Admit It Already! We Catholics PRAY TO MARY! by Michaela (no login)

Let's stop beating around the bush and admit it already! We, as Catholics, worship Mary! We pray to her, we bow before her statues, we place her in every position that Jesus holds. We rely on her for our salvation. We gave her many titles and even place crowns on the heads of her statues. Just watch the crowds in Fatima as they bow, pray and wave before the her statues being carried through the streets! I have done it as well as every Catholic that i have come into contact with at the many Marian shrines i go to around the world. Why do we, as Catholics, continue to lie about this? Just admit it already! - Posted on Apr 13, 2006, 10:23 PM
from IP address 71.31.154.136 You are NOT Catholic. Salmon, Apr 14, 2006

You don't wish to believe me so try believing that practicing catholic!

At 1/28/2012 3:46:45 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Quit babbling and speak clearly. We do have adoration for them (Composer's emphasis) .

The babble is all yours & those of your like-minded catholic dupes! Your own admission that you have adoration towards e.g. Mary, unambiguously proves you catholics literally and in fact actually Worship Mary! - QED


worship —n. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) . . . . (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)

The very fact that Deut. 5:8 - 9 catholic edition RSV Story book categorically states - catholic god says DON'T MAKE THEM and DON'T BOW / incline the head before them, is obviously a difficulty for catholics to comprehend. DON'T to them interprets as ' DO?'

catholics bow in front of their pagan idols, fact! and I have seen it myself many a time and not only that, they make a pagan sign of the cross on their chests i.e. making a carved image by their hand gestures creating an 'image' of a cross on their chests. 2 pagan idols.

Get along to your catholic priests, kick their butts for lying to you and smash their graven-images they told you dupes to worship!
Composer
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1/28/2012 7:50:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
johnnyboy54 also just refuted you -
We do have adoration for them. . . . .

worship —n. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)
Hence he admits by default (adoration = worship) that catholics DO worship their statues/idols = graven-images, e.g. Mary!

&

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say veneration means?
In the glossary under veneration it says this.
"Veneration (of saints): Showing ****devotion**** and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ

****Note: DEVOTION

What the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says WORSHIP means:

1. The reverent love accorded a diety, idol, or sacred object
2. A set of ceremonies or prayers by which this love is expressed.
***(NOVENA'S, PILGRIMAGES and PROCESSIONS that we do for Mary)***
3. ARDENT DEVOTION
ect.

Hence even the catholics catechism itself proves catholics WORSHIP their idols!

QED


At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church..
Another Topic but for the moment you are obviously not aware either that the Original believers rejected trinitarianism!

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . . (p. 160 - Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
Another Topic but for now we also know Story book jesus was a sinner that had to offer up a sacrifice FIRST for its own sins (Heb. 7:27) RSV catholic Story book edition 1965

Next!
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 7:50:33 PM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
johnnyboy54 also just refuted you -
We do have adoration for them. . . . .

worship —n. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)
Hence he admits by default (adoration = worship) that catholics DO worship their statues/idols = graven-images, e.g. Mary!

Adoration- 1. the act of paying honor, as like to a divine being 2. reverent homage 3. fervent and devoted love

http://dictionary.reference.com...

Words can mean different things in different contexts. Adoration does not always mean worship, although it can. However it also means to hold someone or something in high regard. That is not the same as worship. For example I adore may adore a person for their virtues. However I do not worship them or recognize them as a deity. However during Lent we have Adoration of Christ, which does mean worship. Adoration means something completely different in these separate contexts.

Another example, the word, "gay." In one context, it means a homosexual. In another, it means lame or strange. However if someone were to say they were gay, they do not mean lame. They mean they are homosexual.

&

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say veneration means?
In the glossary under veneration it says this.
"Veneration (of saints): Showing ****devotion**** and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ

****Note: DEVOTION

What the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says WORSHIP means:

1. The reverent love accorded a diety, idol, or sacred object
2. A set of ceremonies or prayers by which this love is expressed.
***(NOVENA'S, PILGRIMAGES and PROCESSIONS that we do for Mary)***
3. ARDENT DEVOTION
ect.

Devotion 1. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle. See Synonyms at love. 2.Religious ardor or zeal; piety. 3. An act of religious observance or prayer, especially when private. Often used in the plural.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

You keep equivocating one definition of a word for another for another. Devotion here means respect, to hold in high esteem or love. Not only that there are different types of devotion. We do not show devotion to Mary as divine. However we adore and devote ourselves to her because she was the mother of our Lord. WE DO NOT WORSHIP HER!!!

Hence even the catholics catechism itself proves catholics WORSHIP their idols!

No you just keep substituting your own definitions for the words for something else.


QED


At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church..
Another Topic but for the moment you are obviously not aware either that the Original believers rejected trinitarianism!

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . . (p. 160 - Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
Another Topic but for now we also know Story book jesus was a sinner that had to offer up a sacrifice FIRST for its own sins (Heb. 7:27) RSV catholic Story book edition 1965

Next!

You keep acting like you have defeated my arguments. However you simply equivocate some definitions of words for another. Adoration does not always involve worship. Also devotion does not necessarily mean to worship. I devote myself to my studies. However I do not light candles and bow to my teachers and books. I tire of this. If you want to debate this, then challenge me and let the community decide who is right. But I do not have the time or the energy to deal with your childishness and intellectual dishonesty on these forums anymore.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Composer
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1/29/2012 6:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 7:50:33 PM, Composer wrote:
At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
johnnyboy54 also just refuted you -
We do have adoration for them. . . . .

worship —n. 2 adoration, devotion. 3 (Worship) (Pocket Oxford Dictionary/POD)
Hence he admits by default (adoration = worship) that catholics DO worship their statues/idols = graven-images, e.g. Mary!

At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Adoration- 1. the act of paying honor, as like to a divine being 2. reverent homage 3. fervent and devoted love

http://dictionary.reference.com...

Words can mean different things in different contexts. Adoration does not always mean worship, although it can.
You admit it can and in the catholics case it especially does!

At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
However it also means to hold someone or something in high regard. That is not the same as worship. For example I adore may adore a person for their virtues. However I do not worship them or recognize them as a deity. However during Lent we have Adoration of Christ, which does mean worship. Adoration means something completely different in these separate contexts.
You admitted yourself it means worship! Stop playing illegitimate semantics to try to save face!

At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Another example, the word, "gay." In one context, it means a homosexual. In another, it means lame or strange. However if someone were to say they were gay, they do not mean lame. They mean they are homosexual.
Like your homosexual - gay priests in that context!

&

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say veneration means?
In the glossary under veneration it says this.
"Veneration (of saints): Showing ****devotion**** and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ

****Note: DEVOTION

What the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says WORSHIP means:

1. The reverent love accorded a diety, idol, or sacred object
2. A set of ceremonies or prayers by which this love is expressed.
***(NOVENA'S, PILGRIMAGES and PROCESSIONS that we do for Mary)***
3. ARDENT DEVOTION
ect.

Devotion 1. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle. See Synonyms at love. 2.Religious ardor or zeal; piety. 3. An act of religious observance or prayer, especially when private. Often used in the plural.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote: You keep equivocating one definition of a word for another for another. Devotion here means respect, to hold in high esteem or love. Not only that there are different types of devotion. We do not show devotion to Mary as divine. However we adore and devote ourselves to her because she was the mother of our Lord. WE DO NOT WORSHIP HER!!!
Other catholics disagree!

Hence even the catholics catechism itself proves catholics WORSHIP their idols!

At 1/29/2012 3:58:53 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
No you just keep substituting your own definitions for the words for something else.
You remain incorrect!

" You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (Exod. 20:4) CE RSV Story book 1966

Thus, IF this Story book jesus is allegely in heaven, then depicting it on a cross is a sinful act!

That includes the abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV Story book 1966

Hence again the abominable statues and depictions (artwork) depicting the human likeness of Story book jesus, Mary and the Story book Apostles is another sinful act!

Repent ye malignant bible Story book believing sinners (cf: Romans 7:23) and start by tearing down your idols (graven images) instead of continually disobeying and sinning against your Story book jesus. LOL!

In any and every context you can not legitimately escape nor deny the facts that your graven-images = idols should not even have ever been made for any reason and especially not as religious emblems to be used as physical aids in your pagan Cult based practices!

: : QED

At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church..
Another Topic but for the moment you are obviously not aware either that the Original believers rejected trinitarianism!

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . . (p. 160 - Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
Another Topic but for now we also know Story book jesus was a sinner that had to offer up a sacrifice FIRST for its own sins (Heb. 7:27) RSV catholic Story book edition 1965

Next!

You keep acting like you have defeated my arguments. However you simply equivocate some definitions of words for another. Adoration does not always involve worship. Also devotion does not necessarily mean to worship. I devote myself to my studies. However I do not light candles and bow to my teachers and books. I tire of this. If you want to debate this, then challenge me and let the community decide who is right. But I do not have the time or the energy to deal with your childishness and intellectual dishonesty on these forums anymore.
I have already legitimately defeated you, so debating again is no value and just repetition on my part!

IF however you think you have something new to provide you think might assist you better then by all means do so any time you think you found it!

Better luck next times!

Next!
Blithe
Posts: 3
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2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why are you so adamant on attacking the Catholic Church with your nonsensical accusations? Apparently, there is something that attracts you to it, or do you simply feel threatened?
Composer
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2/11/2012 9:37:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Why are you so adamant on attacking the Catholic Church with your nonsensical accusations?
Which of the Story book quotes refuting the building or creating of graven-images do you object to and your alleged legitimate evidence why?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Apparently, there is something that attracts you to it,
Such as and your legitimate evidence for that Ad Hominem attack?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
or do you simply feel threatened?
Threatened by what? Please give examples and how your corrupt and deceitful mind (cf. Jer. 17:9) came to that spurious conclusion?

Next!
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/14/2012 5:42:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM, Composer wrote:
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (My bolds) -

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church.. We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Blithe
Posts: 3
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2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/11/2012 9:37:46 PM, Composer wrote:
At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Why are you so adamant on attacking the Catholic Church with your nonsensical accusations?
Which of the Story book quotes refuting the building or creating of graven-images do you object to and your alleged legitimate evidence why?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Apparently, there is something that attracts you to it,
Such as and your legitimate evidence for that Ad Hominem attack?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
or do you simply feel threatened?
Threatened by what? Please give examples and how your corrupt and deceitful mind (cf. Jer. 17:9) came to that spurious conclusion?

Next!

The passages forbid making idols to worship. We don't worship idols. It's not very difficult to understand.

But I'm rather curious, actually. What makes a person go about making threads like this? What are you trying to accomplish? We have given you answers, yet you dismiss them with a "Next!" ?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/14/2012 8:19:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/11/2012 9:37:46 PM, Composer wrote:
At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Why are you so adamant on attacking the Catholic Church with your nonsensical accusations?
Which of the Story book quotes refuting the building or creating of graven-images do you object to and your alleged legitimate evidence why?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Apparently, there is something that attracts you to it,
Such as and your legitimate evidence for that Ad Hominem attack?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
or do you simply feel threatened?
Threatened by what? Please give examples and how your corrupt and deceitful mind (cf. Jer. 17:9) came to that spurious conclusion?

Next!

So, so obviously izbo...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Composer
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2/15/2012 3:18:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM, Blithe wrote:
At 2/11/2012 9:37:46 PM, Composer wrote:
At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Why are you so adamant on attacking the Catholic Church with your nonsensical accusations?
Which of the Story book quotes refuting the building or creating of graven-images do you object to and your alleged legitimate evidence why?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
Apparently, there is something that attracts you to it,
Such as and your legitimate evidence for that Ad Hominem attack?

At 2/11/2012 5:32:59 PM, Blithe wrote:
or do you simply feel threatened?
Threatened by what? Please give examples and how your corrupt and deceitful mind (cf. Jer. 17:9) came to that spurious conclusion?

Next!

At 2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM, Blithe wrote:
We don't worship idols. It's not very difficult to understand.
Firstly you are commanded NOT to make any idols or graven-images whatsoever for any purpose - Your very own catholic Story book proofs: -

#3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues, crucifixes and depictions (under the disobedient guise of artwork) of your catholic saints, jesus and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

I also have two more admissions 1. the Public Domain admission of a practising catholic woman that admits most catholics (like you now) tell lies and in reality worship them and bow before them, but described in terms like ' devotion, veneration!

Is that correct or 2. does the catholic cathechism glossary that states those terms also lie as do you now?

At 2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM, Blithe wrote:
But I'm rather curious, actually. What makes a person go about making threads like this?
This (you may also not be aware, LOL!) is a discussion Forum, and hence I raise points for discussion and my favorite ones are all like this that legitimately and successfully expose all Cults like the catholics as liars and frauds!

At 2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM, Blithe wrote: What are you trying to accomplish?
Precisely what I always legitimately & successfully accomplish! i.e. busting Cults like yours!

At 2/14/2012 7:58:42 PM, Blithe wrote:
We have given you answers, yet you dismiss them with a "Next!" ?
The ' answers received so far ' such as yours are frankly dishonest and besides your own preferred Story book bible & your very own cathechism, successfully and legitimately refute your Idol worshipping Cult; also another example of a woman calling themselves a genuine practising catholic, flatly exposes your claims as well!
Composer
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2/15/2012 3:33:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/14/2012 5:42:27 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/28/2012 10:02:19 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 1/28/2012 1:35:39 AM, Composer wrote:
I quote from my Hard Copy of the Catholic Edition RSV 1966 (My bolds) -

#1: " You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God. " (Lev. 26:1) CE RSV 1966

7181 - carved image (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible NIV Version. 1996)

cf. #2: " You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them ; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God . . . . . . . (Exod. 20:4, 5) CE RSV 1966

That includes your abominable catholic artwork depicting various alleged heavenly and earthly characters like Mary for example!

cf. #3: beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of any male or female, (Deut. 4:16) CE RSV 1966

Again your abominable statues and depictions (artwork) of your catholic saints and Mary!

cf. #4: " 'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molton image, an abomination to the Lord, . . . . (Deut. 27:15) CE RSV 1966

The catholic cult is guilty on ALL counts!

Yes, but they do say that Jesus IS God so they are part of the Church.. We must give them MERCY.. He who is without sin!
Lots say that Story book jesus = their preferred god however

1. The legitimate evidence ANY literal gods exist outside of Story book bible land = zero!
2. Story book jesus never claimed to be equal to his god!
3. The Original & earliest believers NEVER considered Story book jesus as = to YHWH! They considered Story book jesus as its gods mouthpiece!
4. ALL beliefs that teach Story book jesus is a god are at odds with the Original believers!
5. Story book jesus even told other mortals they would do ' greater miracles.works ' than your alleged Fully godman ever did! (John 14:12) KJV Story book. So please explain how mere mortals are promised to be able to do greater works than your alleged trinitarian Fully godman?, LOL!