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Without God all is meaningless ?

Illegalcombatant
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1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/28/2012 6:21:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think it's because, let's say that after you die, your dead. Welcome to nothingness. Well then, all that you did or tried to do was futile. You could have been a lazy slob, or a workaholic. You could have been good,evil, or somewhere in between. But it doesn't matter because whatever you did before you died is temporary. Even if you founded a political idea, founded a cure for cancer, anything. Because, religion and science agree that eventually the earth will be destroyed and all humanity will be gone. BUT, then there's God. God,regardless of your religion,barring satanists, believe that you will be held accountable for your actions,morals,etc. Little Sally's parents have peace of mind knowing that Sally is in heaven, and that the rapist, once dead will endure unbearable punishment for eternity. Those who in this life have been good, know that they will be rewarded. For many people, this gives them motivation to "be good" and productive, etc. Kinda like how a kid will be more willing to study if you promised him his favorite candies.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/28/2012 6:22:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Meaning itself is actually a product of how our cognitive process works. It is purely human, God doesn't work with meaning.

This is all very related to the duality of the human cognitive process. God does not have this handicap, because God is, in essence, objectivity. With God, there is no meaning, just what is. There is no duality with God, God is the one, the none, and the infinite.

The question of meaning is absurd. The religious have a very different understanding of the concept than the non-religious. They might as well be talking about different things.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 6:23:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.

Huh, I never thought of it like that.

You have a point. If, for example, the Christian god exists, then our only purpose is to aid his insecurity; but that does not in itself give our lives meaning, as we are merely slaves to his pleasure.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/28/2012 6:26:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:23:49 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.

Huh, I never thought of it like that.

You have a point. If, for example, the Christian god exists, then our only purpose is to aid his insecurity; but that does not in itself give our lives meaning, as we are merely slaves to his pleasure.

How is God insecure? And if he created us, gives us life, then we should be God's slave.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 6:29:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:21:26 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
I think it's because, let's say that after you die, your dead. Welcome to nothingness. Well then, all that you did or tried to do was futile. You could have been a lazy slob, or a workaholic. You could have been good,evil, or somewhere in between. But it doesn't matter because whatever you did before you died is temporary. Even if you founded a political idea, founded a cure for cancer, anything. Because, religion and science agree that eventually the earth will be destroyed and all humanity will be gone. BUT, then there's God. God,regardless of your religion,barring satanists, believe that you will be held accountable for your actions,morals,etc. Little Sally's parents have peace of mind knowing that Sally is in heaven, and that the rapist, once dead will endure unbearable punishment for eternity. Those who in this life have been good, know that they will be rewarded. For many people, this gives them motivation to "be good" and productive, etc. Kinda like how a kid will be more willing to study if you promised him his favorite candies.

So you affirmed nihilism, but you didn't expand on the alternative.

Living life in the hope of the mystical reward of eternal life does not grant meaning, as you must therefore ask "What is the meaning of eternal life?". Illegal's right; all the concept of a reward such as this does is push the question one step back.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/28/2012 6:29:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
All are slaves of God, whether you like it or even know it. This is true Islam.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/28/2012 6:31:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:26:45 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:

How is God insecure? And if he created us, gives us life, then we should be God's slave.

I use to find and maybe still do Hitchens remarks about how believers have a slave mentality as drawing a bit of a long bow, but when you hear remarks like this, and just imagine what thinking process are going through some ones head to justify that comment, well its gets harder to argue with the man.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 6:32:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:26:45 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:23:49 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.

Huh, I never thought of it like that.

You have a point. If, for example, the Christian god exists, then our only purpose is to aid his insecurity; but that does not in itself give our lives meaning, as we are merely slaves to his pleasure.

How is God insecure?

Why do you think god created us?

And if he created us, gives us life, then we should be God's slave.

That does not give our lives meaning. If a slaves meaning in life is merely to please their master, and has no concern for the slaves desires, wants, or dreams, then their isn't a meaning to life from the slaves perspective. Thus the entire question becomes meaningless, as nihilism just became fact.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/28/2012 6:32:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:29:04 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
All are slaves of God, whether you like it or even know it. This is true Islam.

Yep everyone, rich or poor, young or old. No matter if you are a muslim or not. We will all answer to God.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/28/2012 6:37:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everything is an act of God's will and law. Human beings are not an exception to the law of causality and a fundamentally deterministic universe.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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1/28/2012 6:37:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:32:06 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:26:45 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:23:49 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.

Huh, I never thought of it like that.

You have a point. If, for example, the Christian god exists, then our only purpose is to aid his insecurity; but that does not in itself give our lives meaning, as we are merely slaves to his pleasure.

How is God insecure?

Why do you think god created us?

And if he created us, gives us life, then we should be God's slave.

That does not give our lives meaning. If a slaves meaning in life is merely to please their master, and has no concern for the slaves desires, wants, or dreams, then their isn't a meaning to life from the slaves perspective. Thus the entire question becomes meaningless, as nihilism just became fact.

God must care about us because since we are his slaves, he could just send everyone to hell. Why reward anyone with heaven? Why would he reward doing good to other slaves, not just the master?
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
Physik
Posts: 686
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1/28/2012 6:40:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:37:11 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:32:06 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:26:45 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:23:49 PM, Physik wrote:
At 1/28/2012 6:08:33 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A common claim, often implied is that without God everything is meaningless. For example I think some one once asked Christopher Hitchens something along the lines of well if there is no God why do you get up in the morning ?

Now of course the question wasn't a strict literal question, the question was to express the assumption that without God, the atheism that Hitchens subscribes too everything is meaning less. The problem here for me is that what ever problem you think you have raised isn't so much solved by the existence of God but rather just pushes the problem a few steps back.

Say for example the universe and our lives are meaninglessness, how does invoking a person who exists outside/transcend the universe suddenly make the difference of now it has meaning ? Hey little sally got raped and tortured to death, you live, you die and everything becomes dust.......but hey it has meaning in theism because there is an invisible powerful person that exists and thus has meaning ? seems like a non sequitur to me.

One of the most common ways to create meaning in this universe is too invoke an after life, but once again this doesn't seem to solve the problem it just pushes the problem a step back. If an after life is needed to make this life "meaningful" does that mean the after life needs an after life of its own to be meaningful ? What ever the answer you have now created more problems.

The point here is to go into more detail how meaning some how exists in theism and not in atheism.

Without God your life or everything is meaningless because............?

But with God your life or everything has meaning because...........?

Actually reason on your answer, don't let some religious bumper sticker cliche be a thought terminator thanks.

Huh, I never thought of it like that.

You have a point. If, for example, the Christian god exists, then our only purpose is to aid his insecurity; but that does not in itself give our lives meaning, as we are merely slaves to his pleasure.

How is God insecure?

Why do you think god created us?

And if he created us, gives us life, then we should be God's slave.

That does not give our lives meaning. If a slaves meaning in life is merely to please their master, and has no concern for the slaves desires, wants, or dreams, then their isn't a meaning to life from the slaves perspective. Thus the entire question becomes meaningless, as nihilism just became fact.

God must care about us because since we are his slaves, he could just send everyone to hell. Why reward anyone with heaven? Why would he reward doing good to other slaves, not just the master?

He doesn't care about us, he only cares about whether we follow his word or not. Why does he do this? Because he's insecure.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
rogue
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1/28/2012 7:35:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:21:26 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
I think it's because, let's say that after you die, your dead. Welcome to nothingness. Well then, all that you did or tried to do was futile.

Why? During your life you probably affected people in positive and negative ways, is that so meaningless or futile?

You could have been a lazy slob, or a workaholic. You could have been good,evil, or somewhere in between. But it doesn't matter because whatever you did before you died is temporary. Even if you founded a political idea, founded a cure for cancer, anything.

You are seriously saying that without god a cure for cancer in meaningless? That seems backwards to me. If there isn't life after death then we should do all we can to prolong life here on earth and anyone who helped with that is a savior.

Because, religion and science agree that eventually the earth will be destroyed and all humanity will be gone. BUT, then there's God. God,regardless of your religion,barring satanists, believe that you will be held accountable for your actions,morals,etc. Little Sally's parents have peace of mind knowing that Sally is in heaven, and that the rapist, once dead will endure unbearable punishment for eternity. Those who in this life have been good, know that they will be rewarded. For many people, this gives them motivation to "be good" and productive, etc. Kinda like how a kid will be more willing to study if you promised him his favorite candies.

Very comforting to think of right? But that doesn't make it true or a rational belief.
tkubok
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1/28/2012 8:52:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:37:11 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
God must care about us because since we are his slaves, he could just send everyone to hell. Why reward anyone with heaven? Why would he reward doing good to other slaves, not just the master?

This is assuming that heaven and hell exist. If God exists but heaven/hell does not, then it would mean that he was indifferent about us.
tkubok
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1/28/2012 9:11:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/28/2012 6:21:26 PM, bhatti1020 wrote:
I think it's because, let's say that after you die, your dead. Welcome to nothingness. Well then, all that you did or tried to do was futile. You could have been a lazy slob, or a workaholic. You could have been good,evil, or somewhere in between. But it doesn't matter because whatever you did before you died is temporary.

You got it backwards.

Lets use Gold as an example. If you had an infinite supply of Gold, it would make the value of Gold meaningless because the market would be saturated with your Gold and the value would drop. The more you spend, the less it would be worth. Gold is precisely worth so much because of its rarity, because of how little we have.

The same is true with Life. The fact that life ends, makes it that much more valuable, as opposed to an eternal afterlife.

Even if you founded a political idea, founded a cure for cancer, anything. Because, religion and science agree that eventually the earth will be destroyed and all humanity will be gone.

All flowers eventually die. Does it make the flower less beautiful when they bloom? No.

BUT, then there's God. God,regardless of your religion,barring satanists, believe that you will be held accountable for your actions,morals,etc.

Thats assuming that this God shares our sense of morals. What if God is an evil God? What if he rewards rapists and murderers?

Little Sally's parents have peace of mind knowing that Sally is in heaven, and that the rapist, once dead will endure unbearable punishment for eternity. Those who in this life have been good, know that they will be rewarded.

If this is true, then why punish people? Why make jails? Why bother with courts, trials?

Why bother curing disease? Prolonging life? Why would parents bother crying when their children are dead, if they get to see their children in heaven? Why bother preventing your chlidren from dying?

For many people, this gives them motivation to "be good" and productive, etc. Kinda like how a kid will be more willing to study if you promised him his favorite candies.

For some, the definition of "Be Good' include Honour killings, Suicide bombing, Pipe bombing abortion clinics.....
Wnope
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1/28/2012 9:13:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Life must be so depressing for people who believe everything to be meaningless without God.

You don't need a deity to spoon-feed you a purpose. You can die or live. Once you've made a decision on that, act appropriately according to your objective in life.

I can't imagine the nihilism needed to say that everything is worthless without some God in the sky and an afterlife.