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morals?

youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
LB628
Posts: 176
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6/3/2009 9:25:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
While I am not a Christian, from what I have seen of others, it is because the majority of Protestants, and nearly every Catholic, have not read the entire bible, and those that have, probably did not memorize it.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/3/2009 10:21:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM, youngdebater wrote:
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:


Some would argue that he still is pleased. It's most disturbing.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Social control.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Social control. Anti-competition. Anti-matriarchy.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Arguably they could still do it standing up.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Sometimes the old laws are best. But seriously, anti-competition again.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Anti-competition, of a very different sort.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Fixed by Catholicism: Priests have no daughters to fornicate. The price paid is merely the molestation of children. A pittance. But seriously, social control and indoctrination ... priests needed to look righteous by prevailing social standards to maintain control.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Hilarious implications, of course.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Anti-competition and indoctrination. Also, mandatory snipe hunt.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Anti-competition clause. Ensures complete erasure of competition by keeping animals from possibly passing on the secret. Dead lambs bleat no tales.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Severe indoctrination. Note: Atheists are immune to this provision, and most of the 'worship other gods' provisions, actually.


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Anti-competition clause. Early eugenics program.

and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Let's face it: if you have a sword what are you supposed to do with it? Let it rust? But very seriously: the reason for all these verses was fear, of the unknown and of the unconquerable. The fear itself was probably a useful survival mechanism in the world of the past, but it's rather useless now.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/3/2009 10:34:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 10:21:27 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM, youngdebater wrote:
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:


Some would argue that he still is pleased. It's most disturbing.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Social control.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Social control. Anti-competition. Anti-matriarchy.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Arguably they could still do it standing up.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Sometimes the old laws are best. But seriously, anti-competition again.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Anti-competition, of a very different sort.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Fixed by Catholicism: Priests have no daughters to fornicate. The price paid is merely the molestation of children. A pittance. But seriously, social control and indoctrination ... priests needed to look righteous by prevailing social standards to maintain control.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Hilarious implications, of course.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Anti-competition and indoctrination. Also, mandatory snipe hunt.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Anti-competition clause. Ensures complete erasure of competition by keeping animals from possibly passing on the secret. Dead lambs bleat no tales.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Severe indoctrination. Note: Atheists are immune to this provision, and most of the 'worship other gods' provisions, actually.


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Anti-competition clause. Early eugenics program.

and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Let's face it: if you have a sword what are you supposed to do with it? Let it rust? But very seriously: the reason for all these verses was fear, of the unknown and of the unconquerable. The fear itself was probably a useful survival mechanism in the world of the past, but it's rather useless now.

do you believe in god?
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/3/2009 10:59:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 10:34:04 PM, youngdebater wrote:
At 6/3/2009 10:21:27 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM, youngdebater wrote:
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:


Some would argue that he still is pleased. It's most disturbing.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Social control.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Social control. Anti-competition. Anti-matriarchy.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Arguably they could still do it standing up.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Sometimes the old laws are best. But seriously, anti-competition again.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Anti-competition, of a very different sort.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Fixed by Catholicism: Priests have no daughters to fornicate. The price paid is merely the molestation of children. A pittance. But seriously, social control and indoctrination ... priests needed to look righteous by prevailing social standards to maintain control.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Hilarious implications, of course.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Anti-competition and indoctrination. Also, mandatory snipe hunt.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Anti-competition clause. Ensures complete erasure of competition by keeping animals from possibly passing on the secret. Dead lambs bleat no tales.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Severe indoctrination. Note: Atheists are immune to this provision, and most of the 'worship other gods' provisions, actually.


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Anti-competition clause. Early eugenics program.

and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Let's face it: if you have a sword what are you supposed to do with it? Let it rust? But very seriously: the reason for all these verses was fear, of the unknown and of the unconquerable. The fear itself was probably a useful survival mechanism in the world of the past, but it's rather useless now.

do you believe in god?

A lot of that was sarcastic criticism of the Bible, just so you know. As for the answer: it's complicated. For a while I was an atheist, because atheism seemed the logical course to take. If you check out my profile and my comments here, however, you'll see that I have this odd dedication to working with what I observe or learn. I have come to the conclusion that there may, in fact, be an omnicausal consciousness, that could be considered God for all practical purposes. However, my beliefs on the matter are irrelevant and likely flawed. I can not provide you with a repeatable method of observing any form or act of divinity. Therefore, I can not recommend, let alone insist, that you validate my possible delusions in this regard. As such, I am a true agnostic: inclined to believe personally that there is a first cause (if not an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God) but disinclined to force that belief on anyone else or to heed the prattle of those conditioned to believe in the power and goodness of the unknown without ever aspiring to know it.

So, yes I have a personal belief in a force that meets a non-standard definition of God. No, I do not believe in the Bible as a source of authority. No, I do not believe in a God who likes to personally intercede in the world's affairs. No, I do not believe in a God who condemns any human behavior, or awards any behavior. No, I do not believe in a God who holds a moral authority, because I believe that morals are valued relative to the ends they seek to produce.

So ... define god, then ask yourself whether or not I meet the criteria to believe in it. :)
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/4/2009 2:11:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 10:59:41 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 10:34:04 PM, youngdebater wrote:
At 6/3/2009 10:21:27 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM, youngdebater wrote:
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:


Some would argue that he still is pleased. It's most disturbing.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Social control.

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Social control. Anti-competition. Anti-matriarchy.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Arguably they could still do it standing up.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Sometimes the old laws are best. But seriously, anti-competition again.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Anti-competition, of a very different sort.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)


Fixed by Catholicism: Priests have no daughters to fornicate. The price paid is merely the molestation of children. A pittance. But seriously, social control and indoctrination ... priests needed to look righteous by prevailing social standards to maintain control.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Hilarious implications, of course.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Anti-competition and indoctrination. Also, mandatory snipe hunt.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Anti-competition clause. Ensures complete erasure of competition by keeping animals from possibly passing on the secret. Dead lambs bleat no tales.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Anti-competition clause. Severe indoctrination. Note: Atheists are immune to this provision, and most of the 'worship other gods' provisions, actually.


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Anti-competition clause. Early eugenics program.

and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Let's face it: if you have a sword what are you supposed to do with it? Let it rust? But very seriously: the reason for all these verses was fear, of the unknown and of the unconquerable. The fear itself was probably a useful survival mechanism in the world of the past, but it's rather useless now.

do you believe in god?

A lot of that was sarcastic criticism of the Bible, just so you know. As for the answer: it's complicated. For a while I was an atheist, because atheism seemed the logical course to take. If you check out my profile and my comments here, however, you'll see that I have this odd dedication to working with what I observe or learn. I have come to the conclusion that there may, in fact, be an omnicausal consciousness, that could be considered God for all practical purposes. However, my beliefs on the matter are irrelevant and likely flawed. I can not provide you with a repeatable method of observing any form or act of divinity. Therefore, I can not recommend, let alone insist, that you validate my possible delusions in this regard. As such, I am a true agnostic: inclined to believe personally that there is a first cause (if not an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God) but disinclined to force that belief on anyone else or to heed the prattle of those conditioned to believe in the power and goodness of the unknown without ever aspiring to know it.

So, yes I have a personal belief in a force that meets a non-standard definition of God. No, I do not believe in the Bible as a source of authority. No, I do not believe in a God who likes to personally intercede in the world's affairs. No, I do not believe in a God who condemns any human behavior, or awards any behavior. No, I do not believe in a God who holds a moral authority, because I believe that morals are valued relative to the ends they seek to produce.

So ... define god, then ask yourself whether or not I meet the criteria to believe in it. :)

well as far as i understand, god would need to be outside of space and time, he would need to be all powerful, all knowing, and the creator of everything. i cant descide for you weather or not you meet any criteria because your definition of god could be different to others. i dont believe in god at all simply because there is no evidence for his existence. plus we need to be able to somehow tap into other dimensions to know if he really exists. i think that if you really think that you have sufficient reason to believe that god exists then go ahead.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2009 7:23:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/3/2009 9:17:01 PM, youngdebater wrote:
i just really quickly want to know why religios people constantly think the bible is a good supply for morals. i know the bible in the old testimaent there are many verses that endorce killing. is god truely is "unchanging" then shouldnt he still be pleased when people kill others? here are some verses:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Old Testament simply records the first covenant. This covenant was of the flesh and comprised of the Law. This covenant was with the Jewish Nation.
God is showing us that religion cannot work.
That no matter how harsh the punishments are people will still sin.
Because they are sinful.

The New Testament records the second covenant, a covenant of the Spirit.
Us born again types now have God within us.. and so the law (and so the punishments) become obsolete.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

The Cross.. the Cross.
youngdebater
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6/4/2009 6:28:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Old Testament simply records the first covenant. This covenant was of the flesh and comprised of the Law. This covenant was with the Jewish Nation.
God is showing us that religion cannot work.
That no matter how harsh the punishments are people will still sin.
Because they are sinful.

The New Testament records the second covenant, a covenant of the Spirit.
Us born again types now have God within us.. and so the law (and so the punishments) become obsolete.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.




you are missing the point. god is endorcing his laws, god made these laws. killing people is the most imoral thing in the world. so god is totally imoral.

here are some verses from his bible:

Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows (James 1:17).

The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever(Isaiah 40:8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

so these verses clearly indicate that his words still hold value and are still true. so it is not true for you to say that the bibles laws changed. god would like people to kill people
DATCMOTO
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6/5/2009 6:16:00 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/4/2009 6:28:21 PM, youngdebater wrote:
The Old Testament simply records the first covenant. This covenant was of the flesh and comprised of the Law. This covenant was with the Jewish Nation.
God is showing us that religion cannot work.
That no matter how harsh the punishments are people will still sin.
Because they are sinful.

The New Testament records the second covenant, a covenant of the Spirit.
Us born again types now have God within us.. and so the law (and so the punishments) become obsolete.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.




you are missing the point. god is endorcing his laws, god made these laws. killing people is the most imoral thing in the world. so god is totally imoral.

here are some verses from his bible:

Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows (James 1:17).

The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever(Isaiah 40:8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

so these verses clearly indicate that his words still hold value and are still true. so it is not true for you to say that the bibles laws changed. god would like people to kill people

It is you who is missing the point. and by quite a measure.

The Law shows us just how serious the matter (sin, our fallen nature etc) is..
The New covenant allows us to show MERCY, Just as our Father is Merciful.

The woman caught in adultery deserved to be stoned to death..
Jesus said " Let He who is without sin cast the first stone. "
The Law was made to prevent sin.
Because of sinful men it ended up being used for personal gain.

Hebrews 8:10 (New King James Version)
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


The reason you cannot fathom the Bible is because have not submitted to its Authority.

Therefore you do not understand it.

under. stand.

stand under.

Psalm 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.


AND kindly use the spellcheck as I do not have the time to wait on your posts as well as my own.
Thank you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/7/2009 9:02:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/5/2009 6:16:00 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/4/2009 6:28:21 PM, youngdebater wrote:
The Old Testament simply records the first covenant. This covenant was of the flesh and comprised of the Law. This covenant was with the Jewish Nation.
God is showing us that religion cannot work.
That no matter how harsh the punishments are people will still sin.
Because they are sinful.

The New Testament records the second covenant, a covenant of the Spirit.
Us born again types now have God within us.. and so the law (and so the punishments) become obsolete.

Galatians 5:22-23 (New King James Version)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.




you are missing the point. god is endorcing his laws, god made these laws. killing people is the most imoral thing in the world. so god is totally imoral.

here are some verses from his bible:

Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows (James 1:17).

The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever(Isaiah 40:8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

so these verses clearly indicate that his words still hold value and are still true. so it is not true for you to say that the bibles laws changed. god would like people to kill people

It is you who is missing the point. and by quite a measure.

The Law shows us just how serious the matter (sin, our fallen nature etc) is..
The New covenant allows us to show MERCY, Just as our Father is Merciful.

The woman caught in adultery deserved to be stoned to death..
Jesus said " Let He who is without sin cast the first stone. "
The Law was made to prevent sin.
Because of sinful men it ended up being used for personal gain.

Hebrews 8:10 (New King James Version)
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


The reason you cannot fathom the Bible is because have not submitted to its Authority.

Therefore you do not understand it.

under. stand.

stand under.

Psalm 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.


AND kindly use the spellcheck as I do not have the time to wait on your posts as well as my own.
Thank you.

i was once a christian and i know quite a bit about the bible.

the bible has no authority. it has as much authority as any other holy book.

god made laws that advocate killing. and sin was defined by god. god advocated the death penalty for disobeying laws that he made up. any of these verses do not describe an action worthy of death by any realistic means. for you to sit here and try to argue that god is moral even though he once advocated killing makes you as well seem like a depraved imoral person.

and you completely passed over the verses i wrote about how god does not change. if he once said kill the adultress and changed his mind later and said let he who has no sin cast the first stone, then either one of three things is wrong, either that story about jesus is a lie or those three verses are lies, or jesus was not god.

and i can pass judgement on whatever i want. what if the bible does not have any authority? then can nobody pass judgement on it?
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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6/8/2009 8:45:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Before DAT comes back... here's a preview...

At 6/7/2009 9:02:26 PM, youngdebater wrote:

i was once a christian and i know quite a bit about the bible.

He will tell you that you are misinterpreting it, regardless of the fact that modern, common interpretations do not support literalism.

the bible has no authority. it has as much authority as any other holy book.

He will tell you that the Bible is THE authority and you just do not understand it, despite the fact that all holy books offer the exact same coincidence with reality - little to none. The Bible HAD authority when people GAVE it authority. The Bible is no longer a medical authority (sin causes leprosy?)... so why should it be a moral authority (stone homosexuals?).

god made laws that advocate killing. and sin was defined by god. god advocated the death penalty for disobeying laws that he made up. any of these verses do not describe an action worthy of death by any realistic means. for you to sit here and try to argue that god is moral even though he once advocated killing makes you as well seem like a depraved imoral person.

This is exactly correct, but DAT will tell you that you cannot judge God. A good response to this is that God gave us a standard of morality, and so we have nothing else to evaluate him with, but his own standard. Of course to this, DAT will say that the law doesn't apply to God, but nobody can give a good answer to why God is immune to moral laws when he is the one that CREATES moral law. The obvious conclusion is that there is no rule of law in the kingdom of heaven. A system where the ruler is not bound by his own law is a dictatorship.

and you completely passed over the verses i wrote about how god does not change. if he once said kill the adultress and changed his mind later and said let he who has no sin cast the first stone, then either one of three things is wrong, either that story about jesus is a lie or those three verses are lies, or jesus was not god.

DAT struggles with the concept that if Jesus and God are the same person, then they are jointly liable for God's actions... you won't get anywhere trying to explain this to him. He is too ingrained in the contradictory lies he has been told for 40 years to believe you or to even consider it academically.

and i can pass judgement on whatever i want. what if the bible does not have any authority? then can nobody pass judgement on it?

Again - correct, despite what DAT will tell you. Those who do not accept God's law as binding are of course not bound by the provisions forbidding judgment and testing of God...
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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6/8/2009 5:44:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/8/2009 8:45:12 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Before DAT comes back... here's a preview...

At 6/7/2009 9:02:26 PM, youngdebater wrote:

i was once a christian and i know quite a bit about the bible.

He will tell you that you are misinterpreting it, regardless of the fact that modern, common interpretations do not support literalism.

the bible has no authority. it has as much authority as any other holy book.

He will tell you that the Bible is THE authority and you just do not understand it, despite the fact that all holy books offer the exact same coincidence with reality - little to none. The Bible HAD authority when people GAVE it authority. The Bible is no longer a medical authority (sin causes leprosy?)... so why should it be a moral authority (stone homosexuals?).

god made laws that advocate killing. and sin was defined by god. god advocated the death penalty for disobeying laws that he made up. any of these verses do not describe an action worthy of death by any realistic means. for you to sit here and try to argue that god is moral even though he once advocated killing makes you as well seem like a depraved imoral person.

This is exactly correct, but DAT will tell you that you cannot judge God. A good response to this is that God gave us a standard of morality, and so we have nothing else to evaluate him with, but his own standard. Of course to this, DAT will say that the law doesn't apply to God, but nobody can give a good answer to why God is immune to moral laws when he is the one that CREATES moral law. The obvious conclusion is that there is no rule of law in the kingdom of heaven. A system where the ruler is not bound by his own law is a dictatorship.

and you completely passed over the verses i wrote about how god does not change. if he once said kill the adultress and changed his mind later and said let he who has no sin cast the first stone, then either one of three things is wrong, either that story about jesus is a lie or those three verses are lies, or jesus was not god.

DAT struggles with the concept that if Jesus and God are the same person, then they are jointly liable for God's actions... you won't get anywhere trying to explain this to him. He is too ingrained in the contradictory lies he has been told for 40 years to believe you or to even consider it academically.

and i can pass judgement on whatever i want. what if the bible does not have any authority? then can nobody pass judgement on it?

Again - correct, despite what DAT will tell you. Those who do not accept God's law as binding are of course not bound by the provisions forbidding judgment and testing of God...

ok, thanks
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/8/2009 6:11:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/8/2009 8:45:12 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:

He will tell you that you are misinterpreting it, regardless of the fact that modern, common interpretations do not support literalism.


He will then interpret it for you. There is no paradox, apparently. XD

Of course to this, DAT will say that the law doesn't apply to God, but nobody can give a good answer to why God is immune to moral laws when he is the one that CREATES moral law. The obvious conclusion is that there is no rule of law in the kingdom of heaven. A system where the ruler is not bound by his own law is a dictatorship.


The argument, as I understand it, is that God is the source of law, and that from which a thing emanates can not be bound by its creation. Which, yes, means a dictatorship.

DAT struggles with the concept that if Jesus and God are the same person, then they are jointly liable for God's actions...


That's an interesting perspective ... never thought about it that way. More rationale for why Christians should want to separate Jesus from God if they want his moral teachings to remain valid.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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6/8/2009 8:58:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/8/2009 6:11:27 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:

DAT struggles with the concept that if Jesus and God are the same person, then they are jointly liable for God's actions...


That's an interesting perspective ... never thought about it that way. More rationale for why Christians should want to separate Jesus from God if they want his moral teachings to remain valid.

I actually got the idea from our lease... a separate lease, but the parties are jointly liable for damages and severance...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/9/2009 10:33:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/7/2009 9:02:26 PM, youngdebater wrote:


i was once a christian and i know quite a bit about the bible.

Possibly the most contradictory thing ever posted on this forum.
Now, if you were still a Christian (ie not been defeated by the enemy through lack of knowledge) then you could say you knew a little of the Bible.
You'll fit right in here though.. the place is lousy with back sliders.

the bible has no authority. it has as much authority as any other holy book.

There are no other Holy books.
Who else gives Authority but the Author of all?

god made laws that advocate killing. and sin was defined by god. god advocated the death penalty for disobeying laws that he made up. any of these verses do not describe an action worthy of death by any realistic means. for you to sit here and try to argue that god is moral even though he once advocated killing makes you as well seem like a depraved imoral person.

Then you do not understand the simple concept of mercy.
If a crime warrants no punishment then how can mercy be shown?

and you completely passed over the verses i wrote about how god does not change. if he once said kill the adultress and changed his mind later and said let he who has no sin cast the first stone, then either one of three things is wrong, either that story about jesus is a lie or those three verses are lies, or jesus was not god.

If a crime warrants no punishment then how can mercy be shown?

and i can pass judgement on whatever i want. what if the bible does not have any authority? then can nobody pass judgement on it?

Sure you can believe you are passing judgement but that does not give you the right or even the means to do so.

Proverbs 14:14 (New King James Version)
14 The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways,
But a good man will be satisfied from above.
The Cross.. the Cross.