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By What Authority

OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/2/2012 8:38:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:54:17 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

Itself

circular reasoning at its best.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 8:41:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 8:38:24 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:54:17 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

Itself

circular reasoning at its best.

Totally is
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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2/2/2012 8:43:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God exists because the bible says so.

The bible's true because God wrote it.

^THAT is circular reasoning.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/2/2012 8:48:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Created the universe, is omnipotent, omniscient, and is omnipresent.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Buckethead31594
Posts: 363
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2/2/2012 8:52:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

What is authority?

Authority is subjective; the Bible's authority comes from faith, which is a result of The Human Experience.

The Human Experience dictates what is morally acceptable, good or bad.

The Bible's authority comes from that of The Human Experience, and the awareness of God as an absolute ruler over Man.

God made man in his Image, therefore the Human Experience ultimately derives from God.

So we can conclude that the Bible allows it's own authority through God, who is the origin of all authority.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." - Socrates
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/2/2012 9:17:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 9:22:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:17:09 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.

My apologies, I have a tendency to respond to posts in a minimalist fashion.

Any reasoning presupposes the laws of thought. Any attempt to disprove this must use the laws of thought to do so. Its circular.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/2/2012 9:28:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:17:09 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.

No, it can also be infinity regressive or based on something axiomatic.

Lets allow Sheldon to explain.....
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 9:38:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:28:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:17:09 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.

No, it can also be infinity regressive or based on something axiomatic.

Lets allow Sheldon to explain.....



Axiomatic arguments are ultimately circular. Regressive arguments ultimately never solve themselves (correct?). Yet still any argument draws support from the laws of thought, which is non-falsifiable and presupposed in any attempt to disprove it. Its circular.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/2/2012 9:49:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
An axoim isn't circular.

Circular reasoning would be I am moving out BECAUSE I am moving out.

Axiomatic would be I am moving out
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/2/2012 9:53:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:49:26 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
An axoim isn't circular.

Circular reasoning would be I am moving out BECAUSE I am moving out.

Axiomatic would be I am moving out

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.
2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.
3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
BrotherBuster
Posts: 6
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2/2/2012 10:32:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church." - St. Augustine of Hippo

Canon of Scripture was given in Pope Damascus I's Sacred Council of Rome in 382, ratified in Synod of Hippo 393, accepted at the Sacred Council of Carthage 397 and 419 under St. Augustine, and Pope Innocent I reiterated it to a Bishop in 405.

The Latin Vulgate was commissioned in 383 by Pope Damascus.

+JMJ+
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/2/2012 11:00:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:28:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:17:09 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:09:15 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:00:32 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:42:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 8:38:47 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:55:24 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

God

And where does god get his authority?

Himself. Which is also completely circular.

So you give them credibility why?

All reasoning is eventually circular.

Now that is a claim that desperately needs supporting.

No, it can also be infinity regressive or based on something axiomatic.

Lets allow Sheldon to explain.....



I do love Sheldon....
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/3/2012 9:38:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Point being is that eventually to give existence some form of coherency some things must be presupposed and those things are non-falsifiable. That makes all coherent reasoning circular. Extended point being that just because something is circular does not mean it is unreasonable.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/3/2012 9:44:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 9:53:06 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:49:26 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
An axoim isn't circular.

Circular reasoning would be I am moving out BECAUSE I am moving out.

Axiomatic would be I am moving out

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.
2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.
3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.
Axiom:
All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/3/2012 9:46:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:
1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.
2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.
3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/3/2012 9:51:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 9:46:44 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:
1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.:

Allegedly... no way to confirm the veracity.

2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.:

Self-imposed importance... no way to confirm the veracity.

3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.:

Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity.

Which brings us right back to square one. It's unproveable.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/3/2012 9:57:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 9:51:17 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/3/2012 9:46:44 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:
1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.:

Allegedly... no way to confirm the veracity.
Merely meet God and interact with the power of the saints. Verified.


2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.:

Self-imposed importance... no way to confirm the veracity.
God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.


3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.:

Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity.
That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.
Wandile
Posts: 97
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2/3/2012 10:13:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 9:57:07 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/3/2012 9:51:17 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/3/2012 9:46:44 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/2/2012 5:51:09 PM, BrotherBuster wrote:
Where does the Bible get its authority?

The Bible gets its authority from:
1) Men who were empowered by God, through physical miracles to then write the Bible.:

Allegedly... no way to confirm the veracity.
Merely meet God and interact with the power of the saints. Verified.


2) Continually validated as accurate by the Church, which was empowered by God.:

Self-imposed importance... no way to confirm the veracity.
God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.


3) Personal experience that validates each article of faith contained within the Bible.:

Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.

Wow Gil that last part has earned a place in my signature. Nicely said :)
"Possibly deluded.... no way to confirm the veracity. That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?
Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under." - Gileandos

The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice - Proverb
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/3/2012 10:14:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 9:44:45 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:53:06 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:49:26 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
An axoim isn't circular.

Circular reasoning would be I am moving out BECAUSE I am moving out.

Axiomatic would be I am moving out

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.
2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.
3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.
Axiom:
All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.

The only way you can even form that axiom is to presume the laws of thought. Its circular.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/3/2012 10:59:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Merely meet God and interact with the power of the saints. Verified.:

I've been trying to set up a meeting with him since I was a child... He never answers. Ever. And as for his "saints":

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Gandhi

God imposed importance. Merely interact with God and the countless Theologians, Priests, Monks and Pastors who have verified the documents authenticity.:

So by that vaccuous rationale, I can assume the same God-imposed importance exists for the Mormon church and for Islam.

That is an extraordinary claim to suggest billions the world over and throughout history are deluded. Proof?:

Extraordinary claim, aye? Trillions upon trillions of people believed in what you would consider false gods from the Pantheon for millennia... That enough proof for you, sport?

Also if you actually believe these Billions of historical Christians are deluded, what gives you a warrant to special plead you are not equally self deluded within your own views? Sounds like self contradictory belief system you are under.:

It is possible that I'm deluded, just like I said they are [possibly] deluded. You sure like to cherry pick.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/3/2012 11:07:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/3/2012 10:14:51 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/3/2012 9:44:45 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:53:06 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/2/2012 9:49:26 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
An axoim isn't circular.

Circular reasoning would be I am moving out BECAUSE I am moving out.

Axiomatic would be I am moving out

Axioms ultimately presuppose 'something' to be certain, yet can not prove so. That is circular.

1 All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.
2 One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.
3 One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

An Axiom is not presupposed. It is evidential.
Axiom:
All physical things had a cause. It is not a presupposition as we have zillions of examples of caused physical things and not a single example of an uncaused physical thing.

The only way you can even form that axiom is to presume the laws of thought. Its circular.

Food for thought:

Laws of thought properly called logic, are based upon an evidentiary process.
Laws of logic are universal and self existent. We discover them through a process of philosophy. We do not presuppose logic works but we see the experiential evidence that it works.

These are not presuppositions.

Circle = to work around the same premise. Supporting premise with the premise.
Presupposition = to work back the mere statement/claim
Axiom = to work back to the evidentiary base