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Happy Mawlid un Nabi

bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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2/3/2012 8:39:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Happy Mawlid un Nabi to all muslim DDO users. To the non-muslims, this is when prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was born.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/4/2012 5:29:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Brother please listen to what I'm about to say. What you're doing is a bidah. Bidah means innovation in the religion. There is not a single hadith or instruction of the prophet to celebrate his birthday. The four rightly guided caliphs, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali all didn't celebrate Muhammad's birthday. None of the sahaba celebrated Muhammad's birthday and they are the people who loved the Prophet the most (pbuh). Many scholars gave fatwa about this and that it is wrong to do so.

Also in the Quran in Surah Al Imran Chapter 3 Verses 31-32 (in fatwa)
"Say (O Muhammad): ‘If you (really) love Allaah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Say: ‘Obey Allaah and the Messenger.' But if they turn away, then Allaah does not like the disbelievers."

So if you really love the prophet Muhammad, follow him. Celebrating his birthday isn't following him because he didn't do it.
Brother in Islam, it is ok if you didn't know but now you do and you should inform others who do so. Below is a fatwa about the celebration about Muhammad (pbuh) birthday and a comprehensive lecture on Bidah (the end talks about Mawlid). I ask Allah to guide me and you as well as all muslims on the straight path.

http://islamqa.info... (fatwa)
(lecture on Bidah in religion)
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/4/2012 7:18:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
He's a very well respected scholar in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Not anyone can just give fatwa (scholarly/islamic view), you must have your credentials and be recognized by other scholars. Their answers are based on the Quran and the hadeeth of the prophet, established tafseer (understandings of the Quran), other scholars etc etc. The base for fatwa are these things. The most important above all things are: the Quran, and authentic hadeeth of the prophet (pbuh). They are qualified because they studied these things thoroughly.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/4/2012 7:27:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 7:18:15 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
He's a very well respected scholar in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Not anyone can just give fatwa (scholarly/islamic view), you must have your credentials and be recognized by other scholars. Their answers are based on the Quran and the hadeeth of the prophet, established tafseer (understandings of the Quran), other scholars etc etc. The base for fatwa are these things. The most important above all things are: the Quran, and authentic hadeeth of the prophet (pbuh). They are qualified because they studied these things thoroughly.

Is there some form of council that accepts a scholars credentials as 'authentic'? There are no doubt many scholars do they make a unanimous decision or recognition of a mufti? What happens when scholars are half and half on a fatwa?
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/4/2012 7:48:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was doing some reading on the link you provided and it says that Muslims who imitate Christians in the act of venerating their religious leaders is considered (extremely) haraam. A haraam is basically a death sentence right? Would this mean that Muslims who venerate Muhammad via celebrating his birthday after having knowledge that such an act is extremely haraam it would be legally acceptable that the Muslim be killed?

http://www.islamqa.com...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/4/2012 8:05:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 7:48:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
I was doing some reading on the link you provided and it says that Muslims who imitate Christians in the act of venerating their religious leaders is considered (extremely) haraam. A haraam is basically a death sentence right? Would this mean that Muslims who venerate Muhammad via celebrating his birthday after having knowledge that such an act is extremely haraam it would be legally acceptable that the Muslim be killed?

http://www.islamqa.com...
No, that's not true at all. "Haram" is basically the Arabic word for "forbidden." In Islam, if something is haram it means it is forbidden for people, and some parts only apply to Muslims (though technically they do sin when they do forbidden things even as non-Muslims). For example, it is forbidden for a Muslim to consume alcohol in an Islamic state, but non-Muslims would be exempt from the ruling. Although the non-Muslim do sin when drinking alcohol, it would not be "haram" in legal terms, only religious.

Also, while Islamqa.com is a good site with Q/A, it provides a lot of answers based on Saudi Arab views, not Islamic. For example, face covering is recommended for women, not obliged, but covering the face is more cultural than religious. So the scholar(s) answering on that site tend to have certain biased opinions.
joneszj
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2/4/2012 8:31:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 8:05:01 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/4/2012 7:48:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
I was doing some reading on the link you provided and it says that Muslims who imitate Christians in the act of venerating their religious leaders is considered (extremely) haraam. A haraam is basically a death sentence right? Would this mean that Muslims who venerate Muhammad via celebrating his birthday after having knowledge that such an act is extremely haraam it would be legally acceptable that the Muslim be killed?

http://www.islamqa.com...
No, that's not true at all. "Haram" is basically the Arabic word for "forbidden." In Islam, if something is haram it means it is forbidden for people, and some parts only apply to Muslims (though technically they do sin when they do forbidden things even as non-Muslims). For example, it is forbidden for a Muslim to consume alcohol in an Islamic state, but non-Muslims would be exempt from the ruling. Although the non-Muslim do sin when drinking alcohol, it would not be "haram" in legal terms, only religious.

Also, while Islamqa.com is a good site with Q/A, it provides a lot of answers based on Saudi Arab views, not Islamic. For example, face covering is recommended for women, not obliged, but covering the face is more cultural than religious. So the scholar(s) answering on that site tend to have certain biased opinions.

I was asking not declaring. Are there different degrees then to the punishment of someone who has committed haram?

"Some people use the term (fatwa) to mean an Islamic death sentence imposed upon a person.[2] This is indeed one possibility among others (and would be in the case of something haram), though it is a rare use for a fatwā."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Not saying wiki is credible but it is why I am asking these questions. It basically says if something is haram then an Islamic death sentence would be imposed upon the person.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/4/2012 8:43:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 8:40:18 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
you're twisting things and asking too many questions....

Don't like to be questioned?
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joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/4/2012 8:49:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 8:40:18 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
you're twisting things and asking too many questions....

I am sorry I do not mean to be twisting anything. If I am I do ask that you correct me. I will sum my many questions into 1 main question: If a Muslim commits haram consistently with knowledge that the act is haram is the only appropriate response a death sentence if they do not repent?
baggins
Posts: 855
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2/5/2012 12:28:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 8:49:30 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/4/2012 8:40:18 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
you're twisting things and asking too many questions....

I am sorry I do not mean to be twisting anything. If I am I do ask that you correct me. I will sum my many questions into 1 main question: If a Muslim commits haram consistently with knowledge that the act is haram is the only appropriate response a death sentence if they do not repent?

As Mirza said: 'Haram' merely means forbidden. What you are asking is - What is the punishment if a Muslim does something 'forbidden'!

Naturally it depends. The punishment for murder is death in almost all cases. On other hand if someone is guilty of lying, that is none of the government's business and they can't really do anything about it (unless cheating or perjury is involved as well).
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
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2/5/2012 12:38:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
BTW, a very happy Milad-un-Nabi to all (though a bit belated)
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/5/2012 3:41:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/4/2012 8:31:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 2/4/2012 8:05:01 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/4/2012 7:48:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
I was doing some reading on the link you provided and it says that Muslims who imitate Christians in the act of venerating their religious leaders is considered (extremely) haraam. A haraam is basically a death sentence right? Would this mean that Muslims who venerate Muhammad via celebrating his birthday after having knowledge that such an act is extremely haraam it would be legally acceptable that the Muslim be killed?

http://www.islamqa.com...
No, that's not true at all. "Haram" is basically the Arabic word for "forbidden." In Islam, if something is haram it means it is forbidden for people, and some parts only apply to Muslims (though technically they do sin when they do forbidden things even as non-Muslims). For example, it is forbidden for a Muslim to consume alcohol in an Islamic state, but non-Muslims would be exempt from the ruling. Although the non-Muslim do sin when drinking alcohol, it would not be "haram" in legal terms, only religious.

Also, while Islamqa.com is a good site with Q/A, it provides a lot of answers based on Saudi Arab views, not Islamic. For example, face covering is recommended for women, not obliged, but covering the face is more cultural than religious. So the scholar(s) answering on that site tend to have certain biased opinions.

I was asking not declaring. Are there different degrees then to the punishment of someone who has committed haram?

"Some people use the term (fatwa) to mean an Islamic death sentence imposed upon a person.[2] This is indeed one possibility among others (and would be in the case of something haram), though it is a rare use for a fatwā."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Not saying wiki is credible but it is why I am asking these questions. It basically says if something is haram then an Islamic death sentence would be imposed upon the person.
As I said, haram means "forbidden." The legal and religious rulings vary. What is haram religiously means it is forbidden for mankind as a whole. What is haram legally is what is forbidden for certain people. It is as incorrect as possible that doing something haram means you are punished by death penalty. I don't know how anyone can say that. It would mean that a man who tells a little lie would be punished by death, or a Muslim who didn't pray one day would be punished by death. This is entirely wrong. A Muslim government isn't there to punish, but secure order for all people.
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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2/5/2012 5:29:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 4:48:26 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Celebrating Mawlid is Bidah and all Bidah is wrong. I explained on the first page....

You know, many Islamic Scholars practice Mawlid un Nabi?? Not every muslim is a Wahabbi
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/5/2012 5:38:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just because a scholar does something doesn't mean its right. I don't even know what is a wahabbi and all the other sects to be honest. The only thing it says in the Quran to call yourself is a muslim. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never said too celebrate his birthday and neither did his companions and the first three generations who loved him the most which indicates not to do so.

Its also not in Quran and hadith. Also it actually isn't known when Prophet Muhammad was actually born. The exact date of Prophet Muhammad's birth (pbuh) isn't known with certainty. The date chosen for Mawlid was actually his death.
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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2/5/2012 5:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 5:38:11 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Just because a scholar does something doesn't mean its right. I don't even know what is a wahabbi and all the other sects to be honest. The only thing it says in the Quran to call yourself is a muslim. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never said too celebrate his birthday and neither did his companions and the first three generations who loved him the most which indicates not to do so.

Its also not in Quran and hadith. Also it actually isn't known when Prophet Muhammad was actually born. The exact date of Prophet Muhammad's birth (pbuh) isn't known with certainty. The date chosen for Mawlid was actually his death.

How is celebrating our Prophet (pbuh) haram? Bid'ah, maybe. All we did is pray Salat al TAsbih, praising allah swt 300 times. Thats sooo haram right?
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/5/2012 5:45:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I never said anywhere that it was haram. I said it was 100% Bidah. Brother, I don't want to argue with you about this matter because I know that it is Bidah, and if you look at the Quran and hadith and life of prophet and first 3 gens you will come to no other conclusion other than it is Bidah. You can either take this information and tell others or continue to celebrate it (I strongly advocate the former). My job as muslim was to inform you and I did. The rest is with Allah azawajal....
baggins
Posts: 855
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2/5/2012 11:53:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 4:48:26 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
Celebrating Mawlid is Bidah and all Bidah is wrong. I explained on the first page....

I am aware that the early Muslims never celebrated Milad-un-Nabi (as it is known in India) which almost certainly makes it an innovation in faith.

On other hand, some of the festivals during the course of year, which I mark and on which I greet everyone includes Holi, Diwali, Christmas, India's Independence Day and Republic Day! It is mutual - as people from other faith join us on the occasion of the two Eid. Avoiding Milad-un-Nabi would be weird.

I still appreciate your effort in correcting us. Sticking to the pure aspects of Islam and avoiding Bidah is a worthy objective. Another worthy objective mentioned in the Quran is Hikmah.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/6/2012 10:40:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/5/2012 5:45:51 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
I never said anywhere that it was haram. I said it was 100% Bidah. Brother, I don't want to argue with you about this matter because I know that it is Bidah, and if you look at the Quran and hadith and life of prophet and first 3 gens you will come to no other conclusion other than it is Bidah. You can either take this information and tell others or continue to celebrate it (I strongly advocate the former). My job as muslim was to inform you and I did. The rest is with Allah azawajal....

An article in the link you provided calls it Haram.

"2 – Celebrating the birthday of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is an imitation of the Christians, because they celebrate the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him). Imitating them is extremely haraam. The hadeeth tells us that it is forbidden to imitate the kuffaar, and we are commanded to differ from them. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them" (narrated by Ahmad, 2/50; Abu Dawood, 4/314). And he said, "Be different from the mushrikeen" (narrated by Muslim, 1/222, no. 259) – especially with regard to things that are the symbols or rituals of their religion.

3 – Besides being bid'ah and an imitation of the Christians, both of which are haraam, celebrating the birthday of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a means that leads to exaggeration and excess in venerating him, which even goes as far as calling upon him (making du'aa' to him) and seeking his help, instead of calling upon Allaah, as happens now among many of those who observe the bid'ah of the Mawlid, when they call upon the Messenger instead of Allaah, and ask him for support, and sing qaseedahs (odes) of shirk praising him, like Qaseedat al-Burdah etc. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade going to extremes in praising him, as he said: "Do not extol as the Christians extolled the son of Maryam. For I am just His slave, so say, the slave of Allaah and His Messenger" (narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4/142, no. 3445; al-Fath, 6/551), i.e., do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians exaggerated in praising the Messiah and venerated him until they worshipped him instead of Allaah. Allaah forbade them to do that when he said (interpretation of the meaning):"

http://www.islamqa.com...

If something is Bidah (in the bad sense) is it automatically haram?
baggins
Posts: 855
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2/6/2012 11:04:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 10:40:19 AM, joneszj wrote:
If something is Bidah (in the bad sense) is it automatically haram?

'Bidah' means innovation. Among Muslims there is a major group called 'Salafis' who consider it very important that we practice Islam exactly the same was as companions of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) practiced Islam. They consider any innovation with regards to religion or religious practice as bad.

You might understand it with an analogy to Christians. Imagine there is a group which wants to practice faith exactly the same way as apostles of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) practiced faith. It would be interesting to know - would you consider their efforts praiseworthy?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/6/2012 11:21:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 11:04:21 AM, baggins wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:40:19 AM, joneszj wrote:
If something is Bidah (in the bad sense) is it automatically haram?

'Bidah' means innovation. Among Muslims there is a major group called 'Salafis' who consider it very important that we practice Islam exactly the same was as companions of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) practiced Islam. They consider any innovation with regards to religion or religious practice as bad.

You might understand it with an analogy to Christians. Imagine there is a group which wants to practice faith exactly the same way as apostles of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) practiced faith. It would be interesting to know - would you consider their efforts praiseworthy?

I apologize for intruding on the discussion, but I certainly would laud their efforts. Christianity does not exist in its true form today because the vast majority of the "teachings" that people follow are cherry-picked.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/6/2012 12:34:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/6/2012 11:04:21 AM, baggins wrote:
At 2/6/2012 10:40:19 AM, joneszj wrote:
If something is Bidah (in the bad sense) is it automatically haram?

'Bidah' means innovation. Among Muslims there is a major group called 'Salafis' who consider it very important that we practice Islam exactly the same was as companions of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) practiced Islam. They consider any innovation with regards to religion or religious practice as bad.

You might understand it with an analogy to Christians. Imagine there is a group which wants to practice faith exactly the same way as apostles of Christ Jesus (Peace on Him) practiced faith. It would be interesting to know - would you consider their efforts praiseworthy?

Christianity stresses a sense of "Christian Freedom" when it comes to practices and 'celebrations'. As long as those practices are not out right contrary to scripture they are allowed. The best way I can put it is there are (3) degrees. One would be what is practiced by all and clearly taught in scripture (like baptism, or communion). Another level would be things that can be interpreted in different ways that may or may not be clearly taught in scripture (speaking in tongues, infant baptism, modes of worship, instruments used in worship, etc.). Finally there would be things that out right are contrary to scripture depending on how one views it. For example I am a Protestant and think the Catholic practice of Inulgencies is heresy. I think any attempt to avoid 'progressivism' in church practice is praiseworthy.
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/6/2012 3:39:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah its true, all muslims should practice Islam exactly as prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions did. They are literally the best moral example and the people who exhibited the best character. Every muslim should strive to be like them. The problem with Salafi is that although what they're doing is good, they are causing divisions in Islam. The Quran only called believers muslims not salafi,hanafi,shaafi etc. The Glorious Quran says:

Surah Al An am Chapter 6 Verse 159
"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them of the truth of all that they did"

Stop asking too many questions..... This was just about Mawlid which isn't even the Prophet's actual Birthday since the exact date he was born isn't know. So to simplify Mawlid doesn't exist!!! I am pretty sure the date chosen was his death!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/6/2012 4:36:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with XX, any bid'ah is directly rejected and considered to be beyond the pales of Islam. There is a difference between culture and religion, though. Islam is not again say, Muslim avoiding doing certain non-obligatory acts that a culture might recognize as very improper. If you advise people not to do it, you aren't innovating anything in the sense that you ascribe it to Islam. But celebrating birthdays is not an Islamic act whatsoever, particularly not of holy figures.
Mirza
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2/7/2012 11:46:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/7/2012 2:50:50 PM, joneszj wrote:
So, what are the consequences of a Muslim who practices bidah?
I think that in this entire thread, you are mistaking legal and religious consequences. There are no legal consequences, except if a Muslim purposely spreads too much bid'ah and tries to harm Islam from within.

The religious consequence is sin, i.e., if a person knows that too many acts he performs are innovated, but persists in doing them. Much like if a Christian "innovates" the ruling that you should go to church every second Sunday.
bhatti1020
Posts: 216
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2/8/2012 8:02:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
OK XX. After looking at your link, then looking at what sheikhs Yusuf Estes, Bilal Philips and others said, I'll say that Mawlid is bid'ah. It's just that you wouldn't think it. In Pakistan, almost everyone celebrates it. Day off of schbool, big gatherings at masjid, etc.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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2/8/2012 8:50:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Now what you need to do is simply remind people that celebrating Mawlid is Bidah just like I did to you. It's your job as a Muslim to remind (especially relatives and family) your brothers in Islam if they are doing something wrong.