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Christian intellectual dishonesty

thett3
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2/16/2012 10:50:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is bothering me. In class just now, this girl was asking me why I don't believe in hell, and as I explained this ignorant Christian butts in and yells "the bible is very specific about hell existing!!" so I asked for specific verses, and she said she couldn't cite any. I also told her that just because the bible says it doesn't mean it's true. She FREAKED and informed me that I couldn't be a christian if I don't believe in bible inerrancy and literalism (not those specific words she probably doesnt know what those mean) and started bothering me about what church I go to. I said I'm not too much of a fan of organized religion, and then she informed me that I'm not Christian. So when I asked her to justify that, other Christians in the room butted in and told me to "stop talking about religion it only pisses everyone off" when ALL I was doing was answering questions that were asked of me. Idiots.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Microsuck
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2/16/2012 10:51:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
one reason why I'm no longer a Christian.
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Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

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thett3
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2/16/2012 10:55:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:51:44 AM, Microsuck wrote:
one reason why I'm no longer a Christian.

I can see why atheists think we're all brainwashed idiots. That's what about 99% of them are.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Microsuck
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2/16/2012 10:58:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:55:14 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/16/2012 10:51:44 AM, Microsuck wrote:
one reason why I'm no longer a Christian.

I can see why atheists think we're all brainwashed idiots. That's what about 99% of them are.

Yup, pretty much.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/16/2012 10:58:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Unresolved cognitive dissonance.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
thett3
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2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/16/2012 11:15:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everything that WE judge as being good and bad is a doing of God.

God just does, and it is what it is. It is true. God's will and word are truth, and God is equated with the will and word. God is truth, and sometimes the truth isn't what we desire.

This is why Jesus said, "blessed are the pure of heart, for they will see God". You have to abandon what you want for what is. Anything else is conceptual idolatry. You can even make an idol out of the concept of truth.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
popculturepooka
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2/16/2012 11:40:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:55:14 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 2/16/2012 10:51:44 AM, Microsuck wrote:
one reason why I'm no longer a Christian.

I can see why atheists think we're all brainwashed idiots.

I can't.

That's what about 99% of them are.

Nah.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tkubok
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2/16/2012 11:46:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

I dont see how you can believe an being who allows you to enter heaven simply by accepting a belief, and call him infinitely Just.
BangBang-Coconut
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2/16/2012 11:50:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://answers.yahoo.com...

I would say what you classmate did certainly qualifies as ignorance, but I wouldn't call it intellectual dishonesty. They where correct in saying that bible talks about hell, they just didn't know where.
Gileandos
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2/16/2012 12:42:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:50:14 AM, BangBang-Coconut wrote:
http://answers.yahoo.com...

I would say what you classmate did certainly qualifies as ignorance, but I wouldn't call it intellectual dishonesty. They where correct in saying that bible talks about hell, they just didn't know where.

Agreed.
Gileandos
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2/16/2012 12:47:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I want to point out your placing this child as the pinnacle of Christian viewpoint. I would recommend condemning or validating Christianity based upon its actual pinnacle.... theologians.
phantom
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2/16/2012 1:02:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe pretty much the same things as you, except I do go to church. This is one reason why I haven't told anyone irl about my belief changes yet. My Dad is a Bible scholar, believing in traditional inerrancy, views and such. His life is rooted in religion. Though I respect him allot as do others, I'm not sure how he would react.

I would just say it is impossible for me to believe in a God that sends billions of people to be tortured for all eternity, some of them never having heard of Christianity and many of them having good reasons not too believe, and if you can't respect my beliefs talking to you is useless.

Also always be respectful to their beliefs as well.

We mainly get our views of hell from Jesus. I don't think the Old Testament ever clearly says anything about the after life for nonbelievers. Jesus loved to use symbolism and talk in parables, thus it is reasonable to conclude He was using symbolism in certain verses that would seem to point to a fiery punishment for nonbelievers.

There are also a number of verses that do support your view of hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Mathew 10:28

btw I do believe in hell. I just don't think it is somewhere where nonbelievers spend eternity. In fact I really do not know what hell is, but verses such as the above I think points to the fact that there is some place called hell.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
thett3
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2/16/2012 4:46:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 1:02:52 PM, phantom wrote:
I believe pretty much the same things as you, except I do go to church. This is one reason why I haven't told anyone irl about my belief changes yet. My Dad is a Bible scholar, believing in traditional inerrancy, views and such. His life is rooted in religion. Though I respect him allot as do others, I'm not sure how he would react.

I would just say it is impossible for me to believe in a God that sends billions of people to be tortured for all eternity, some of them never having heard of Christianity and many of them having good reasons not too believe, and if you can't respect my beliefs talking to you is useless.

Also always be respectful to their beliefs as well.

We mainly get our views of hell from Jesus. I don't think the Old Testament ever clearly says anything about the after life for nonbelievers. Jesus loved to use symbolism and talk in parables, thus it is reasonable to conclude He was using symbolism in certain verses that would seem to point to a fiery punishment for nonbelievers.

There are also a number of verses that do support your view of hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Mathew 10:28

btw I do believe in hell. I just don't think it is somewhere where nonbelievers spend eternity. In fact I really do not know what hell is, but verses such as the above I think points to the fact that there is some place called hell.

Yeah, when I refer to "Hell" I refer to eternal conscious torment. I just hate how even discussing religion is taboo, how people COMPLETELY UNINVOLVED in my conversation feel the need to butt in. It's just annoying. And I doubt a single one of them could come up with a coherent argument for the existence of God, or even give me one shred of reasoning besides "faith". It's not that I think Christianity is without merit--I am a Christian after all, but it bothers me that this ignorance is so prevalent.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
tBoonePickens
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2/16/2012 4:55:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What id "intellectually dishonest"? This is such a dumb term. The term is itself "intellectually dishonest"!

Look, you are either honest or you're not, intellectual or otherwise. Plain & simple.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
thett3
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2/16/2012 5:04:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 4:55:28 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
What id "intellectually dishonest"? This is such a dumb term. The term is itself "intellectually dishonest"!

Look, you are either honest or you're not, intellectual or otherwise. Plain & simple.

Intellectual dishonesty is just more specific about where the dishonesty is taking place. I disagree that you're either honest or you're not, but thats a different debate
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
000ike
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2/16/2012 5:08:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 10:50:52 AM, thett3 wrote:
This is bothering me. In class just now, this girl was asking me why I don't believe in hell, and as I explained this ignorant Christian butts in and yells "the bible is very specific about hell existing!!" so I asked for specific verses, and she said she couldn't cite any. I also told her that just because the bible says it doesn't mean it's true. She FREAKED and informed me that I couldn't be a christian if I don't believe in bible inerrancy and literalism (not those specific words she probably doesnt know what those mean) and started bothering me about what church I go to. I said I'm not too much of a fan of organized religion, and then she informed me that I'm not Christian. So when I asked her to justify that, other Christians in the room butted in and told me to "stop talking about religion it only pisses everyone off" when ALL I was doing was answering questions that were asked of me. Idiots.

lol. You may not like this, but I agree with her.

Christianity holds the bible as a factual and moral authority, even though the Bible is just a series of unsubstantiated claims. So, to trust the Bible is the essence of a blind faith. Either you trust the Bible as a factual authority, ...or you do not. You cannot pick and choose what you will and will not believe within the Bible WITHOUT proving the errancy of what you discarded. It is impossible to prove hell's inexistence,....therefore, you're effectually discarding a portion of the Bible without actually having proof as to its inaccuracy,....meaning you do not trust the Bible as a factual authority.

Look at it this way, if you can reject hell but still call yourself a Christian,...then why can't I reject Jesus and still call myself a Christian?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Danielle
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2/16/2012 5:10:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

I can't take anyone who believes in biblical inerrancy seriously. Right off the bat I consider them intellectually dishonest (which is better than being flat out stupid, I suppose).

Out of curiosity, what about the personification of God do you disagree with -- or rather how do you describe or define God?
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tBoonePickens
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2/16/2012 5:11:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:04:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Intellectual dishonesty is just more specific about where the dishonesty is taking place. I disagree that you're either honest or you're not, but thats a different debate
Really?
1) Can you show me an example where someone is intellectually-dishonest and NOT dishonest? Answer: no.
2) Can you show me an example where someone is intellectually-honest and NOT honest? Answer: no.

Which of course then means that if you "disagree that you're either honest or you're not" then you must ALSO "disagree that you're either intellectually-honest or you're not."
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
OberHerr
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2/16/2012 5:13:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

Eh, your wrong on the "all-loving" part. First, he is just, and a just God can't just ignore crimes that have been committed.

He loves us, but, that does not mean he will allow us to enter Heaven imperfect. \

Example: Someone you love to death murders someone. You are the one that must decide their punishment. Would you just let them slide by, and let them off scot free? If you really were just, and if you really loved them, you would not.
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OberHerr
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2/16/2012 5:18:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:10:29 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

I can't take anyone who believes in biblical inerrancy seriously. Right off the bat I consider them intellectually dishonest (which is better than being flat out stupid, I suppose).

I've heard on here that the Bible apparently has many errors, but have yet to have anyone point them out.
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000ike
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2/16/2012 5:18:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:13:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

Eh, your wrong on the "all-loving" part. First, he is just, and a just God can't just ignore crimes that have been committed.

He loves us, but, that does not mean he will allow us to enter Heaven imperfect. \

Example: Someone you love to death murders someone. You are the one that must decide their punishment. Would you just let them slide by, and let them off scot free? If you really were just, and if you really loved them, you would not.

I hate how apologetics start picking and choosing what part of their religion they'll uphold. Religion is built on FAITH. Meaning that you have 0, nada, zilch, no clue whether any of it is actually true. You cannot therefore select what you will and won't believe since you do not have the tools, knowledge, or power to make such a specified decision. Either you have faith and you'll trust it in whole, or you do not have faith, and you will not trust it.

There is no picking and choosing in this equation.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Danielle
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2/16/2012 5:18:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:13:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Example: Someone you love to death murders someone. You are the one that must decide their punishment. Would you just let them slide by, and let them off scot free? If you really were just, and if you really loved them, you would not.

So what would you do, and what would God do? How does God punish?
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OberHerr
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2/16/2012 5:21:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:18:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/16/2012 5:13:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:01:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
I don't see how they believe in an all loving God who tortures people for all eternity. Their personification of God is not worthy of worship.

Eh, your wrong on the "all-loving" part. First, he is just, and a just God can't just ignore crimes that have been committed.

He loves us, but, that does not mean he will allow us to enter Heaven imperfect. \

Example: Someone you love to death murders someone. You are the one that must decide their punishment. Would you just let them slide by, and let them off scot free? If you really were just, and if you really loved them, you would not.

I hate how apologetics start picking and choosing what part of their religion they'll uphold. Religion is built on FAITH. Meaning that you have 0, nada, zilch, no clue whether any of it is actually true. You cannot therefore select what you will and won't believe since you do not have the tools, knowledge, or power to make such a specified decision. Either you have faith and you'll trust it in whole, or you do not have faith, and you will not trust it.

There is no picking and choosing in this equation.

Point is, when people say that Hell is not a reality, they are the ones picking and choosing. I believe ever word of that Bible, and thats it.
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OberHerr
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2/16/2012 5:22:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:18:50 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/16/2012 5:13:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Example: Someone you love to death murders someone. You are the one that must decide their punishment. Would you just let them slide by, and let them off scot free? If you really were just, and if you really loved them, you would not.

So what would you do, and what would God do? How does God punish?

Umm, clearly he would condemn them. But, because someone else, a guy you guys probably know as Jesus, took our place, that is no longer a problem for us. Assuming we accept that he did that.
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thett3
Posts: 14,378
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2/16/2012 5:26:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:08:47 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 2/16/2012 10:50:52 AM, thett3 wrote:
This is bothering me. In class just now, this girl was asking me why I don't believe in hell, and as I explained this ignorant Christian butts in and yells "the bible is very specific about hell existing!!" so I asked for specific verses, and she said she couldn't cite any. I also told her that just because the bible says it doesn't mean it's true. She FREAKED and informed me that I couldn't be a christian if I don't believe in bible inerrancy and literalism (not those specific words she probably doesnt know what those mean) and started bothering me about what church I go to. I said I'm not too much of a fan of organized religion, and then she informed me that I'm not Christian. So when I asked her to justify that, other Christians in the room butted in and told me to "stop talking about religion it only pisses everyone off" when ALL I was doing was answering questions that were asked of me. Idiots.

lol. You may not like this, but I agree with her.

Christianity holds the bible as a factual and moral authority, even though the Bible is just a series of unsubstantiated claims. So, to trust the Bible is the essence of a blind faith. Either you trust the Bible as a factual authority, ...or you do not. You cannot pick and choose what you will and will not believe within the Bible WITHOUT proving the errancy of what you discarded. It is impossible to prove hell's inexistence,....therefore, you're effectually discarding a portion of the Bible without actually having proof as to its inaccuracy,....meaning you do not trust the Bible as a factual authority.

Look at it this way, if you can reject hell but still call yourself a Christian,...then why can't I reject Jesus and still call myself a Christian?

What if I view Jesus as the personification of God, and the Bible is an attempted factual account of that, almost certainly with errors? I mean the fundamentals, like Jesus is the Son of God, I see how you can't reject, but things that go against Gods very nature (like Hell)...I just will not believe it.

You can reject Biblical innerrancy and still be Christian, I'm proof of that
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
OberHerr
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2/16/2012 5:27:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:24:55 PM, Danielle wrote:
Condemn them how?

To Hell?
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Danielle
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2/16/2012 5:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 5:21:26 PM, OberHerr wrote:
I believe ever word of that Bible, and thats it.

Do you believe the sun revolves around a flat earth?
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