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I follow Jesus

phantom
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2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/16/2012 11:25:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.
"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

"The New Testament gives no inkling of the teaching of Chalcedon. That council not only reformulated in other language the New Testament data about Jesus' constitution, but also reconceptualized it in the light of the current Greek philosophical thinking. And that reconceptualization and reformulation go well beyond the New Testament data" (A Christological Catechism, Paulist Press, p. 102).

" At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian…" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

"As far as the New Testament is concerned one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity" (Bernard Lohse, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, p. 38).

"No Apostle would have dreamed of thinking that there are three divine Persons" (Emil Brunner, Christian Doctrine of God, Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 226).

&

"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book." (Dr. J.J. Griesbach - Source: http://www.trends.ca...)

&

In the final analysis there is no evidence that the biblical character called "Jesus Christ" ever existed. As Nicholas Carter concludes in The Christ Myth: "No sculptures, no drawings, no markings in stone, nothing written in his own hand; and no letters, no commentaries, indeed no authentic documents written by his Jewish and Gentile contemporaries, Justice of Tiberius, Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Petronius Arbiter, Pliny the Elder, et al., to lend credence to his historicity." (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

&

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge. (Source: http://nobeliefs.com...)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/16/2012 11:34:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books of the 'Bible' I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.

*EDIT*

@Composor please form that into an argument. Ideally your own argument not just C/P. Also I will debate you on the historical existence of Jesus if you want.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/16/2012 11:47:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:34:39 PM, phantom wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books of the 'Bible' I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.

*EDIT*

@Composor please form that into an argument. Ideally your own argument not just C/P. Also I will debate you on the historical existence of Jesus if you want.

Are you talking about the mere existance of Jesus, or the existance of Jesus as outlined in the 4 Gospels?
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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2/16/2012 11:50:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books I treat as either man's opinions

I suppose our viewpoints are nearly perfectly close then. I just regard one more collection of books as a pure construct of man than you do.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/16/2012 11:53:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:34:39 PM, phantom wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books of the 'Bible' I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.

*EDIT*

@Composor please form that into an argument. Ideally your own argument not just C/P. Also I will debate you on the historical existence of Jesus if you want.
Story book jesus never literally existed outside of Story book land and the legitimate Historical evidence proves that!

I am not in the habit of ' speculating ' or offering baseless opinions, hence my Cut & Paste of those who have researched those various topics and agree with what the facts state, especially when measured against what your bible Story book claims!

IF you think you can legitimately re-write history, then by all means start a Debate & I'll participate no problem and see how you go!
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/16/2012 11:53:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:47:05 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:34:39 PM, phantom wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books of the 'Bible' I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.

*EDIT*

@Composor please form that into an argument. Ideally your own argument not just C/P. Also I will debate you on the historical existence of Jesus if you want.

Are you talking about the mere existance of Jesus, or the existance of Jesus as outlined in the 4 Gospels?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/17/2012 12:01:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:53:08 PM, Composer wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:34:39 PM, phantom wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books of the 'Bible' I treat as either man's opinions, (oftentimes valid but nevertheless prone to error) Christian history, revelations, or discardable.

Note that this is my current view. I have yet to fully evaluate some of the other books of the Bible, and those not included.

*EDIT*

@Composor please form that into an argument. Ideally your own argument not just C/P. Also I will debate you on the historical existence of Jesus if you want.
Story book jesus never literally existed outside of Story book land and the legitimate Historical evidence proves that!

I hope you realize we're talking about a historical Jesus which does not necessarily imply that he performed miracles rose from the dead and such.

I'm in 4 debates atm, so I don't want to start it right away.

I am not in the habit of ' speculating ' or offering baseless opinions, hence my Cut & Paste of those who have researched those various topics and agree with what the facts state, especially when measured against what your bible Story book claims!

I'm not in the habit of debating C/P arguments. I personally just don't like too. Also if you plan to do that in the debate I advise not too. Voters tend to be less inclined to vote for people who don't take the time to formulate their arguments in their own words.

IF you think you can legitimately re-write history, then by all means start a Debate & I'll participate no problem and see how you go!

Right
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/17/2012 12:03:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:50:03 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:
Therefore the gospels are my Bible. All other books I treat as either man's opinions

I suppose our viewpoints are nearly perfectly close then. I just regard one more collection of books as a pure construct of man than you do.

Yes, you're basically a Christian already :p
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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2/17/2012 12:09:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:

Yes, you're basically a Christian already :p

Well, even if I were to believe the Bible was true I wouldn't consider myself a Christian (as I'm sure you've gathered from our debate).
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/17/2012 12:12:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:09:30 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:

Yes, you're basically a Christian already :p

Well, even if I were to believe the Bible was true I wouldn't consider myself a Christian (as I'm sure you've gathered from our debate).

True, but that all depends on what parts you view as true and whether you believe it is absolute truth.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/17/2012 12:18:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
wasn't he pro slavery?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DakotaKrafick
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2/17/2012 12:20:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/16/2012 11:17:33 PM, phantom wrote:

True, but that all depends on what parts you view as true and whether you believe it is absolute truth.

I suppose. But I would find absolutely no reason to believe another's opinion on the matter when everything I know and feel contradicts it.

For instance (as much as I'd hate to prove Godwin's law so soon), Hitler had his fair share of followers, and if I read a compilation of their journals describing all of the things he did during WWII, I would still find him evil no matter how many of them thought and wrote otherwise.
16kadams
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2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:20:49 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:18:22 AM, 16kadams wrote:
wasn't he pro slavery?

Not in the way you're probably thinking. But, yes.

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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2/17/2012 12:34:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:18:22 AM, 16kadams wrote:
"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

I said "yes", what more do you want? lol
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

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wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/17/2012 12:57:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.

No, it doesn't.

It's not advocating violence.

Thats the basic idea.

Just because it doesn't support outright rebellion, does not mean it supports slavery.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Physik
Posts: 686
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2/17/2012 4:31:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:57:46 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.

No, it doesn't.

It's not advocating violence.

Thats the basic idea.

Just because it doesn't support outright rebellion, does not mean it supports slavery.

But the only trait that prevents something from being slavery is the possibility of rebellion.
"Just don't let them dissuade you. Stick to your beliefs no matter what and you'll be fine." - ConservativePolitico, the guy that accused me of being close-minded.

"We didn't start slavery, they themselves started it. When the white man first got to Africa they had already enslaved themselves, they just capitalized on an opportunity." - ConservativePolitico

"The Bible to me is a history book and requires very little faith to believe in." - ConservativePolitico
wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/17/2012 8:04:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 12:57:46 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.

No, it doesn't.

It's not advocating violence.

Thats the basic idea.

Just because it doesn't support outright rebellion, does not mean it supports slavery.

Yes, it does. The only way for slaves to escape is through rebellion, which is not necessarily violent. When a child posts an unflattering facebook comment about her father, that is considered rebellion. Similarly, if a slave purposefully does his job ineffectively, flees, or kills his master, he has rebelled. Since rebellion is the only surefire way to escape, and Jesus is telling men not to escape, he is condoning and promoting slavery.
wingalbrave
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2/17/2012 8:04:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
In addition, the Bible explicitly promotes slavery in Exodus. Tell me, OberHerr, are you going to sell your daughter into slavery for a good price?
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/17/2012 8:08:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 8:04:00 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:57:46 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.

No, it doesn't.

It's not advocating violence.

Thats the basic idea.

Just because it doesn't support outright rebellion, does not mean it supports slavery.

Yes, it does. The only way for slaves to escape is through rebellion, which is not necessarily violent. When a child posts an unflattering facebook comment about her father, that is considered rebellion. Similarly, if a slave purposefully does his job ineffectively, flees, or kills his master, he has rebelled. Since rebellion is the only surefire way to escape, and Jesus is telling men not to escape, he is condoning and promoting slavery.

No, the only way for slaves to escape is A) Rebellion B) Getting Freed, which wasn't that uncommon is Jesus' day.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/17/2012 8:11:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 8:08:31 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 8:04:00 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:57:46 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:54:57 AM, wingalbrave wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
At 2/17/2012 12:28:44 AM, 16kadams wrote:

"And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn't prepared and doesn't carry out those instructions, will be severely punished." luke 12:47

odd...

It's not pro-slavery, but it is saying that you shouldn't just rebel.

Slaves have the right to rebel against their "masters". Saying otherwise condones and promotes slavery.

No, it doesn't.

It's not advocating violence.

Thats the basic idea.

Just because it doesn't support outright rebellion, does not mean it supports slavery.

Yes, it does. The only way for slaves to escape is through rebellion, which is not necessarily violent. When a child posts an unflattering facebook comment about her father, that is considered rebellion. Similarly, if a slave purposefully does his job ineffectively, flees, or kills his master, he has rebelled. Since rebellion is the only surefire way to escape, and Jesus is telling men not to escape, he is condoning and promoting slavery.

No, the only way for slaves to escape is A) Rebellion B) Getting Freed, which wasn't that uncommon is Jesus' day.

Can I have evidence that it was not uncommon for slaves to be freed?
wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/17/2012 9:41:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 9:37:33 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
Clue: http://en.wikipedia.org...

That does not tell us what percentage were freed. Also, even if the practice was common, it does not matter because some individual slaves were treated harshly and were never freed. They had the right to rebel.
johnnyboy54
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2/17/2012 10:08:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Slavery in the Bible is a lot different then it was during modern times. It was more like indentured servitude, where people sold themselves into servitude to pay off debts for a certain period of time. Race, sex, and ect. had no bearing on their status as slaves. They servants could still own property, marry and enter into legally binding contracts. In reality it was more like an employment contract.

That is not to say that there wasn't slaves taken by force. However the Bible condemns the type of slavery that everyone here seems to be talking about. Here is the verse.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" Exodus 21:16 English Standard Version

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death" Exodus 21: 16 New American Standard Bible

That should put an end to the debate...
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
wingalbrave
Posts: 201
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2/17/2012 10:15:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/17/2012 10:08:28 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Slavery in the Bible is a lot different then it was during modern times. It was more like indentured servitude, where people sold themselves into servitude to pay off debts for a certain period of time. Race, sex, and ect. had no bearing on their status as slaves. They servants could still own property, marry and enter into legally binding contracts. In reality it was more like an employment contract.

That is not to say that there wasn't slaves taken by force. However the Bible condemns the type of slavery that everyone here seems to be talking about. Here is the verse.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" Exodus 21:16 English Standard Version

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death" Exodus 21: 16 New American Standard Bible

That should put an end to the debate...

That is out of context.

Full passage: If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

So, anyone but the Israelites can be a slave according to the bible.