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Atheists and agnostics...

gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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2/18/2012 10:33:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

Do your morals dictate that you don't perform this ritual?

Let's say the ritual is praying. If you don't believe in God, will it really hurt you to pray with your loved one, considering that it would make their life more enjoyable?

On the other hand, if it is some sort of ritual that involves selling the soul or cutting yourself and bleeding on a stone tablet, then you might consider the harm/discomfort greater than the benefit to your loved one.

In other words, I don't know that I could say either way without knowing the details.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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2/18/2012 10:58:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

Jackson basically explained it. Also, I don't understand what you mean: "unable to conduct it"?

Morality is not tied in any way to atheism. It allows the free development of morality and allows you to choose some form of morality for yourself, but does not push your morals in any direction.

Also, regarding the friend one (I've heard this before but as a wife/girlfriend/etc.), if they're a friend of mine, or a gf/wife/whatever, one of the things I'd want is tolerance. Someone who is intolerant, I simply cannot stand. So I doubt many would get into that situation.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/18/2012 3:47:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I've prayed with loved ones at bedsides. I've chanted and sung with them at services. I may not have believed in any of it, but it's also no skin off my back.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/19/2012 8:23:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I would do it. Unless it requires me to believe for it to work.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/19/2012 9:27:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I probably would try to help him with whatever that issue was, since rituals don't do anything, there would be no point in doing it and it really wouldn't help.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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2/19/2012 10:02:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

Depends on the ritual. If its praying, then yes.
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/20/2012 12:13:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

Morality doesn't dictate anything. If it really is that important to his/her life, I'm fine with engaging in some ritual with them.

In exchange, I get to choose the next movie we see.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/20/2012 7:39:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I would be extremely offended and refuse just as they would be if I asked them to scream "FVCK YOU GOD!" at the sky while masturbating and shaking their fist angrily.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/20/2012 7:43:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I'd throw tea in my granny's face (10 points for anyone who knows what that's from).

Here's a fact: as an atheist, I don't believe in whatever BS is being peddled. But my "morality," as it were, requires that if I can help this person, and it makes them feel better, then why not? So long as they understand that I don't believe in it, and aren't going to be concerned because of my disbelief, I'll do and say what they want.

If they have a problem with the fact that I don't believe, then eff 'em. I won't change my beliefs to suit theirs if it's that required, but I'm more than willing to play along if it they believe it'll help them. How this contradicts my "morality," or my "theology," I don't know.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/20/2012 7:44:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/20/2012 7:39:26 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I would be extremely offended and refuse just as they would be if I asked them to scream "FVCK YOU GOD!" at the sky while masturbating and shaking their fist angrily.

lol I am put in this situation a lot. It makes me uncomfortable and I would rather not do it. I try to explain it to my mother like this: would she feel comfortable having to pray to a hindu god simply because she's at a place where hindus are the majority? Definitely not.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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2/20/2012 10:24:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I wouldn't mind. I'm just helping out a friend.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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2/20/2012 10:35:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When my religious kin joins us for a meal, I say, "Hey, just because we don't say grace, that doesn't mean you can't."

On the other hand, when they try something like, "God loves you," I come back with, "Yours is an ugly religion."

Not sure whether that answers the question.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/20/2012 10:44:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/20/2012 7:44:00 PM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/20/2012 7:39:26 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I would be extremely offended and refuse just as they would be if I asked them to scream "FVCK YOU GOD!" at the sky while masturbating and shaking their fist angrily.

lol I am put in this situation a lot. It makes me uncomfortable and I would rather not do it. I try to explain it to my mother like this: would she feel comfortable having to pray to a hindu god simply because she's at a place where hindus are the majority? Definitely not.

It doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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MarquisX
Posts: 925
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2/21/2012 12:29:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/20/2012 7:39:26 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I would be extremely offended and refuse just as they would be if I asked them to scream "FVCK YOU GOD!" at the sky while masturbating and shaking their fist angrily.

That's not nearly the same thing.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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2/22/2012 4:24:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

I generally don't have a problem conforming to rituals, any more than taking kids to Disneyland means an endorsement of Tinkerbell. Rituals are real in the sense that they provide comfort to people who need support. Atheists could probably benefit from inventing more non-religious rituals.

I don't want to participate in the elaborate rituals reserved for believers. That is inappropriate because it mocks the belief. Disagreement is fine, but mocking is not.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/22/2012 4:30:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/22/2012 4:24:59 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I don't want to participate in the elaborate rituals reserved for believers. That is inappropriate because it mocks the belief. Disagreement is fine, but mocking is not.

It doesn't really 'mock' the belief though...

For example.. On christmas/easter and whatnot I go to church... speak the prayers.. take the eucharist.. kneel.. and all that other stuff..

It would be Mockery if I did that with the intention of Belittling the practices... Not when I do them to make my mom happy and keep from being in a socially awkward position.

Now... I do belittle the practices from time to time... like on here mainly.. but I'm not attempting to do so when I partake in them.. I'm just going along with things.. not Mocking in the slightest.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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2/22/2012 11:11:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/22/2012 4:30:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
It would be Mockery if I did that with the intention of Belittling the practices... Not when I do them to make my mom happy and keep from being in a socially awkward position.

Now... I do belittle the practices from time to time... like on here mainly.. but I'm not attempting to do so when I partake in them.. I'm just going along with things.. not Mocking in the slightest.

Yes, your point is well taken. I agree. I was thinking of doing something like pretending to be a Muslim or a Mormon to gain entry into areas deemed sacred by the respective religions.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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2/23/2012 10:51:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

As an agnostic, I would participate wholeheartedly. The inability to believe in the tenets of a faith have absolutely nothing to do with respecting a person's wishes that you perform ceremony or uphold a tradition on behalf of that faith. Besides, this is my close friend. I'm not being hurt by performing this religious service, nor do I have any pre-existing dedication to another religion that prohibits me from it. I just wonder whether or not it's acceptable for a person who lacks faith to be partaking in it. I'd love to be included.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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2/23/2012 10:54:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To expand on that, when one of my religious friends suffered the loss of a loved one, I stayed with her, prayed with her, consoled her in ways that were in alignment with her faith. I went through the motions of speaking to God. I didn't believe any of it, but in that moment, that's now what's important. What's important is doing that for my friend.

I don't see any reason why an atheist or an agnostic would feel uncomfortable with anything like this unless the discomfort is in not knowing how to perform the ritual. I prefer to think of myself as "of all Religion and of none" XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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2/23/2012 10:56:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:53:06 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Would you permit your hypothetical children to belive in Santa Clause after they become teenagers?

Personally, I intend on training my kids to argue from a very young age. In lie of allowances and whatnot, I'll have them write for everything they want. Provided they can convince me, I'll provide them with whatever they desire.

That being said, if my hypothetical children believe in Santa Claus as teenagers, they'd have a pretty good reason. I'd listen to them.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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2/23/2012 10:59:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:51:21 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

As an agnostic, I would participate wholeheartedly. The inability to believe in the tenets of a faith have absolutely nothing to do with respecting a person's wishes that you perform ceremony or uphold a tradition on behalf of that faith. Besides, this is my close friend. I'm not being hurt by performing this religious service, nor do I have any pre-existing dedication to another religion that prohibits me from it. I just wonder whether or not it's acceptable for a person who lacks faith to be partaking in it. I'd love to be included.

Hey, you won the election, by the way. Too bad you weren't here for the impeachment trial =\
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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2/23/2012 11:06:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can't be serious. Did you see my platform?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/24/2012 9:52:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 10:16:36 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
Situation: You have a very close friend/ father/ mother or sibling or something that special who is deeply religious. He knows your religious inclination but asks you to 'please' engage in some ritual that will ( according to him) help him in his life.

What does your morality dictate you to do? You do not believe the ritual will help him in any way, but he does. Your refusal will make him unable to conduct it.

What....need an antecedent to the final it. However ritual is merely show ergo no moral impediment to the performance. (all other requirements having been satisfied)