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Prayer shows a Lack of True Faith!

Composer
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2/23/2012 2:16:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Prayer is actually the sad resort of a disbeliever or the act of a doubter that needs / seeks / requests confirmation or appeals for their god to intercede / cause to achieve what these doubters want to eventuate!

ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time & every time ', however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!
Paradox_7
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2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 2:16:08 AM, Composer wrote:
Prayer is actually the sad resort of a disbeliever or the act of a doubter that needs / seeks / requests confirmation or appeals for their god to intercede / cause to achieve what these doubters want to eventuate!

ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time & every time ', however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!

You're absolutely right.

Only problem - God tells us how to pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom,
the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever.

Amen.

We pray that HIS will be done. The thing about us humans - is we are continuously missing the point. He doesn't give us what we want, he gives us what we need. As a sceptical athiest - you expect to get what you agree with. God doesn't give 2 sh*ts what you agree with. He made you. You are eternally bound to his will; your every defiance is according to his placn - and he laughs at you.

Prov 1: 24-33
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. ...

We aren't sh*t - Christians are a problem, we know the truth and still f*ck things up. I don't know if you saw the video i posted earlier, but Christianity is done... We are saved by belief, and the belief we didnn't even come up with; God actually had to give it to us...

Another reason we are tolerant of others (or should be)
Romans 2:1-29
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ...

He's talking to Christians, not non-beleivers here... We are sh*t. We didn't choose God, he Chose US. We(I) do not deserve his mercy..

So yes any true belever would, but we aren't. We are so incapable - God had to send his own son to do it for us. THEN, he had to pick the people that would believe. He did everything.. and wether you like it or not, this is his house.. and he runs this sh*t. It may seem a like a long time to you, but he's outside of time and to him he already came back..we're just waiting to catch up.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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2/23/2012 2:49:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 2:46:28 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Don't feed the troll

sorry i couldnt help myself..

...deep breathe...

wooosaah
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
johnnyboy54
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2/23/2012 2:53:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 2:49:52 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/23/2012 2:46:28 AM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
Don't feed the troll

sorry i couldnt help myself..

...deep breathe...

wooosaah

(:
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/23/2012 3:47:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 2/23/2012 2:16:08 AM, Composer wrote:
Prayer is actually the sad resort of a disbeliever or the act of a doubter that needs / seeks / requests confirmation or appeals for their god to intercede / cause to achieve what these doubters want to eventuate!

ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time & every time ', however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!

You're absolutely right.

Only problem - God tells us how to pray:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom,
the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever.

Amen.

We pray that HIS will be done. The thing about us humans - is we are continuously missing the point. He doesn't give us what we want, he gives us what we need. As a sceptical athiest - you expect to get what you agree with. God doesn't give 2 sh*ts what you agree with. He made you. You are eternally bound to his will; your every defiance is according to his placn - and he laughs at you.

Prov 1: 24-33
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. ...

We aren't sh*t - Christians are a problem, we know the truth and still f*ck things up. I don't know if you saw the video i posted earlier, but Christianity is done... We are saved by belief, and the belief we didnn't even come up with; God actually had to give it to us...

Another reason we are tolerant of others (or should be)
Romans 2:1-29
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ...

He's talking to Christians, not non-beleivers here... We are sh*t. We didn't choose God, he Chose US. We(I) do not deserve his mercy..

So yes any true belever would, but we aren't. We are so incapable - God had to send his own son to do it for us. THEN, he had to pick the people that would believe. He did everything.. and wether you like it or not, this is his house.. and he runs this sh*t. It may seem a like a long time to you, but he's outside of time and to him he already came back..we're just waiting to catch up.
All proving immediately one fundamental thing -

Prayer shows your preferred Story book god's self contradicting commands -

i.e. Pray to me, but in Praying, that shows a lack of Faith that I know and do what's best for you and you need confirmation or want me to change, to do what you want!

e.g. Heal the sick, destroy your enemies, save yourself or family etc. from diseases etc. etc.

&

Let's also examine this self-contradicting none-sense you quoted -

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
What name would that be that must be revered and why wasn't it told to those lacking in faith that resorted to prayer according to Story book jesus' self-contradicting command to Pray; when Faith is supposed to be all that is necessary that your preferred god knows best (allegedly not after all!)

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Your Kingdom come,
2000 years (allegedly) and still waiting, LOL!

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
your will be done,
Now you pray your preferred god to enforce its own will, LOL!

Do you believe it will do otherwise and enforce some one else's?

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
on earth as in heaven
Apparently it couldn't even maintain stability in its own kingdom (i.e. naughty Satan & 1/3rd angels rebelled against this alleged ' loving god ' LOL! (cf. Rev. 12:4) KJV Story book

&

When down here before (apparently?) it couldn't (despite its Omnipotence) even stop Adam from feeling ' alone ' (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book, so a fraiil and mortal Woman was made to repair the loneliness your god made Adam experience despite its alleged ' all loving ' presence, LOL! (cf. 1 John 4:8) KJV Story book

And you want more of the same here again, LOL!


At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Give us today our daily bread.
Moving on, you are told to ask for daily bread, even if some people don't like or eat bread. Also, he said that "man shall not live by bread alone..." (e.g. Luke 4:4) KJV Story book, so its instructions and appeals in prayer was at best only half-hearted, LOL!

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Forgive us our sins,
I thought you self-acclaimed jesus' believers already claimed it has ' Paid the price/debt and died for our sins (cf. Gal. 1:4) KJV Story book, but didn't die for long either apparently? LOL!)

How did your alleged Immortal Fully god manage to literally die at all?

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
as we forgive those who sin against us.
There can't be ANY Sins because you claimed your jesus ' took them away, ' LOL! . -

. . . . Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:9) KJV Story book

Obviously that's another christian lie!

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lead us not into temptation,
Surely if your preferred god is tempting us, He knows beforehand exactly how we will react to such temptation! That being so, what's the point of praying about it, are we going to change His mind through prayers? Remember, He said that "I change not."

IF anything else is tempting us then it was put there by your preferred god - Col. 1:16 that takes credit for creating absolutely everything. Hence no one else (Including your naughty Satan & Demons) can also Create it!

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
but deliver us from evil.
Again your preferred god takes the resonsibility & Credit for creating everything, that would therefore incude ALL EVIL!

At 2/23/2012 2:45:11 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
For the kingdom,
the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever.
Now a final ego boost for your Jealous god, LOL! (e.g. Exod. 20:5) KJV Story book

Next!
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/23/2012 6:09:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 2:16:08 AM, Composer wrote:
Prayer is actually the sad resort of a disbeliever or the act of a doubter that needs / seeks / requests confirmation or appeals for their god to intercede / cause to achieve what these doubters want to eventuate!

ANY genuine believer would trust in Faith alone that whatever their preferred god has planned for e.g. them or their loved ones or their friends or even their enemies is pre-determined and always correct because allegedly their preferred god always gets it ' right, first time & every time ', however appeals such as Prayer, actually refutes that concept!

LOL and the phone is for those who can not speak, banks are for those with no money and only the crazy have no doubt.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
Zetsubou
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2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/25/2012 1:19:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God already knows who will pray and who will not.:

Which makes prayer functionally useless and questionable as to whether or not someone truly has freewill.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:24:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).

You know... I know my wife very well. Most of the time, I know exactly what she is thinking and feeling. I know what she wants to do and the places she wants to go.

But... I still enjoy talking to her :)

The best prayers come from just wanting to talk to God. I tell Him about my problems(yeah, He knows, but I think He likes talking to me just like I like talking to Him), I tell Him that I appreciate my life and everything in it(again, He knows, but have you ever appreciated someone saying 'Thank you' even when you already knew they were thankful?).
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Zetsubou
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2/25/2012 1:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:19:37 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
God already knows who will pray and who will not.:

Which makes prayer functionally useless and questionable as to whether or not someone truly has freewill.
If there is no free will there is no choice. You can't choose to pray; God made you a prayer or a non-prayer. I critical point is that YOU don't know your own fate so a fatalistic philosophy cannot be followed. Try and pray, as if you could choose.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
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2/25/2012 1:31:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.
Free will doesn't exist.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:32:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:31:41 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.
Free will doesn't exist.

Yes it does.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:35:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

Bad analogy, you don't know he will take the cheetos you just assume he will based on the past. If God is all knowing he isn't basing assumptions on the past, he knows with 100% certainty every move you will make, since you have no other option but to do what he knows you will do, then you have no free will because you can't chose any other option than what God knew you would do.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:36:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:31:41 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.
Free will doesn't exist.
I'm already aware of this.
Zetsubou
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2/25/2012 1:37:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:32:43 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:31:41 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Free will doesn't exist.

Yes it does.
The idea of an omniscient entity is irreconcilable with the existance of free will. If a being knows all things he knows the actual conclusion to every choice that will ever be made.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:39:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:35:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

Bad analogy, you don't know he will take the cheetos you just assume he will based on the past.

Experiences with a person are a method of getting to know how they think, what they like, etc... You can know a person, their thought processes, and what they are going to do in a certain situation. Yours must be a bleak world where it is impossible to know people and you have no choice.

If God is all knowing he isn't basing assumptions on the past, he knows with 100% certainty every move you will make, since you have no other option but to do what he knows you will do,

You are mixing up cause and effect. Put it this way: God can see the future. God sees that tomorrow you will do 'X'. God knows you will do 'X' because He saw you do it. You don't do 'X' because God knows you will. Cause and effect my friend.

then you have no free will because you can't chose any other option than what God knew you would do.

Again, cause and effect.

Here is a better analogy for you. I have a die with 6 sides, and all 6 sides are '1'. I know that if I roll the die, I will get a '1'. So, does the die show '1' because I know it will?

No, foreknowledge is knowledge of a future event, but it isn't the cause of it.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:41:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.

It's an analogy. Yes, it is possible for me to be wrong because I make my decisions as an imperfect being, with limited experience with my son. However, at this stage, it's the closest thing I can get to being 100% sure about what my son likes.

If you look at the reasoning behind the analogy, you can see the difference between cause and effect. My knowing he will pick Cheetos isn't the reason he picks it.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/25/2012 1:45:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:41:49 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.

It's an analogy. Yes, it is possible for me to be wrong because I make my decisions as an imperfect being, with limited experience with my son. However, at this stage, it's the closest thing I can get to being 100% sure about what my son likes.

If you look at the reasoning behind the analogy, you can see the difference between cause and effect. My knowing he will pick Cheetos isn't the reason he picks it.

Do you know the meaning of the word option? I means you have the ability to chose either A or B, however if God knew you would chose A and his knowledge is absolute then it's not possible for you to chose B (therefore, you have no ability to chose B because it's not possible). This means that A was the only option because if you chose B, God would be wrong which can't happen if his knowledge is absolute.

Free will cannot exist if an all knowing god exists, there is no way around this.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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2/25/2012 1:52:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:45:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:41:49 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.

It's an analogy. Yes, it is possible for me to be wrong because I make my decisions as an imperfect being, with limited experience with my son. However, at this stage, it's the closest thing I can get to being 100% sure about what my son likes.

If you look at the reasoning behind the analogy, you can see the difference between cause and effect. My knowing he will pick Cheetos isn't the reason he picks it.

Do you know the meaning of the word option? I means you have the ability to chose either A or B, however if God knew you would chose A and his knowledge is absolute then it's not possible for you to chose B (therefore, you have no ability to chose B because it's not possible). This means that A was the only option because if you chose B, God would be wrong which can't happen if his knowledge is absolute.

Let me fix this for you.

'however if God knew you would choose A, and his knowledge is absolute, then you aren't going to choose B.

It's not impossible for you to choose B, you're just not going to choose it. For every situation you are going to run in in your life, you will make some kind of decision. You will make a choice. You will never choose the option that you aren't going to choose. It doesn't mean that the other choice was impossible, just that your thought processes will cause you to choose one over the other.

Again, foreknowledge about the choice you are going to make is an effect based on you making the choice(the cause).

Free will cannot exist if an all knowing god exists, there is no way around this.

You still don't understand cause and effect. Choosing 'A' over 'B' doesn't mean 'B' was impossible.

If I flip a coin, and it turns up heads, then I know that that particular coin flip turned up heads. Was my knowledge that it turned up heads what caused it to do so? No! Knowledge is based off of something happening, it doesn't determine it to happen.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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2/25/2012 1:53:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The only difference between knowledge before the fact and knowledge after the fact is when the knowledge is gained. Neither type of knowledge is the cause of the thing happening.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/25/2012 1:56:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:52:12 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:45:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:41:49 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.

It's an analogy. Yes, it is possible for me to be wrong because I make my decisions as an imperfect being, with limited experience with my son. However, at this stage, it's the closest thing I can get to being 100% sure about what my son likes.

If you look at the reasoning behind the analogy, you can see the difference between cause and effect. My knowing he will pick Cheetos isn't the reason he picks it.

Do you know the meaning of the word option? I means you have the ability to chose either A or B, however if God knew you would chose A and his knowledge is absolute then it's not possible for you to chose B (therefore, you have no ability to chose B because it's not possible). This means that A was the only option because if you chose B, God would be wrong which can't happen if his knowledge is absolute.

Let me fix this for you.

'however if God knew you would choose A, and his knowledge is absolute, then you aren't going to choose B.

It's not impossible for you to choose B, you're just not going to choose it. For every situation you are going to run in in your life, you will make some kind of decision. You will make a choice. You will never choose the option that you aren't going to choose. It doesn't mean that the other choice was impossible, just that your thought processes will cause you to choose one over the other.

Again, foreknowledge about the choice you are going to make is an effect based on you making the choice(the cause).

Free will cannot exist if an all knowing god exists, there is no way around this.

You still don't understand cause and effect. Choosing 'A' over 'B' doesn't mean 'B' was impossible.

If I flip a coin, and it turns up heads, then I know that that particular coin flip turned up heads. Was my knowledge that it turned up heads what caused it to do so? No! Knowledge is based off of something happening, it doesn't determine it to happen.

"Knowledge is based off of something happening"

But you said God was all knowing before anything happened...You just contradicted yourself

"It's not impossible for you to choose B"

Yes it is if God is all knowing. If God knew I was going to chose A then there is no possible way I could go for B unless God was not all knowing.

It seems you don't understand the concepts behind choices and possibilities.

You still haven't provided any logical argument.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:57:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:53:17 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
The only difference between knowledge before the fact and knowledge after the fact is when the knowledge is gained. Neither type of knowledge is the cause of the thing happening.

Who said anything about causes?
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/25/2012 1:59:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:53:17 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
The only difference between knowledge before the fact and knowledge after the fact is when the knowledge is gained. Neither type of knowledge is the cause of the thing happening.

The huge flaw in your logic:

If an all knowing god exists then he CHOSE to foresee me choosing A, this means he pre-determined every move I made meaning I have no free will. If God didn't choose to foresee me choosing A then God himself does not have free will because he had no choice.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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2/25/2012 2:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:56:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:52:12 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:45:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:41:49 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:37:21 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:30:40 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:25:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:16:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/25/2012 12:16:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Praying is useless. If God is all knowing then he already knows what you want and has already made up his mind whether he wants to grant you it or not (assuming he exists in the context of this discussion).
But you do not, so you pray regardless. Knowing that your life was determined before your creation do things as if you had free will.

God already knows who will pray and who will not.

Lets say God created me knowing I would chose Red instead of Blue, this means I cannot chose Blue because if I did that would mean God was wrong and that can't be. This means Red was the only possible option, meaning I never really had a choice, thus, free will does not exist.

Foreknowledge isn't the same thing as predetermination.

If I walk up to my son right now, with a bag of Cheetos and a bag of Wheat Thins, I know he will take the Cheetos. Does that mean that he doesn't have free will? No, it just means I know him well enough to know what he is going to choose, not that I made the choice for him via my knowledge.

It's the same with God. He knows us perfectly, so He knows what we will choose to do, but the choice is still ours.

What if your son is sick of cheetos and decided to switch up one day? You can't say you know what your son would do in the same way God (assuming he exists for the sake of discussion) knows what we would do.

It's an analogy. Yes, it is possible for me to be wrong because I make my decisions as an imperfect being, with limited experience with my son. However, at this stage, it's the closest thing I can get to being 100% sure about what my son likes.

If you look at the reasoning behind the analogy, you can see the difference between cause and effect. My knowing he will pick Cheetos isn't the reason he picks it.

Do you know the meaning of the word option? I means you have the ability to chose either A or B, however if God knew you would chose A and his knowledge is absolute then it's not possible for you to chose B (therefore, you have no ability to chose B because it's not possible). This means that A was the only option because if you chose B, God would be wrong which can't happen if his knowledge is absolute.

Let me fix this for you.

'however if God knew you would choose A, and his knowledge is absolute, then you aren't going to choose B.

It's not impossible for you to choose B, you're just not going to choose it. For every situation you are going to run in in your life, you will make some kind of decision. You will make a choice. You will never choose the option that you aren't going to choose. It doesn't mean that the other choice was impossible, just that your thought processes will cause you to choose one over the other.

Again, foreknowledge about the choice you are going to make is an effect based on you making the choice(the cause).

Free will cannot exist if an all knowing god exists, there is no way around this.

You still don't understand cause and effect. Choosing 'A' over 'B' doesn't mean 'B' was impossible.

If I flip a coin, and it turns up heads, then I know that that particular coin flip turned up heads. Was my knowledge that it turned up heads what caused it to do so? No! Knowledge is based off of something happening, it doesn't determine it to happen.

"Knowledge is based off of something happening"

But you said God was all knowing before anything happened...You just contradicted yourself

God knows what will happen in the future, and I have my own opinion as to how. Call it foresight, He knows what will happen cause He has seen it happen. It's still knowledge based off of something happening, just before it happens.

"It's not impossible for you to choose B"

Yes it is if God is all knowing. If God knew I was going to chose A then there is no possible way I could go for B unless God was not all knowing.

Forget God right now. I'm just talking about choice. Something will happen to you and you will choose 'A' over 'B'. That doesn't mean 'B' is an impossible choice, just that you will choose 'A'.

With God back in the equation, you could choose 'B', but He would know that. If you are going to choose 'A' He will know that too. His knowledge is based off of your choosing. Do you have any idea what cause and effect is and how it works? If you choose A, He knew it because it was what you were going to choose. If you choose B, He knew it because it was what you were going to choose. Either way, His knowledge is the effect based on the cause of your choice.

It seems you don't understand the concepts behind choices and possibilities.

You still haven't provided any logical argument.

Another analogy. You work for the lottery. You hear the big cheese of the lottery whatever group talking about how he rigged it to pick the numbers 10 20 30 40 50 60. You now know what the lottery numbers are going to be tomorrow.

Does your knowledge determine the lottery numbers?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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2/25/2012 2:04:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 1:57:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/25/2012 1:53:17 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
The only difference between knowledge before the fact and knowledge after the fact is when the knowledge is gained. Neither type of knowledge is the cause of the thing happening.

Who said anything about causes?

The whole argument is that God's knowledge is the cause of our choices.

My argument is that God's knowledge is an effect of our choices.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13