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Do commandments and threats negate free will?

GreatestIam
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2/23/2012 9:00:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.

To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

Regards
DL
wiploc
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2/23/2012 9:32:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:00:41 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish.

You are confusing freedom with free will. If you were encased in concrete you would have no freedom, but you would still have free will. Free will happens, so to speak, in the head. It is the ability to decide what you like and don't like, to decide what you want to think about, to decide whether to be happy or sullen. Stuff like that.

Commandments and threats do not affect free will.
joneszj
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2/23/2012 10:59:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:37:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
There is no free will in the Bible.

http://www.vexen.co.uk...

Kinda correct. There is no libritarian free will explicitly mentioned in the Bible. It has to be presumed. The only place I know of where the term free will is used is in Philemon 1:14 but its used to contrast compulsion and not in the way free will is touted around today. Augustine as well as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. all saw a form of compatiblistic free will in the Bible. At least that is how I have understood things.
GreatestIam
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2/23/2012 11:51:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:32:01 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:00:41 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish.

You are confusing freedom with free will. If you were encased in concrete you would have no freedom, but you would still have free will. Free will happens, so to speak, in the head. It is the ability to decide what you like and don't like, to decide what you want to think about, to decide whether to be happy or sullen. Stuff like that.

Commandments and threats do not affect free will.

They certainly do in that short clip do they not?

So why does God give them if they have no effect?
Just to hear himself talk?

If you follow your God's commands you are not exercising free will. You may be forced to comply with actions you morally object to.
I E. When God told the ancients to smash the heads of babies on rocks.

To do something while under threat is called duress and the courts recognise that contracts signed under duress are not valid precisely due to lack of free will of the agent.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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2/23/2012 12:06:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:37:54 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
There is no free will in the Bible.

http://www.vexen.co.uk...

This is true yet most Christians seem to ignore much of what their founders thought.

The vast majority I speak to think they have it even as scriptures show that It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That's who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL
logicrules
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2/23/2012 1:21:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:00:41 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.

To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?


NO
GreatestIam
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2/24/2012 12:20:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In the case of choosing God and heaven or sin and hell, how many do you think are insane enough to choose hell and is that threat not the trigger what is making up your mind for you to choose heaven?

Or are you just saying there is no God in the first place?

If not, show your logic trail. A plain old no says nothing.

Regards
DL
logicrules
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2/24/2012 12:22:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 12:20:21 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
In the case of choosing God and heaven or sin and hell, how many do you think are insane enough to choose hell and is that threat not the trigger what is making up your mind for you to choose heaven?

Or are you just saying there is no God in the first place?

If not, show your logic trail. A plain old no says nothing.

Regards
DL

Short answer....how many Muslims are there?
logicrules
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2/24/2012 12:25:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 12:20:21 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
In the case of choosing God and heaven or sin and hell, how many do you think are insane enough to choose hell and is that threat not the trigger what is making up your mind for you to choose heaven?

Or are you just saying there is no God in the first place?

If not, show your logic trail. A plain old no says nothing.

Regards
DL

Long answer. You are begging the question. When asked most choose heaven, when asked to act most chose themselves. When asked to Judge, what will we choose?
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.
logicrules
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2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.
royalpaladin
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2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.
logicrules
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2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God and seek Love, The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)
logicrules
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2/25/2012 7:03:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.

Well then that is wrong. Society i not the standard. Mental deficiency not the measure, faculties and culpability are. FYI.....recent development to lock up the mentally ill or "deficient". Than the neo cons...It is morally reprehensible. So yes, Free Will is essential for responsibility.
Composer
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2/26/2012 3:04:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God
Empty Speculation!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
and seek Love,
My wife, family and friends give me all the love I need in abundance, conversely your god is an abject failure! (See #failed_gods shown below)

Whom/whatsoever is responsible for this world and its evil content, diseases, viruses, Tsunamis, Floods etc. deserves my legitimate contempt and I give it abundently!

Especially abundently to the biblical ones the various Cults portray and the various bibles depict that claims responsibility for it all! (cf. Col. 1:16) bible Story books

#failed_gods e.g. From the very beginning of the Story book bible, this god failed miserably; because despite its alleged prowess in all ' loving, omniscient and all knowing self acclaim ' it couldn't even establish a healthy and loving relationship with its very first human (Adam) whom it only made to feel ' alone ' and this Story book god's alleged ' all consuming love ' was an absolute failure and a Woman was needed where Story book gods alleged love failed miserably cf. 18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Also it's alleged ' infinite love ' failed to impress about 1/3rd of its own heavenly angels and they rebelled and rejected this biblical gods ' love ' that was obviously yet again lacking and a failure!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)
Before I comment further about this portion, what is ' US society? '.
logicrules
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2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 3:04:47 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God
Empty Speculation!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
and seek Love,
My wife, family and friends give me all the love I need in abundance, conversely your god is an abject failure! (See #failed_gods shown below)

Whom/whatsoever is responsible for this world and its evil content, diseases, viruses, Tsunamis, Floods etc. deserves my legitimate contempt and I give it abundently!

Especially abundently to the biblical ones the various Cults portray and the various bibles depict that claims responsibility for it all! (cf. Col. 1:16) bible Story books

#failed_gods e.g. From the very beginning of the Story book bible, this god failed miserably; because despite its alleged prowess in all ' loving, omniscient and all knowing self acclaim ' it couldn't even establish a healthy and loving relationship with its very first human (Adam) whom it only made to feel ' alone ' and this Story book god's alleged ' all consuming love ' was an absolute failure and a Woman was needed where Story book gods alleged love failed miserably cf. 18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Also it's alleged ' infinite love ' failed to impress about 1/3rd of its own heavenly angels and they rebelled and rejected this biblical gods ' love ' that was obviously yet again lacking and a failure!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)
Before I comment further about this portion, what is ' US society? '.

Actually it was a paraphrase of a Summa considered a Primary Source b any who have a passing understanding of Theology. Those absent principles and a personal moral construct must defer to the masses. We now know you have no understanding of theology, and little, if any of law, and non of the principle of right and wrong. US society is the entirety of the US as codified in the principles common to all in the US. The term presumes a knowledge of sociology, I apologize I should have known you would lack the basics.
JaxsonRaine
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2/26/2012 4:16:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.




Do you really think we have it figured out that well?

If you go by science, we can only account for somewhere around 10% of all the matter and energy around us. Meaning we know there is a ton of matter/energy everywhere around, but we can't see/feel or otherwise detect it.

Do you know how this matter and energy affects the body? Do you know how it relates to the conscious mind?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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2/28/2012 8:45:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/26/2012 3:04:47 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God
Empty Speculation!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
and seek Love,
My wife, family and friends give me all the love I need in abundance, conversely your god is an abject failure! (See #failed_gods shown below)

Whom/whatsoever is responsible for this world and its evil content, diseases, viruses, Tsunamis, Floods etc. deserves my legitimate contempt and I give it abundently!

Especially abundently to the biblical ones the various Cults portray and the various bibles depict that claims responsibility for it all! (cf. Col. 1:16) bible Story books

#failed_gods e.g. From the very beginning of the Story book bible, this god failed miserably; because despite its alleged prowess in all ' loving, omniscient and all knowing self acclaim ' it couldn't even establish a healthy and loving relationship with its very first human (Adam) whom it only made to feel ' alone ' and this Story book god's alleged ' all consuming love ' was an absolute failure and a Woman was needed where Story book gods alleged love failed miserably cf. 18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Also it's alleged ' infinite love ' failed to impress about 1/3rd of its own heavenly angels and they rebelled and rejected this biblical gods ' love ' that was obviously yet again lacking and a failure!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)
Before I comment further about this portion, what is ' US society? '.

At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
Actually it was a paraphrase of a Summa considered a Primary Source b any who have a passing understanding of Theology.
In no way does that refute your alleged ' loving god ' failed to impress even Adam whom it made to feel ' all alone ' and a Woman was required to give Adam the love your alleged omniscient god didn't know how to provide to fulfill Adam's need for love!

Your god was a failure in many ways, including this way!

Theology is the study of 100% human Story books and the legitimate evidence a single one of them is the words of ANY god(s) given to some men remains a constant zero! Your Cults preferred Theologians only demonstrated how little they actually understood!

At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
Those absent principles and a personal moral construct must defer to the masses. We now know you have no understanding of theology, and little, if any of law, and non of the principle of right and wrong. US society is the entirety of the US as codified in the principles common to all in the US. The term presumes a knowledge of sociology, I apologize I should have known you would lack the basics.
I accept your apologies for your empty speculations!

Much better luck next times!
logicrules
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2/29/2012 7:49:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/28/2012 8:45:58 PM, Composer wrote:
At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/26/2012 3:04:47 AM, Composer wrote:
At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God
Empty Speculation!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
and seek Love,
My wife, family and friends give me all the love I need in abundance, conversely your god is an abject failure! (See #failed_gods shown below)

Whom/whatsoever is responsible for this world and its evil content, diseases, viruses, Tsunamis, Floods etc. deserves my legitimate contempt and I give it abundently!

Especially abundently to the biblical ones the various Cults portray and the various bibles depict that claims responsibility for it all! (cf. Col. 1:16) bible Story books

#failed_gods e.g. From the very beginning of the Story book bible, this god failed miserably; because despite its alleged prowess in all ' loving, omniscient and all knowing self acclaim ' it couldn't even establish a healthy and loving relationship with its very first human (Adam) whom it only made to feel ' alone ' and this Story book god's alleged ' all consuming love ' was an absolute failure and a Woman was needed where Story book gods alleged love failed miserably cf. 18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Also it's alleged ' infinite love ' failed to impress about 1/3rd of its own heavenly angels and they rebelled and rejected this biblical gods ' love ' that was obviously yet again lacking and a failure!

At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)
Before I comment further about this portion, what is ' US society? '.

At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
Actually it was a paraphrase of a Summa considered a Primary Source b any who have a passing understanding of Theology.
In no way does that refute your alleged ' loving god ' failed to impress even Adam whom it made to feel ' all alone ' and a Woman was required to give Adam the love your alleged omniscient god didn't know how to provide to fulfill Adam's need for love!

Your god was a failure in many ways, including this way!

Theology is the study of 100% human Story books and the legitimate evidence a single one of them is the words of ANY god(s) given to some men remains a constant zero! Your Cults preferred Theologians only demonstrated how little they actually understood!

At 2/26/2012 3:57:34 AM, logicrules wrote:
Those absent principles and a personal moral construct must defer to the masses. We now know you have no understanding of theology, and little, if any of law, and non of the principle of right and wrong. US society is the entirety of the US as codified in the principles common to all in the US. The term presumes a knowledge of sociology, I apologize I should have known you would lack the basics.
I accept your apologies for your empty speculations!

Much better luck next times!

LOL you assume I think the bible in errant, i do not. Adam is not a name. Nice story though. In fact, the ancient philosophies offer more reason than you, I suggest you read them.
GreatestIam
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2/29/2012 11:08:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.

All that those clips seem to be saying is that the software, the subconscious, does the bulk of the thinking before engaging the hardware, the hand, to move.

I understand the situation but fail to see the problem.

At the end, it is still a free will choice.
Determinism is at work sure. In making a choice possible. It does not determine that choice. The anthropic principle is at work, determinism, but so is the uncertainty principle.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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2/29/2012 11:14:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.

Yes but not for the crime. It is for being mentally deficient.

They are found innocent for the actual crime thanks to mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent. Without this, the defendant is always found innocent or better said, not culpable for a crime.

One must recognize that they are guilty before being found guilty. If not they are just found to be victims of insanity.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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2/29/2012 11:17:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/25/2012 7:00:00 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:14:37 PM, Composer wrote:
IF so called christians truly believe in having a Free-Will, then why do they keep Freely choosing to keep sinning?

LOL it is the nature of the human person to desire God and seek Love, The choice for sin is always done believing it Good. (see US society)

It is my belief that 95% of so called believers do not truly believe.
This following confirms for me that most are only in their religions for tradition and culture.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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2/29/2012 11:23:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 7:49:54 AM, logicrules wrote:

LOL you assume I think the bible in errant, i do not. Adam is not a name. Nice story though. In fact, the ancient philosophies offer more reason than you, I suggest you read them.

From what I understand, Adam is a name.
What is not as name is adam.
It means society or civilization. It includes men and women.

Regards
DL
logicrules
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2/29/2012 6:03:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 11:23:13 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 2/29/2012 7:49:54 AM, logicrules wrote:

LOL you assume I think the bible in errant, i do not. Adam is not a name. Nice story though. In fact, the ancient philosophies offer more reason than you, I suggest you read them.

From what I understand, Adam is a name.
What is not as name is adam.
It means society or civilization. It includes men and women.

Regards
DL

Since there was no upper case classification, the word is adam. What is more likely, first was the story "God created Humans, all mankind," which then got embellished, added to, and combined with other stories to include talking snakes, a special tree with fruit (couldn't be apples) and a woman who "had to have it". or There are talking snakes, God took 6 days and was so tired he had to rest, and was so pissed that he messed it up he kicked um out. Im goin with God created us. Rest is added for effect.
popculturepooka
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2/29/2012 8:34:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.

It's actually routinely accepted by most involved in the free will debate at the highest levles that if hard determinism holds moral accountability/responsibility doesn't. Talk of a person "deserving" punishment would have to go out the window as nonsensical. Punishment would have to be (on the hard determinist model) for deterrence or reformation.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
logicrules
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2/29/2012 9:26:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 8:34:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.

It's actually routinely accepted by most involved in the free will debate at the highest levles that if hard determinism holds moral accountability/responsibility doesn't. Talk of a person "deserving" punishment would have to go out the window as nonsensical. Punishment would have to be (on the hard determinist model) for deterrence or reformation.

Fallacious reasoning...petitio.
popculturepooka
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2/29/2012 9:33:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 9:26:57 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/29/2012 8:34:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/24/2012 8:19:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:27:38 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/24/2012 3:24:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Free will doesn't exist, If you picked a random number in your head you are tricked into believing "I could have picked another one if I wanted, so I have free will", in reality that was the only number you could have picked and was determined by biological aspects of the brain.


Cool, ill just do whatever i feel like. No need for law because there is no responsibility. Its just how my brain works.

So the answer is to claim that free will is necessary for accountability? That is not true. Mentally deficient people are imprisoned in facilities if they commit crimes, for example.

It's actually routinely accepted by most involved in the free will debate at the highest levles that if hard determinism holds moral accountability/responsibility doesn't. Talk of a person "deserving" punishment would have to go out the window as nonsensical. Punishment would have to be (on the hard determinist model) for deterrence or reformation.

Fallacious reasoning...petitio.

How is it begging the question?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
logicrules
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2/29/2012 9:58:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

Fallacious reasoning...petitio.

How is it begging the question?

Took ya awhile to look it up. Read your post, rmove all subordinate clauses....I am sure youll figure it out.