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Muslim attacked atheist, then released

Gileandos
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2/23/2012 8:30:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
News Story:
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com...

The judges ranting is playable on this website as well.

Nuts and bolts of the story:
Muslim attacks an atheist for being a Zombie Muhammad during a Halloween Parade in Mechanicsburg PA. The motivation of the Muslim was to defend his religion.

-The interesting point is the Muslim was obviously guilty, confessed to the police officer of the assault and was on videotape.
-The judge was also Muslim and released the attacker declaring him not guilty.
-The judge further rebuked the atheists for being a "dufus", as the atheist testified that Muhammad rose from the dead in the Koran. This atheist confuses Christianity and Islam in his ridicule. I agree with the Judge's assessment here.
-The Judge further stated that the Muslim religion is a part of the essence of a Muslim's being, so the Muslim was valid in his attack, whereas the Christian merely practices his religion and is not allowed to defend his religion with force.

First the funny part:
This atheist is a great talking point about the sophomoric understanding from the atheistic camp about the tenets of any religion. A church on every street corner and this atheist actually confuses Muhammad with Jesus. (DDO has a typically better informed atheist)

Second the scary part:
The judge actually released an obvious criminal based upon a religious bias. It is Agreed the Judge needs to be tried himself of criminal neglect and removed from his bench, but the more devastating reasoning is "why" he felt the Muslim was valid in his attack.

The judge merely presumed the Muslim religion to be inherently within the Muslim and the Christian's religion to be merely one of outward practice. Have gave no evidence or reason for this bias but just asserted it.

Where has intellectualism gone? Why is bias so rampant in our society that once claimed the idea of objectivity?

We see the Chairmen of the ethics committee over Geophysics panels having to step down due to ‘ethics' violations.
Politicians can rampantly make accusations against anyone without any proof.
Atheists can walk around misrepresenting and ridiculing any religion they want, while making countless character assassination attempts, all deemed valid.
Muslims are allowed to feel a supposed superiority with no evidence, supported by the media.

All of these things are legal, maybe, but are they sane? (I disagree with the legality of a Muslims inherent 'right' to harm in the defense of their opinions about religion.)

Can we put out a sincere call to reinstate actual reason, logic and intellectualism overlain with valor, virtue and honesty.
Gileandos
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2/23/2012 8:48:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 8:36:32 PM, Mirza wrote:
"Love your neighbor, not because he is a Christian, but because you are." A quote I read near a church on Google Maps.

I am uncertain how that addressed the OP.

To address your statment: We as Christians certainly love the pedophile, murderer, and rapist. However, we are also certain to ensure they have very tiny and very restricted living quarters as they perpetuate evil. I personally affirm the removal of 'any' living quarters for these overtly evil acts.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/23/2012 8:50:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 8:48:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 8:36:32 PM, Mirza wrote:
"Love your neighbor, not because he is a Christian, but because you are." A quote I read near a church on Google Maps.

I am uncertain how that addressed the OP.
It shouldn't, it addresses your apparent hatred of certain people.

To address your statment: We as Christians certainly love the pedophile, murderer, and rapist. However, we are also certain to ensure they have very tiny and very restricted living quarters as they perpetuate evil. I personally affirm the removal of 'any' living quarters for these overtly evil acts.
No you don't.
Gileandos
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2/23/2012 8:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 8:50:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/23/2012 8:48:36 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 8:36:32 PM, Mirza wrote:
"Love your neighbor, not because he is a Christian, but because you are." A quote I read near a church on Google Maps.

I am uncertain how that addressed the OP.
It shouldn't, it addresses your apparent hatred of certain people.

Please do not confuse my love of the innocent, my love for protecting the innocent and my love of justice for the wronged as hatred toward the guilty. My love is perfectly distributed based upon the merit of the individual.


To address your statment: We as Christians certainly love the pedophile, murderer, and rapist. However, we are also certain to ensure they have very tiny and very restricted living quarters as they perpetuate evil. I personally affirm the removal of 'any' living quarters for these overtly evil acts.
No you don't.

No I do not what?
Gileandos
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2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
Lordknukle
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2/23/2012 9:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.

Are you implying that 1/2 are raped?

lololololololol
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Mirza
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2/23/2012 9:38:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
No religions claims that it can prevent evil from occurring. The reason these religions even claim to have been revealed by God is because they help guiding people and protecting them from evil. They didn't come to remove all evil.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 9:39:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.

1/2 of that is merely an unfounded accusation.
1/2 of that has nothing to do with religion but secular values.

The point was that Men were dogmatically and verifiable more evil with religion being absent.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:41:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:39:33 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.

1/2 of that is merely an unfounded accusation.
1/2 of that has nothing to do with religion but secular values.

The point was that Men were dogmatically and verifiable more evil with religion being absent.

Do you deny that the Bible explicitly promotes rape?

This has nothing to do with secular values. The Inquisition, domestic violence by redneck trash men, Salem Witch trials, etc. have all occured in spite of religion. This means that religion does not cure anything.

Which half was unfounded?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:42:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:38:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
No religions claims that it can prevent evil from occurring. The reason these religions even claim to have been revealed by God is because they help guiding people and protecting them from evil. They didn't come to remove all evil.

Religion is supposed to be a conduct for moral action. The fact that religious people commit these atrocities indicates that religion is an ineffective tool with which to combat injustice.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 9:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:38:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
No religions claims that it can prevent evil from occurring. The reason these religions even claim to have been revealed by God is because they help guiding people and protecting them from evil. They didn't come to remove all evil.

I agree with Mirza here. Islam is an attempt or guide for people to move away from evil.

Islam has performed far far far far far less atrocities than secularism. I have no desire to live under such a moral system and their regimes, but secularism is of paramount concern.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:42:31 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:38:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
No religions claims that it can prevent evil from occurring. The reason these religions even claim to have been revealed by God is because they help guiding people and protecting them from evil. They didn't come to remove all evil.

I agree with Mirza here. Islam is an attempt or guide for people to move away from evil.

Islam has performed far far far far far less atrocities than secularism. I have no desire to live under such a moral system and their regimes, but secularism is of paramount concern.

Yeah, places in which women are stoned to death if they do not bow to their male masters are clearly better than regimes that promote women's rights.

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics. If you had it your way, women would still be in the kitchen and in your bedroom.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 9:55:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:41:07 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:39:33 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.

1/2 of that is merely an unfounded accusation.
1/2 of that has nothing to do with religion but secular values.

The point was that Men were dogmatically and verifiable more evil with religion being absent.

Do you deny that the Bible explicitly promotes rape?

Of course I do.

This has nothing to do with secular values. The Inquisition, domestic violence by redneck trash men, Salem Witch trials, etc. have all occured in spite of religion. This means that religion does not cure anything.

The people themselves are devoid of 'religion'. It is their secular values that caused half of the atrocities that you listed, arguably all but the witch trials.

Redneck's do not beat their wives because Jesus told them to do it for example.

The witch trials you could argue a misfire of religious justice but certainly not a misfire of religion.


Which half was unfounded?

*sigh
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2012 9:56:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

And looking back on the previous century (the one with increased amounts of secularization) I wouldn't be too quick to equate all moral progress with secular ethics and all moral regress to religious ethcs.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 9:59:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
royalpaladin
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2/23/2012 9:59:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 10:01:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

At the same time you had religion fighting such interpretations and actions concerning slavery.
on the flip side Utilitarian secularism was the motivation for Nazi eugenics, racism at its height.

I agree with Popculture. You are drawing distinctions that are simply petulant.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/23/2012 10:03:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:01:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

At the same time you had religion fighting such interpretations and actions concerning slavery.
on the flip side Utilitarian secularism was the motivation for Nazi eugenics, racism at its height.

The Nazis were religious (they believed in a syncretic religion that combined ancient Aryan religion with Christianity) and they promoted religious violence against Jews, homosexuals, and socialists. It was not a product of secular ethics; rather, it was a product of religious hatred.
I agree with Popculture. You are drawing distinctions that are simply petulant.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2012 10:05:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

Yep, they did use their religion to justify moral atrocities; so, why, exactly can you not see that people have used their religion to also justify morally upstanding actions?

Your arguments are getting worse and worse. The abolitionists, for example, appealed to equality, yes. But they believed that equality to be grounded in the theological premise that we are all God's children and that all humans were created in God's image. Their ethics were inseperable from their religious beliefs.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
royalpaladin
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2/23/2012 10:08:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:05:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

Yep, they did use their religion to justify moral atrocities; so, why, exactly can you not see that people have used their religion to also justify morally upstanding actions?

Your arguments are getting worse and worse. The abolitionists, for example, appealed to equality, yes. But they believed that equality to be grounded in the theological premise that we are all God's children and that all humans were created in God's image. Their ethics were inseperable from their religious beliefs.

Not all abolitionists were motivated by religious ethics; many were motivated by secular ethics. Regardless, slavery was buttressed by Christianity.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2012 10:08:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:05:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

Yep, they did use their religion to justify moral atrocities; so, why, exactly can you not see that people have used their religion to also justify morally upstanding actions?

Your arguments are getting worse and worse. The abolitionists, for example, appealed to equality, yes. But they believed that equality to be grounded in the theological premise that we are all God's children and that all humans were created in God's image. Their ethics were inseperable from their religious beliefs.

You remind of how when one of the New Atheists (I forget which; maybe it was hitchens?) tried to deny that Martin Luther King Jr's religious beliefs motivated his civil rights advocacy. Because, y'know, "religion poisons everything" so it couldn't possibly have contributed to some good. :)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/23/2012 10:15:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:08:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 10:05:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

Yep, they did use their religion to justify moral atrocities; so, why, exactly can you not see that people have used their religion to also justify morally upstanding actions?

Your arguments are getting worse and worse. The abolitionists, for example, appealed to equality, yes. But they believed that equality to be grounded in the theological premise that we are all God's children and that all humans were created in God's image. Their ethics were inseperable from their religious beliefs.

Not all abolitionists were motivated by religious ethics; many were motivated by secular ethics. Regardless, slavery was buttressed by Christianity.

"Not all?" And? Yeah, there were prominent secularists (atheists/agnostics/deists) in the mix. How does this take away from my point? The religious abolitionists (which were the majority) explicitly motivated their opposition to slavery on religious grounds. The secularists obviously didn't. So? It still throws a wrench in that whole "all moral progress is due to secular ethics" narrative you got going on over there...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 10:16:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:59:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

- Men should fulfill their appropriate role by fighting and providing for their families, not abandoning them. In Israel rather than allowing the men to abandon unwanted women, they were allowed to sell them. It was a cultural provision. This was allowed but not extolled.
- This is a cultural system of protection of women rather than evil slavery as you consider it. Women had a role in society and that was the function of 'a women'. Men also had a role in society. Submission to this role should be honored rather than attacked.
- Another example of this is the allowance of divorce because of the evil of Israel's men not because God liked the idea of it.

Malachi ch 2:
13 Another thing you do: You flood the LORD's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer looks with favor on your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. 14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring.[d] So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.
16 "The man who hates and divorces his wife," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "does violence to the one he should protect,"[e] says the LORD Almighty.
So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful.

You accuse religion here but lets not ignore some secular examples- A secular concept would be Nazi's utilitarian use of women in breeding homes. Far worse to my mind.

Communistic ideals of women as slaves to the state.


10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)



Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

This is a prophecy of an evil culture coming to conquer not God saying 'Do this'.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/23/2012 10:19:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 10:03:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 10:01:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:57:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:53:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:44:18 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

You may boast about all of the advances that the West has made, but that was all due to secular ethics.

Uh, ok. How do you account for the fact that the many of the first abolitionists and anti-apartheid and civil rights leaders were religious and explicitly appealed to their religious ethics in order to argue against slavery and apartheid and the like? It really isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is. (i.e. religion = bad)

Many of the supporters of slavery and segregation also used religion to justify their positions. They preached that slavery was permissible because the Africans were descendants of Ham, and the children of Ham had been condemned to serve the other races forever. They also converted the slaves in order to teach them "respect for their masters" and to make them docile so that they would not revolt. The people who stood against these atrocities were actually motivated by equality and not by their religious beliefs.

At the same time you had religion fighting such interpretations and actions concerning slavery.
on the flip side Utilitarian secularism was the motivation for Nazi eugenics, racism at its height.

The Nazis were religious (they believed in a syncretic religion that combined ancient Aryan religion with Christianity) and they promoted religious violence against Jews, homosexuals, and socialists. It was not a product of secular ethics; rather, it was a product of religious hatred.
I agree with Popculture. You are drawing distinctions that are simply petulant.

- Nazi's rejected all of Christianity due to its founders being Jews. Ad Nauseum.
- Sure paganism created Nazism. How silly of me. Do you actually plan to be honest?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/23/2012 10:19:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/23/2012 9:42:16 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:38:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:32:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:29:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 2/23/2012 9:22:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Scumbag judge. This is why religion should be banned.

Yes. That worked well behind the Iron Curtain. Fixed things 'right up'.

Yeah, religion has always worked. That is why the Inquisition, Salem "Witch" Trials, Red Scares, discrimination against Jews in many nations including the U.S., discrimination against Catholics in the U.S., discrimination against Sikhs and Muslims in the U.S. has been peaceful. Religion inspires people not commit crimes. You do not stone your mother to death for wearing clothing of two different threads. Redneck trailer park trash men do not beat their wives. 1/2 of the women in the United States are not raped and a 1/4 of the women are not subjected to domestic violence.

Religion has prevented all of that.
No religions claims that it can prevent evil from occurring. The reason these religions even claim to have been revealed by God is because they help guiding people and protecting them from evil. They didn't come to remove all evil.

Religion is supposed to be a conduct for moral action. The fact that religious people commit these atrocities indicates that religion is an ineffective tool with which to combat injustice.
No, that's gibberish. It's like saying, "Well, despite heavily depressed people being on medication and certain amounts of them remain depressed, we can conclude that medication is an ineffective tool used to fight depression!" It's animal logic. Stupid.