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Confused on Hard Indeterminism

joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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2/29/2012 12:31:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Libritarianism: free will, nothing is determined
Compatibilism: free will, everything is determined
Hard Determinism: no free will, everything is determined
Hard Indeterminism: no free will, nothing is determined

I understand all of them but Hard Indeterminism. How can reality exist with agents of no free will and yet it be not determined (by any means biological, physical, or spiritual)? Can anyone help me out on this one? Thanks.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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2/29/2012 1:44:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was going to say mechanism, assuming an entirely casual universe, but that would be biological I suppose.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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2/29/2012 2:20:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 12:31:05 PM, joneszj wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Libritarianism: free will, nothing is determined
Compatibilism: free will, everything is determined
Hard Determinism: no free will, everything is determined
Hard Indeterminism: no free will, nothing is determined

I understand all of them but Hard Indeterminism. How can reality exist with agents of no free will and yet it be not determined (by any means biological, physical, or spiritual)? Can anyone help me out on this one? Thanks.

From my understanding it is a denial of metaphysical reality and a denial of it having any power to interact with the physical...
compounded by it also being a denial of how much physicality constrains our actual actions.

I think it is merely people who just like being argumentative towards the obvious.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/29/2012 3:50:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 12:31:05 PM, joneszj wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Libritarianism: free will, nothing is determined
Compatibilism: free will, everything is determined
Hard Determinism: no free will, everything is determined
Hard Indeterminism: no free will, nothing is determined

I understand all of them but Hard Indeterminism. How can reality exist with agents of no free will and yet it be not determined (by any means biological, physical, or spiritual)? Can anyone help me out on this one? Thanks.

Humans are nothing more than mammals lacking intention. They have no will only instinct and all is a function of nature and the randomness therein.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/29/2012 6:52:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 3:50:14 PM, logicrules wrote:


Humans are nothing more than mammals lacking intention.

So you didn't intend to write that post? You never do anything for a purpose?
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logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/29/2012 8:59:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 6:52:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/29/2012 3:50:14 PM, logicrules wrote:


Humans are nothing more than mammals lacking intention.

So you didn't intend to write that post? You never do anything for a purpose?

Are you that dense?....I was answering an interrogatory.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/29/2012 9:16:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 8:59:44 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:52:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/29/2012 3:50:14 PM, logicrules wrote:


Humans are nothing more than mammals lacking intention.

So you didn't intend to write that post? You never do anything for a purpose?

Are you that dense?....I was answering an interrogatory.

....what you said isn't hard indeterminism...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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2/29/2012 9:24:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 9:16:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/29/2012 8:59:44 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 2/29/2012 6:52:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/29/2012 3:50:14 PM, logicrules wrote:


Humans are nothing more than mammals lacking intention.

So you didn't intend to write that post? You never do anything for a purpose?

Are you that dense?....I was answering an interrogatory.

....what you said isn't hard indeterminism...

LOL Hard indeterminism.....and yes it is.....it is just written in such a way as to be accurate.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/1/2012 12:37:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/29/2012 12:31:05 PM, joneszj wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Libritarianism: free will, nothing is determined
Compatibilism: free will, everything is determined
Hard Determinism: no free will, everything is determined
Hard Indeterminism: no free will, nothing is determined

I understand all of them but Hard Indeterminism. How can reality exist with agents of no free will and yet it be not determined (by any means biological, physical, or spiritual)? Can anyone help me out on this one? Thanks.

I know an answer. I just don't know if it is the answer to your question. So I'll talk, and you can tell me if it helped.

Some things are random, chaotic, undetermined. Radioactive breakdown, for instance, and the creation of virtual particles. Other things are deterministic.

You cannot construct free will out of determinism. The thing is, you can't construct free will out of chaos either. You can't get purpose out of indeterminate chaos any more than you can get it out of determinism.

So, we can't have free will, regardless of whether the universe is deterministic or not.

So these are unreasonable beliefs:

- Determinism and free will.
- Indeterminism and free will.

And these beliefs are reasonable:

- Determinism and no free will.
- Indeterminism and no free will.

Some people who reasonably believe there is no free will consider the universe to be indeterminate because it contains an element of indeterminacy. That's reasonable, given that the whole start-up/big-bang thing was probably undetermined, and could happen again anywhere and anytime, playing havoc with your plans for next Wednesday.

Note: I'm a free willie myself, so the above is my attempt to describe and explain a position that I do not hold.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/5/2012 10:17:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
A hard determinist just acknowledges that there is nothing that violates causality.

Everything is chaos, but nothing is truly random.
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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3/5/2012 8:13:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/5/2012 10:17:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
A hard determinist just acknowledges that there is nothing that violates causality.

Everything is chaos, but nothing is truly random.

You should be confused about hard indeterminism. Because it doesn't make sense.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL