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Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

GreatestIam
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3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.

At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

http://www.veoh.com...
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/2/2012 12:41:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

That wasn't the point at all.

In fact, I'm pretty sure TheGreatestIAm is an atheist.

Perhaps one of the most interesting ones we have on the site. Pretty sure his avvie is that character from The Jungle Book, which was a reference to the Devil.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/2/2012 4:55:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:41:37 PM, Ren wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

That wasn't the point at all.

In fact, I'm pretty sure TheGreatestIAm is an atheist.

Perhaps one of the most interesting ones we have on the site. Pretty sure his avvie is that character from The Jungle Book, which was a reference to the Devil.

Well then...That give me great insight. They are still fiction, thus I choose Daisy Dukes.
GreatestIam
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3/3/2012 11:01:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

True.

Yet the belief in Eve has been used to lead mankind to keep women submissive and well below men.

Men have forgotten how to be just men and how to teach their sons to be the same and put fundamental justice ahead of their self-centeredness.

The issue though is equality and fundamental justice.

Care to opine?
Or did you not because of an uncomfortable feeling?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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3/3/2012 11:09:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:41:37 PM, Ren wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

That wasn't the point at all.

In fact, I'm pretty sure TheGreatestIAm is an atheist.

Perhaps one of the most interesting ones we have on the site. Pretty sure his avvie is that character from The Jungle Book, which was a reference to the Devil.

Thanks for the kudos.

He may have just been deflecting because he did not like his answer.

I call myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist and am in a rather unique position with what I believe. I do have more in common with atheists though and can remain friendly with most unless they are intolerant of what I see as natural and they see as supernatural.

At the risk of losing that kudos, let me give you my short story.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

"Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white."

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God's killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help. I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL
logicrules
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3/3/2012 11:45:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/3/2012 11:01:39 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

True.

Yet the belief in Eve has been used to lead mankind to keep women submissive and well below men.

Men have forgotten how to be just men and how to teach their sons to be the same and put fundamental justice ahead of their self-centeredness.

The issue though is equality and fundamental justice.

Care to opine?
Or did you not because of an uncomfortable feeling?

Regards
DL

mmmm No one who believes in EVE is Christian. Re, Justice....thats a hell of a leap. Human justice is merely fair and has no relationship with God's Justice. I suggest you decide your own gods. Then there can be a debate. Thus far you are incorrect in almost all yof your assumptions, and/or mixing theologies for effect.

As to equality, that depends on weather one thinks sex is sui generis or accidence.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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3/4/2012 1:12:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/3/2012 11:09:58 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:41:37 PM, Ren wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:28:54 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

Neither....both are just fiction.

That wasn't the point at all.

In fact, I'm pretty sure TheGreatestIAm is an atheist.

Perhaps one of the most interesting ones we have on the site. Pretty sure his avvie is that character from The Jungle Book, which was a reference to the Devil.

Thanks for the kudos.

He may have just been deflecting because he did not like his answer.

I call myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist and am in a rather unique position with what I believe. I do have more in common with atheists though and can remain friendly with most unless they are intolerant of what I see as natural and they see as supernatural.

At the risk of losing that kudos, let me give you my short story.


The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

"Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white."

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God's killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help. I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

I respect your position. It is very interesting -- much more so than I initially thought.

I may be wrong, but it almost appears as though you've simply found a more sophisticated description of my own beliefs... at least, there is some alignment, I can tell that much.
GreatestIam
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3/5/2012 7:20:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 1:12:02 PM, Ren wrote:


I respect your position. It is very interesting -- much more so than I initially thought.

I may be wrong, but it almost appears as though you've simply found a more sophisticated description of my own beliefs... at least, there is some alignment, I can tell that much.

Thank you.
Nice to hear you are on my path. It is lonely here sometimes but better that than being on the wrong path.
Be strong and girdle your loins. It is a constant battle.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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3/5/2012 1:01:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
GEOGRAPHY OF A WOMAN

Between 18 and 22, a woman is like Africa.
Half discovered, half wild, fertile and naturally Beautiful!

Between 23 and 30, a woman is like Europe.
Well developed and open to trade, especially for someone of real value.

Between 31 and 35, a woman is like Spain.
Very hot, relaxed and convinced of her own beauty.

Between 36 and 40, a woman is like Greece.
Gently aging but still a warm and desirable place to visit.

Between 41 and 50, a woman is like Great Britain.
Has a glorious and all conquering past.

Between 51 and 60, a woman is like Israel.
Has been through war, doesn't make the same mistakes twice and takes care of business.

Between 61 and 70, a woman is like Canada.
Self-preserving, but open to meeting new people.

After 70, she becomes Tibet.
Wildly beautiful, with a mysterious past and the wisdom of the ages.
An adventurous spirit and a thirst for spiritual knowledge.

THE GEOGRAPHY OF A MAN
Between 1 and 90, a man is like Iran, entirely ruled by a couple of nuts.

THE END.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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3/5/2012 3:44:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 12:14:12 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Lilith or Eve? Female equality or not?

Who was the first woman Lilith or Eve?

Jews recognize Lilith yet Christians never mention her and assume, thanks to Christianity blaming Eve for the fall, that women must be submissive to men.



At present, most political and religious institutions do not give women equality.

We do give lip service to equality under the law but that seems to be the extent of what males will allow women. In the distant past, male strength was often necessary for the survival of the family. Today, that condition no longer exists.

Are women meant to be submissive to men forever or will men allowed women to be equal to men at some point in time?

Regards
DL

http://www.veoh.com...




as of now I dont know much about lilith, very interesting, but seems to me she ia mythological.

I'm thinking its either not true
OR It isn't important for our salvation.

But with that said it is an interesting story, but i would conclude make-believe.
Me
GreatestIam
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3/5/2012 4:33:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If genesis 1 is make believe, does that not make the whole bible make believe?

Also, what do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
DL
yoda878
Posts: 902
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3/5/2012 4:42:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/5/2012 4:33:58 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If genesis 1 is make believe, does that not make the whole bible make believe?

Also, what do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
D

are you speaking about Lilith? Where do you see her in genesis?
Me
GreatestIam
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3/6/2012 7:25:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/5/2012 4:42:37 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/5/2012 4:33:58 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If genesis 1 is make believe, does that not make the whole bible make believe?

Also, what do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
D

are you speaking about Lilith? Where do you see her in genesis?

Genesis 1 of course. No compliant rib woman there.

Rib woman, Eve, is Adam's second wife.

I ask again.
What do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
DL
yoda878
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3/14/2012 9:45:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 7:25:53 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 3/5/2012 4:42:37 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/5/2012 4:33:58 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If genesis 1 is make believe, does that not make the whole bible make believe?

Also, what do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
D

are you speaking about Lilith? Where do you see her in genesis?

Genesis 1 of course. No compliant rib woman there.

Rib woman, Eve, is Adam's second wife.

I ask again.
What do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
DL

The bible says that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. Their is however in my view that is a mystical story that was wrote, their is no proof of the story past medieval days. Yes some fun story, that was used for entertainment. sorry I cant believe it was anything more.
Me
GreatestIam
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3/15/2012 2:33:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I ask again.

What do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
DL
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/15/2012 2:37:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:45:49 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/6/2012 7:25:53 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 3/5/2012 4:42:37 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/5/2012 4:33:58 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
If genesis 1 is make believe, does that not make the whole bible make believe?

Also, what do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
D

are you speaking about Lilith? Where do you see her in genesis?

Genesis 1 of course. No compliant rib woman there.

Rib woman, Eve, is Adam's second wife.

I ask again.
What do you need salvation from?
If you believe in God, are you not exactly the way he created you to be?

Regards
DL

The bible says that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. Their is however in my view that is a mystical story that was wrote, their is no proof of the story past medieval days. Yes some fun story, that was used for entertainment. sorry I cant believe it was anything more.

There are two different creation stories in Genesis. One of them names Eve, the woman made from Adam's rib, the first woman. The second story implies that the creation of men and women were equal and then brings Eve in later. In the Jewish tradition, that first "equal" woman was Lilith.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/17/2012 9:29:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 2:37:32 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

There are two different creation stories in Genesis. One of them names Eve, the woman made from Adam's rib, the first woman. The second story implies that the creation of men and women were equal and then brings Eve in later. In the Jewish tradition, that first "equal" woman was Lilith.

Lilith was not the first equal woman (according to the story), but she was the first feminist.

She was created from clay just like Adam, but she was told to be subservient to Adam. She was also told to lie still and be on the bottom durring sex, while Adam is on top.

She objected- saying "was I not made of clay just like Adam? Am I not equal to him? Why must I be beneath him?"

Her punishment for talking back to God was to be tossed out of Eden.

Eve was then made from Adam's rib so she would be just one small part of him, not his equal.

There are a number of stories about Lilith's fate after that- one was that she wed the snake, and birthed demons.

Another was that she was already pregnant with a son from Adam, and from him created a whole population- the people in the land of Nod, where Cain was later exiled to, and where Cain found a wife.

Overall, she was a creation of a male-dominated society as a cautionary tale, that women should not strive for equality.
GreatestIam
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3/18/2012 10:56:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/17/2012 9:29:21 AM, Utopian wrote:


Overall, she was a creation of a male-dominated society as a cautionary tale, that women should not strive for equality.

Yes. Quite handy for males that but hardly justice for females.

Men who do not grant women equality are not moral or just.

Regards
DL