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The Beliefs of Atheists

Volkov
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6/24/2009 11:49:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
We all know that within the atheist community, there is a few camps. You have atheists that argue about the theory of what God is or is not, about what religion did or does to support human growth and society, about what atheists should or can do about continuing religious influence, etc. There is no real unifying voice within atheism, except for the constant idea that there is an absence of any deity in our universe.

http://www.cbc.ca...
In the link provided, a writer named Camille Paglia is discussed and her beliefs are shown. To sum it up, she believes that while there is no deity/ies, religion has played an important role in shaping human society throughout its growth, and still continues to influence us in positive manners, including through art and analogical statements that can profoundly shake society in ways that the original tenets of the religion probably didn't support (ie., Martin Luther King's influence from the Sermon On The Mount). Because religion is useful in our society, it should be protected, instead of out and out destroyed and replaced by our secularized society.

I think most atheists on here know who Christopher Hitchens is and has read his many works, so I won't go into a lot of detail about his theories. Suffice to say though, he holds almost the opposite view of Ms. Paglia, in that he believes religion has many more drawbacks than contributions, summed up by the title of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. If you haven't yet read his book, I urge you to find the nearest copy and buy it. Steal it if you must, it is just that important.

Now personally, I have a blend of Paglia's and Hitchen's beliefs, though I personally think I'm more Paglia. I believe religion has its place in society, and that it is important for us to understand the contributions it has made. We should never forget or even seek to replace religion completely, because the results that have come out of its influence - ranging from Michelangelo's art to Muslim astronomy - are too important to ignore. The most we should do is seek to reduce its influence on major policy or societal decisions. No longer should people be allowed to claim God as reason enough to commit murder, or oppress a people.
That being said, I do think that if religion were to die away completely, it wouldn't affect modern society as much as some people think. The death of supernatural belief only signals the transition of a society from a fear-of-the-unknown based belief, to embrace-the-unknown belief. I see nothing wrong with this, because it is only the progression of culture, like the transition from Paganism to Monotheism.

I've created this thread in order for a discussion among atheists, or even the religious that have valid opinions on the matter, about what exactly they believe. Is religion culturally irrelevant now? Do the negatives of religion outweigh the positives? Please, share your ideas.

I know I'm mostly talking about cultural/societal impacts of religion, but feel free to discuss scientific and philosophical beliefs as well.
Kleptin
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6/24/2009 12:00:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Your disclaimer will do nothing to prevent incompetent members from posting their drivel here, but nice try anyway >.>

Religion is, in a way, both necessary and unnecessary. It is more than possible to ban food and drink and replace it instead with bland food-stuffs and water. However, humans are imperfect and Religion is an outgrowth of that innate human imperfection. If we were an ideal society, we would have developed empiricism, logic, and reason as a means to deal with things from the get-go. Ignorance, fear, and imagination spawned religion and culture, which add flavor to human existence.

Like it or not, Religion will always exist. Just like how we will always prefer to eat a burger as opposed to injecting fat and dextrose into our veins. We all need to be a little stupid sometimes, because it's part of our nature, and part of enjoying life.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/24/2009 12:09:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Volkov
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6/24/2009 12:16:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 12:00:48 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Your disclaimer will do nothing to prevent incompetent members from posting their drivel here, but nice try anyway >.>

Haha, I have no doubt, but it doesn't hurt to try.

I agree with your points generally, though I think that the "stupidity" of humans doesn't necessarily have to manifest itself through religion. It could manifest itself just through culture and society, and still be entirely atheist. Religion is an excellent channel of that "stupidity," but it isn't the only channel. I wonder if possibly we had developed our science, freethought society and etc. earlier than we did, deist religion wouldn't exist.
LB628
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6/24/2009 12:41:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Religion has caused great things, and religion has caused terrible things. I think that the issue is more with human beings, than religion. Those who use religion to justify the horrific acts they have committed, would likely have used some other thing to justify them had religion not existed.
Those who did wonderful things, and were inspired by religion, would still have done those things if religion had not existed.

So it seems to be more about the nature of humans, with religion simply used as one of many possible reasons for our actions, then it does religion being the innate and sole cause of these things.
Volkov
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6/24/2009 1:02:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 12:41:24 PM, LB628 wrote:
So it seems to be more about the nature of humans, with religion simply used as one of many possible reasons for our actions, then it does religion being the innate and sole cause of these things.

Very true, and I don't think it can be put any better than that. But note that religion, while not the sole cause of positive or negative aspects, is a mitigating influence.

Religion is often used as an excuse to justify actions, and a lot of people take it literally. Religion can be the biggest influence, and that is an important factor when deciding the outcome of certain actions, along with human nature.

For example, the shooting of Dr. Tiller only a few weeks ago. His killer was clearly influenced by the multitude of religious thought on abortions, and I have no doubt that he used religious reasoning as the justification of what he was doing. Had deist religion not existed and instead replaced by an atheist culture, there is a 50/50 chance of him committing the same action with different justification. But, there is a greater chance of the anti-abortionist movement being as motivated as it is not existing in a atheist, science-and-pragmatist centered society, which can almost wipe out Dr. Tiller's killer's chances of committing the atrocity he did.

While religion is not the sole cause of any actions we take, it is definitely a very large factor in the choices people make. That is why it is important to remember and preserve religions, because without it a lot of the justification or many events, good or bad, will have been lost.
GodSands
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6/24/2009 1:39:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"except for the constant idea that there is an absence of any deity in our universe."

God is not a spirit or thing that you can witness, God is through out the universe and whats ever out side the universe. However it says God stretched out the heavens, iI belief that the universe is ever lasting because God is. To exit from this universe, you would have to enter another dimension. So I belief. Also in Isiaiah I think it speaks about God being too large that the skys and the heavens can not contain God. God is invinite not finite. This is what God is like I believe. Not a deity which takes up only a certain amount of space, say 40m tall.
Kleptin
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6/24/2009 1:51:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 1:39:44 PM, GodSands wrote:
"except for the constant idea that there is an absence of any deity in our universe."

God is not a spirit or thing that you can witness, God is through out the universe and whats ever out side the universe. However it says God stretched out the heavens, iI belief that the universe is ever lasting because God is. To exit from this universe, you would have to enter another dimension. So I belief. Also in Isiaiah I think it speaks about God being too large that the skys and the heavens can not contain God. God is invinite not finite. This is what God is like I believe. Not a deity which takes up only a certain amount of space, say 40m tall.

Thank you for that absolutely irrelevant contribution that is vagueness and ignorance disguised as profundity. Notice that no one has mentioned anything about finite deities, witnessing God, or omnipresence. Yet, you decide to ramble on about those things as if though someone asked you, which they didn't. Also, you include this little caveat about leaving the universe and entering another dimension, which is just babble because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just throwing random concepts and phrases left and right, hoping that we won't catch on. Maybe other people still have a sense that it is wrong to point out when you perform troll-like acts but I don't.

Please refrain from posting garbage that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. We are talking about the impact of Religion on human society, not the existence of God.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Prophecy_Denied
Posts: 5
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6/24/2009 1:58:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I believe that we need some religion, but there are religions out there that need to be.. "discarded". Particularly the ones that interfere with the quality of ones life. We need to live our lives to the fullest and not, as I call it, "Live to die" which means you live your life for the sole purpose of seeking life after death. I think this mentality is a festering parasite in the lives of our friends and family, they need to live to enjoy their present life not discard it for a promised one after death.

I also believe religions that place a heavy amount of restrictions on ones life should be discarded.

As long as the religion increases the quality of ones life, I think religion can be a good thing despite talk about how much better off we would be without any out it.
That girl who smiles at you everyday. That man who opened the door for you. That kid who's dating your daughter. We are amongst you.
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Kleptin
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6/24/2009 1:58:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 1:02:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/24/2009 12:41:24 PM, LB628 wrote:
So it seems to be more about the nature of humans, with religion simply used as one of many possible reasons for our actions, then it does religion being the innate and sole cause of these things.

Very true, and I don't think it can be put any better than that. But note that religion, while not the sole cause of positive or negative aspects, is a mitigating influence.

Religion is often used as an excuse to justify actions, and a lot of people take it literally. Religion can be the biggest influence, and that is an important factor when deciding the outcome of certain actions, along with human nature.

For example, the shooting of Dr. Tiller only a few weeks ago. His killer was clearly influenced by the multitude of religious thought on abortions, and I have no doubt that he used religious reasoning as the justification of what he was doing. Had deist religion not existed and instead replaced by an atheist culture, there is a 50/50 chance of him committing the same action with different justification. But, there is a greater chance of the anti-abortionist movement being as motivated as it is not existing in a atheist, science-and-pragmatist centered society, which can almost wipe out Dr. Tiller's killer's chances of committing the atrocity he did.

While religion is not the sole cause of any actions we take, it is definitely a very large factor in the choices people make. That is why it is important to remember and preserve religions, because without it a lot of the justification or many events, good or bad, will have been lost.

Whether or not we have an atheistic society, we will always have people who share different beliefs and who will be so inclined towards those beliefs that they will engage in outrageous behavior. Like you said, there's still a good chance it would have happened with a different motive, but there's a great chance that this act of violence would be replaced with other acts of violence related to whatever extremist thinking would exist.

And in response to above, I think that Religion and culture are pretty much one and the same. I won't go so far as to say that one is the outgrowth of another, but there's really no compromise between a pure atheistic/pragmatic society and cultural expression. Most if not all cultural practices would be considered superfluous.

Even in small amounts, it has a big impact. Kids my age who are heavily inclined towards logic, reason, and empiricism seem to lose touch with their roots. I myself have trouble rationalizing the practices in my family: bowing at my ancestors' grave sites, pouring wine, lighting incense, etc. and at times, I just sort of let my rationality fade and take some time to actually believe that these actions are appreciated by their spirits, and that sort of willful ignorance is very pleasant. For a time.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
TheSkeptic
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6/24/2009 2:09:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Many times, religion is overall positive on the individual level - giving hope to the hopeless, giving consolence, etc.

On the other hand, on a macroscale religion is overall negative to society and human growth. Just look at Prop 8 that got passed in California, it was due to religion :P
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/24/2009 2:11:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I would say that I agree Hitchins. Religion poisons everything. Though the problem is that people seem to confuse religion with spirituality. Like my signature says, "Religion destroys spirituality." People have the idea that spirituality is worshiping an invisible deity or believing in heaven and hell. This is utterly false. You can be an atheist with the belief in no god, and still be spiritual. I personally don't believe in any supreme deities (I'm a pantheist), yet I still consider myself a spiritual person. (The many deities that may exist, are merely extraterrestrials or ancient rulers that were later deified.)

So it's not the belief in eternal life, spiritual realms, etc. that is the problem. DOGMA is the problem. Narrow-mindendness, stubbornness, ignorance, tainted philosophy, abandonment of logic and reason, and immorality are the fruits of religious dogma.

I think that religion needs to be completely destroyed in order for the human race to progress. Religion strictly prohibits progression, because it says that all the answers to life are in one book, and anything that contradicts it, or is outside of it, is false or unimportant. Though I must stress that we shouldn't completely abandon sacred texts, that would be foolish. There are many gems to be found within these texts, despite the negative aspects and fallacies. People need to be able to view all religious texts with an open mind, instead of declaring one book truth, and the rest false.

In the end, there is nothing positive that comes from religion. It may motivate good deeds, but the deeds can be done without religion, or the deeds are being done merely for the reward of "salvation," not for moral reasons.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

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patsox834
Posts: 406
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6/24/2009 2:13:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm not entirely sure what to think, honestly.

For a while, I've made the following contentions about religion:

It teaches one to start off with answers and search for a rationalized line of reasoning, which is harmful to critical thought and rationality. Furthermore, it tells us that it's perfectly fine to accept things without any proof, evidence, nor logic. That's even looked upon as a *good* thing.

And while that, in and of itself, seems entirely irrational, the effects go even deeper -- the line of thinking I mentioned above is directly opposed to science and the scientific method, which means, in a sense, not only is religion corrosive to rationality, but it's corrosive to science, too.

And all that is partially why I've wanted to abolish religion; however, I'm really starting to rethink that. The idealism in abolishing religion is much too high -- what I mean is, in essence, in our current society, we couldn't do away with religion without consequently putting restrictions on thinking, which is something that I'm vehemently opposed to.

So, that in mind, I'm starting to think religion has its place...I still disagree with it (which is why I still call myself an antitheist), and I think plenty of people go overboard (even on this very site...we all know who I mean), but at the same time, I think people ought to be able to think whatever they want without restraints.

So yeah, it's an issue I've had to change my mind on a little.
Volkov
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6/24/2009 2:22:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 2:11:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In the end, there is nothing positive that comes from religion. It may motivate good deeds, but the deeds can be done without religion, or the deeds are being done merely for the reward of "salvation," not for moral reasons.

I would have to disagree. As I stated before, religion can be the main reasoning behind many positive acts. They're not the sole reason for the acts, but they are a major influence. To say that such acts would exist without religion is to gamble with reality. Michelangelo may have created masterpieces still, but we wouldn't have the magnificent art on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel - we wouldn't have had the magnificence of the Chapel architecture either.

Who knows what would be in its place, so lets realize that what is there right now is positive and it is culturally important, and that religion was indeed the motivation behind the creation of it.
Kleptin
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6/24/2009 2:26:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Then again, we're all defining "religion" in different ways.

What's the best way to have a massive amount of people who can't think for themselves, to do good deeds?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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6/24/2009 2:33:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 6/24/2009 1:51:33 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 6/24/2009 1:39:44 PM, GodSands wrote:
"except for the constant idea that there is an absence of any deity in our universe."

God is not a spirit or thing that you can witness, God is through out the universe and whats ever out side the universe. However it says God stretched out the heavens, iI belief that the universe is ever lasting because God is. To exit from this universe, you would have to enter another dimension. So I belief. Also in Isiaiah I think it speaks about God being too large that the skys and the heavens can not contain God. God is invinite not finite. This is what God is like I believe. Not a deity which takes up only a certain amount of space, say 40m tall.

Thank you for that absolutely irrelevant contribution that is vagueness and ignorance disguised as profundity. Notice that no one has mentioned anything about finite deities, witnessing God, or omnipresence. Yet, you decide to ramble on about those things as if though someone asked you, which they didn't. Also, you include this little caveat about leaving the universe and entering another dimension, which is just babble because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just throwing random concepts and phrases left and right, hoping that we won't catch on. Maybe other people still have a sense that it is wrong to point out when you perform troll-like acts but I don't.

Please refrain from posting garbage that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. We are talking about the impact of Religion on human society, not the existence of God.


No problem, my honour. Oh Kleptin how is your life in the real world? Is it going alright, seem angry with me.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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6/24/2009 2:41:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 2:33:04 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 6/24/2009 1:51:33 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 6/24/2009 1:39:44 PM, GodSands wrote:
"except for the constant idea that there is an absence of any deity in our universe."

God is not a spirit or thing that you can witness, God is through out the universe and whats ever out side the universe. However it says God stretched out the heavens, iI belief that the universe is ever lasting because God is. To exit from this universe, you would have to enter another dimension. So I belief. Also in Isiaiah I think it speaks about God being too large that the skys and the heavens can not contain God. God is invinite not finite. This is what God is like I believe. Not a deity which takes up only a certain amount of space, say 40m tall.

Thank you for that absolutely irrelevant contribution that is vagueness and ignorance disguised as profundity. Notice that no one has mentioned anything about finite deities, witnessing God, or omnipresence. Yet, you decide to ramble on about those things as if though someone asked you, which they didn't. Also, you include this little caveat about leaving the universe and entering another dimension, which is just babble because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just throwing random concepts and phrases left and right, hoping that we won't catch on. Maybe other people still have a sense that it is wrong to point out when you perform troll-like acts but I don't.

Please refrain from posting garbage that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. We are talking about the impact of Religion on human society, not the existence of God.


No problem, my honour. Oh Kleptin how is your life in the real world? Is it going alright, seem angry with me.

Being intolerant of douchebaggery =/= problems in one's life.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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6/24/2009 2:50:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
@patsox

You don't need to explain anything to him. He doesn't have a leg left to stand on so he's making up for the blow I sent to his ego with the standard "Your personal life must suck". Which is actually just a redirection since I made the same remark about him in another topic on another forum.

Simply said, he's recycling intellectual material. I prefer that over what he usually does. If he has a choice to either generate trash or recycle the intelligent thoughts of others, I obviously prefer the latter.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
prov1s
Posts: 26
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6/24/2009 3:30:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I coincidentally picked up a copy of God is not Great by Hitchens at the library the day this thread was started. It's really a good book so far. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this subject, atheist or otherwise.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/24/2009 3:34:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 3:30:42 PM, prov1s wrote:
I coincidentally picked up a copy of God is not Great by Hitchens at the library the day this thread was started. It's really a good book so far. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this subject, atheist or otherwise.

Agreed, it is a very good book. I would also recommend Sexual Personae by Camille Paglia. It isn't as smutty as it sounds. It deals a lot with the clash of culture and religion, and how that influences art, literature and etc.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/24/2009 3:35:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 2:26:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Then again, we're all defining "religion" in different ways.

What's the best way to have a massive amount of people who can't think for themselves, to do good deeds?

Government-run welfare programs!
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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6/24/2009 5:02:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 3:35:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/24/2009 2:26:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Then again, we're all defining "religion" in different ways.

What's the best way to have a massive amount of people who can't think for themselves, to do good deeds?

Government-run welfare programs!

I said "do good deeds", not "do absolutely nothing" XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/24/2009 7:31:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 5:02:34 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 6/24/2009 3:35:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/24/2009 2:26:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Then again, we're all defining "religion" in different ways.

What's the best way to have a massive amount of people who can't think for themselves, to do good deeds?

Government-run welfare programs!

I said "do good deeds", not "do absolutely nothing" XD

I said "do good deeds", not "do bad deeds" XD

Fixed.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/24/2009 9:59:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 7:31:16 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 6/24/2009 5:02:34 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 6/24/2009 3:35:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/24/2009 2:26:01 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Then again, we're all defining "religion" in different ways.

What's the best way to have a massive amount of people who can't think for themselves, to do good deeds?

Government-run welfare programs!

I said "do good deeds", not "do absolutely nothing" XD

I said "do good deeds", not "do bad deeds" XD

Fixed.

*Rezzes signature:
God is not omnipotent.
"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." - Judges 1:19


Judges 1:19 (New King James Version)
19 So the LORD was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.


Even though the Bible never states that God is omnipotent, (in the self-contradictory sense of the word itself) you still utilize LIES (the currency of this world and your father) to make your pallid little point.
Congratulations.

Matthew 12:30 (The Message)

30"This is war, and there is no neutral ground. If you're not on my side, you're the enemy; if you're not helping, you're making things worse.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/25/2009 12:35:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/24/2009 7:31:16 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
I said "do good deeds", not "do bad deeds" XD

Fixed.

Somehow, I disagree.

Any thoughts on the future of religion, at least in the West ("West" here not including the United States)? Will it become ever more obsolete and secularized, and will the need for religion or religious expression (ranging from art to Mass) be needed?

To add to this, France in 2004 put in place a law that restricted students in public schools from wearing any overt religious symbolism, which means Holy Cross necklaces to the hajj. I would use that as an excellent indicator of the mood in Europe's largest country.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/25/2009 1:37:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Man, you guys must feel important.. just hanging out discussing the future of humanity when THERE IS NO FUTURE:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 (New King James Version)
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

The Cross.. the Cross.
LB628
Posts: 176
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6/25/2009 3:59:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/25/2009 1:37:47 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Man, you guys must feel important.. just hanging out discussing the future of humanity when THERE IS NO FUTURE:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 (New King James Version)
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.



If there is no future, why do you bother to post?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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6/25/2009 7:13:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Better question would be: Why bother to respond?

@volkov

I think that banning religious symbols in school and whatnot is a little over-the-top. I'm definitely against that. Having organized, teacher-led prayer in school should be out, but if students wish to pray together, they should be able to, so long as it doesn't interfere with traffic or make too much noise.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/25/2009 11:08:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/25/2009 3:59:41 PM, LB628 wrote:
At 6/25/2009 1:37:47 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Man, you guys must feel important.. just hanging out discussing the future of humanity when THERE IS NO FUTURE:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 (New King James Version)
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.



If there is no future, why do you bother to post?

'Future' is one part of the trinity of time. (past, present, future)
Eternity is outside of time: Where will you spend it?

MATT16:15
"But Who do you say that I Am?"
The Cross.. the Cross.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/26/2009 7:34:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/25/2009 7:13:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I think that banning religious symbols in school and whatnot is a little over-the-top. I'm definitely against that. Having organized, teacher-led prayer in school should be out, but if students wish to pray together, they should be able to, so long as it doesn't interfere with traffic or make too much noise.

Very true, though that does create a lot of issues, at least within the school. I remember when a New Brunswick school tried to stop playing the national anthem, because some of the parents objected to it for various reasons. The school principal (funnily enough, a Green candidate in several elections), had said that those kids that wished to sing the anthem could sing it in another room if they wished, but that the school itself wouldn't force kids to do it.

Situation and circumstances are a little different, but you can see where I'm going with this. The parents of the other students (not the students themselves, mind you) were up in arms over it, raising hell and forced the principal out of his job and forced the province to enforce schools to play the anthem. The same thing will almost undoubtedly happen with prayer or group religious sessions, whether a small minority complains or the majority does. The only religious prayer that I can see not being too big of an issue - in areas where people are tolerant anyways - is the Muslim call to prayer. It is a scheduled event, not something easily circumvented, unlike Christian prayers, which can be scheduled during recess/lunch break.

I wonder though, giving the current trend in belief, if this will even matter in a few decades. The secularization of religion and the increased attention and contribution of atheism could turn this into a non-issue, given if the trend doesn't turn all of us into Christopher Hitchens, because people will be tolerant enough to accept private prayer sessions in school, etc.