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Fallen World as a rationlization

Illegalcombatant
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3/2/2012 9:06:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Arguments for atheism and against theism often include our world, and the cruelties, absurdities etc within them. One of the most common responses especially for christians is to claim we live in a "fallen world".

What is implied with the term fallen world is that in the past some where, originally the world was some sort of utopia/paradise. The reason being, cause for some its untenable to claim a good God created such a world with all the problems that one can cite.

So whats the problem here ? Well, do we have any evidence of the world being at some time in the past a utopia or only the bare assertion ? Without evidence, isn't it the case we just have another rationlisation to make the existence of God compatible with evidence that doesn't suggest that God exists ?

Also, If there is no way to tell whether the world we live in is the way it is because its proceeds from a perfect/good world or it doesn't proceed from a perfect/good world, wouldn't occams razor demand that we should go without the perfect world claim, as this adds an unnecessary entity
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/4/2012 6:21:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Cmon guys you want to say something on this, I know you want to, first it deals with a "fallen world" kinda important in the christian view, and also deals with plausibility of whether such a world/state of affairs is part of humanity past.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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3/4/2012 8:51:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/2/2012 9:06:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Arguments for atheism and against theism often include our world, and the cruelties, absurdities etc within them. One of the most common responses especially for christians is to claim we live in a "fallen world".

What is implied with the term fallen world is that in the past some where, originally the world was some sort of utopia/paradise. The reason being, cause for some its untenable to claim a good God created such a world with all the problems that one can cite.

As we know it, all things were linked through the first man and woman. They were able to live forever in their human bodies and never grow old; the earth and all of its inhabitants the same. There were none of the disasters we see today - Earthquakes, tornadoes, Tsunamis, etc. Once man fell, he brought all of creation down with him.

So whats the problem here ? Well, do we have any evidence of the world being at some time in the past a utopia or only the bare assertion ? Without evidence, isn't it the case we just have another rationlisation to make the existence of God compatible with evidence that doesn't suggest that God exists ?

There is no such evidence that God doesn't exist - he isn't falsifiable. We find out HOW things work, we never find out WHY they do.
Do we have evidence that the earth was at one point perfect? No. Will a man ever discover Eden, or any traces of a formerly perfect world?
1. I don't there is even a method scientifically to test such an idea
2. There is no way to come across such evidence, as it would be impossible to test a perfect fossil, when we only have imperfection to work with.
3. Biblically - Eden was erased after the flood. (there is evidence of this)

Also, If there is no way to tell whether the world we live in is the way it is because its proceeds from a perfect/good world or it doesn't proceed from a perfect/good world, wouldn't occams razor demand that we should go without the perfect world claim, as this adds an unnecessary entity

He would, but God isn't within the realm of our logic and reasoning. He is to complex for us to discover or rationalize. He has provided ample explanation in the Bible, but we struggle to even understand the dumbed down version.

What sort of answers do you expect to find? If you wish to get the sight we've been granted, i would say pray, and ask for it.

If you respond, please don't be douche, and start insulting me for taking things on faith.. i don't take those things well, as evident in my other posts...

I tend to lose my temper..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/4/2012 9:29:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 8:51:10 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/2/2012 9:06:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Arguments for atheism and against theism often include our world, and the cruelties, absurdities etc within them. One of the most common responses especially for christians is to claim we live in a "fallen world".

What is implied with the term fallen world is that in the past some where, originally the world was some sort of utopia/paradise. The reason being, cause for some its untenable to claim a good God created such a world with all the problems that one can cite.

As we know it, all things were linked through the first man and woman. They were able to live forever in their human bodies and never grow old; the earth and all of its inhabitants the same. There were none of the disasters we see today - Earthquakes, tornadoes, Tsunamis, etc. Once man fell, he brought all of creation down with him.

As we know it, with all due respect we don't know that, its a christian/religious assertion. If we did know it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


So whats the problem here ? Well, do we have any evidence of the world being at some time in the past a utopia or only the bare assertion ? Without evidence, isn't it the case we just have another rationlisation to make the existence of God compatible with evidence that doesn't suggest that God exists ?

There is no such evidence that God doesn't exist - he isn't falsifiable. We find out HOW things work, we never find out WHY they do.

Do we have evidence that the earth was at one point perfect? No. Will a man ever discover Eden, or any traces of a formerly perfect world?
1. I don't there is even a method scientifically to test such an idea
2. There is no way to come across such evidence, as it would be impossible to test a perfect fossil, when we only have imperfection to work with.

hmmmm, actually fossils can tell us a thing or two about the past, I just don't know of any that can be used as evidence to support a past perfect world claim.

3. Biblically - Eden was erased after the flood. (there is evidence of this)


Also, If there is no way to tell whether the world we live in is the way it is because its proceeds from a perfect/good world or it doesn't proceed from a perfect/good world, wouldn't occams razor demand that we should go without the perfect world claim, as this adds an unnecessary entity

He would, but God isn't within the realm of our logic and reasoning. He is to complex for us to discover or rationalize. He has provided ample explanation in the Bible, but we struggle to even understand the dumbed down version.

Well lets just stick to the past perfect world proposition for now. And no, people aren't just going to let you side step reason and evidence with God works in mysterious ways.


What sort of answers do you expect to find? If you wish to get the sight we've been granted, i would say pray, and ask for it.


If you respond, please don't be douche, and start insulting me for taking things on faith.. i don't take those things well, as evident in my other posts...

That's the thing, you have to take it on faith cause the evidence either doesn't support the claim or even worse supports its contradictory.

If you believe in a perfect/good world in the past on faith, then sure, there is no argument or reason that can counter a faith claim. But where else do we play by these rules ? if some one claims that we all live in the matrix, and sure, a real world is indistinguishable from living in a simulated reality, but hey, I accept the matrix on faith, what can you do ?

All you can do is invoke occams razor here ?

PS: You can't prove we don't live in the matrix.


I tend to lose my temper..

A bad temper with the view of righteous indignation cause your on Gods side is a dangerous thing.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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3/4/2012 10:49:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 9:29:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote
As we know it, with all due respect we don't know that, its a christian/religious assertion. If we did know it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I apologize for not clarifying, I was referring to Christians.

hmmmm, actually fossils can tell us a thing or two about the past, I just don't know of any that can be used as evidence to support a past perfect world claim.

Well if you believe that fossils can tell us things you would have to be taking it on faith. You have no observed these fossils yourself, therefore you take it on faith that the people analyzing the fossils know what they are talking about. Furthermore, the archaeologist, paleontologist, and geologist all must take it on faith that they are correctly assessing the fossils and rocks they conclude to be the ages they are. As there is no way to prove a rock or fossil is a certain age unless we have other evidence which is undeniably from a certain time period to compare it with.

3. Biblically - Eden was erased after the flood. (there is evidence of this)

Well lets just stick to the past perfect world proposition for now. And no, people aren't just going to let you side step reason and evidence with God works in mysterious ways.

That is the biggest wall we both face when discussing these issues, as your methods of understanding, limit you from discovering the things we believe to be true, mainly due to your dislike of the idea, and no so much as missing proof. As i have already stated, you do have faith in the things you hold to be true as well.

That's the thing, you have to take it on faith cause the evidence either doesn't support the claim or even worse supports its contradictory.

Lol, no my friend there is not a shred of evidence that is contradictory to what the bible teaches. If you believe there is; list a few, and i will address them.

If you believe in a perfect/good world in the past on faith, then sure, there is no argument or reason that can counter a faith claim. But where else do we play by these rules ? if some one claims that we all live in the matrix, and sure, a real world is indistinguishable from living in a simulated reality, but hey, I accept the matrix on faith, what can you do ?

All you can do is invoke occams razor here ?

PS: You can't prove we don't live in the matrix.

I've addressed this above, but as it is, we both take it on faith. You believe because someone who has researched the rocks, went to school(been taught by others who believe the same), and use methods that seem to be cutting-edge, that they must be acknowledge over those whom you disagree with. Not very convincing.

I'm glad you brought up the matrix, i was just watching it on TNT a moment ago; It is a good analogy for what the world actually is. Now, you can cite all the fictional stories you'd like, and it wouldn't prove your case in the slightest bit. Intellegent design is not comparable to these stories, as it is really the only plausible explanation for our being here. Just because their are stories and comics about super-heroes and wizards, doesn't mean God doesn't exist and he didn't create a perfect world at one point. You confuse obviously fictitious and in no way seriously considered true, entertainment with the dominant belief of the WORLD.

A bad temper with the view of righteous indignation cause your on Gods side is a dangerous thing.

No more dangerous than the many atheist nations who decided to eradicate inferior beings. Hitler(was not a theist), Stalin, Pole pot, Ancient Rome(before their conversion, and despite the fact the believed in GODS - they never killed Christians in the name of them, they did it for the same reasons you doubt my God - and entertainment).

So overall, you simply will not believe in a God because of movies, and lack of evidence that meets your standards. I believe God made it that way, so that we could not take pride in our ability to understand him, and seek to be thought of as his similitude. We are dust mites in comparison to him, and i much rather stake my 'fate' on him, then other men who are capable of the same things i am.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/5/2012 12:06:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You can't refute the argument so you bring up all that other junk. That's pretty dishonest. I am not impressed by some one who asks not to be personally attacked then does all that crap you just did.

Here is the main point. The evidence doesn't suggest and even counters that the world was made by a good God. To get around this you add the further proposition that God created a good/perfect world, but that the world changed from that perfect state "fallen" and thus the evidence reflects this now fallen world.

You need that extra proposition to get around the evidence, but why should it be granted ?

You didn't really address my matrix point, you just ridiculing it doesn't address the logic of Occam razor.

Does the extra proposition that we live in the matrix add any explanatory power over say living in a real world ? no, so don't add it.

Does the extra proposition that we live in a world that has changed from once been perfect add any explanatory power say over that there never was a perfect world ? If not, then Occam's razor says don't add it.

Speaking of fiction, did it ever occur to you that some one made up the the perfect world claim and attributed it to God ? How do you rule out this possibility ? After all, you seem to acknowledge that people make stuff up like super heroes and the matrix.

I am mean you want to be fair and honest right ? you wouldn't have a double standard when it comes to examining claims right ?

Here is a Sam Harris, I thought it appropriate since you claimed that we can't prove that God doesn't exist and/or didn't create a perfect world some time ago. Good news, I agree and gives no purchase what so ever to believe that claim.

"Given the gaps of science and the elasticity of religious thinking, it will always be possible to reconcile the most gratuitous non sense with our modern scientific world view" - Sam Harris
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/25/2014 9:38:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/2/2012 9:06:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Arguments for atheism and against theism often include our world, and the cruelties, absurdities etc within them. One of the most common responses especially for christians is to claim we live in a "fallen world".

What is implied with the term fallen world is that in the past some where, originally the world was some sort of utopia/paradise. The reason being, cause for some its untenable to claim a good God created such a world with all the problems that one can cite.

So whats the problem here ? Well, do we have any evidence of the world being at some time in the past a utopia or only the bare assertion ? Without evidence, isn't it the case we just have another rationlisation to make the existence of God compatible with evidence that doesn't suggest that God exists ?

Also, If there is no way to tell whether the world we live in is the way it is because its proceeds from a perfect/good world or it doesn't proceed from a perfect/good world, wouldn't occams razor demand that we should go without the perfect world claim, as this adds an unnecessary entity

I don't believe we lived in a perfect world. We lived in a paradise, but that paradise is not the same paradise in heaven. We were never sinless, we were innocent, but innocence is not the same as being sinless. evil desires did exist, the Devil did exist, so clearly the world was never perfect. Sickness and death was a reality. God did not make a world perfect, he made it imperfect so that it could be refined through Christ into a world of perfection.