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What is God?

DakotaKrafick
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3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?
Illegalcombatant
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3/4/2012 3:50:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
A person. Now sure there is debate on what the details of this person, such as what they hate and why, what they approve and why etc.

But never the less, they all have in common an understanding of talking about a person.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
logicrules
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3/4/2012 6:05:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

First, it is not instinct that tells us what a Chimney is, it is a learned concept.
Second, nominalism addresses your issue.
Third, your "ifs" re God are all of your making, they are selfish rather than seeking. (begging the question fallacy)
God is what is, or as Scripture puts it "I am what is".
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/4/2012 8:40:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have asked a similar question to theists:

Is God composed of nothing, or is he composed of something? If he is composed of nothing then he is nothing, because only nothing can be composed of nothing. If he composed of something, then what is he composed of? If you want to claim that something exists, you must make accurate predictions about it's properties...If not, then you are just making things up.
DakotaKrafick
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3/4/2012 11:14:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 6:05:08 AM, logicrules wrote:
First, it is not instinct that tells us what a Chimney is, it is a learned concept.

I never said we knew what a chimney was instinctively; I said we form that image in our mind instinctively when we read the word (once we learn what a chimney looks like, of course). Deities are learned concepts as well, but we never learn what one is aside from empty words like "supernatural" and "divine" that mean nothing to us.

Second, nominalism addresses your issue.

I'm glad something does, because you're not.

Third, your "ifs" re God are all of your making, they are selfish rather than seeking. (begging the question fallacy)

I'm not begging the question as I'm not assuming the truth of any conclusions that I'm trying to prove; I'm entertaining a conditional possibility "If God exists, [what can we infer about...?]" Contrary to what intuition without study might tell you, begging the question doesn't mean the one committing the fallacy is actually asking a question.

God is what is, or as Scripture puts it "I am what is".

I am... what is, eh? Well, at least that makes sense to someone.
popculturepooka
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3/4/2012 12:10:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 8:40:39 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I have asked a similar question to theists:

Is God composed of nothing, or is he composed of something? If he is composed of nothing then he is nothing, because only nothing can be composed of nothing. If he composed of something, then what is he composed of? If you want to claim that something exists, you must make accurate predictions about it's properties...If not, then you are just making things up.

Give me an argument that all existent things must be "composed" (as in having parts that are put together). That's kind of why there have been arguments for thousands of years that God (or souls/minds) are "simple" in that they are not composed of parts.

For an example of the former (God) see:

http://plato.stanford.edu...

For an example of the latter (minds/souls) see:

http://spot.colorado.edu...

You're equivocating. :/
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logicrules
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3/4/2012 12:13:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 11:14:18 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/4/2012 6:05:08 AM, logicrules wrote:
First, it is not instinct that tells us what a Chimney is, it is a learned concept.

I never said we knew what a chimney was instinctively; I said we form that image in our mind instinctively when we read the word (once we learn what a chimney looks like, of course). Deities are learned concepts as well, but we never learn what one is aside from empty words like "supernatural" and "divine" that mean nothing to us.

Second, nominalism addresses your issue.

I'm glad something does, because you're not.

Third, your "ifs" re God are all of your making, they are selfish rather than seeking. (begging the question fallacy)

I'm not begging the question as I'm not assuming the truth of any conclusions that I'm trying to prove; I'm entertaining a conditional possibility "If God exists, [what can we infer about...?]" Contrary to what intuition without study might tell you, begging the question doesn't mean the one committing the fallacy is actually asking a question.

God is what is, or as Scripture puts it "I am what is".

I am... what is, eh? Well, at least that makes sense to someone.

Excellent example of the nonsensical thought processes of those who find their insights compelling, or put another way of idiocracy in practice.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/4/2012 12:31:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:10:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 8:40:39 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I have asked a similar question to theists:

Is God composed of nothing, or is he composed of something? If he is composed of nothing then he is nothing, because only nothing can be composed of nothing. If he composed of something, then what is he composed of? If you want to claim that something exists, you must make accurate predictions about it's properties...If not, then you are just making things up.

Give me an argument that all existent things must be "composed" (as in having parts that are put together). That's kind of why there have been arguments for thousands of years that God (or souls/minds) are "simple" in that they are not composed of parts.

For an example of the former (God) see:

http://plato.stanford.edu...

For an example of the latter (minds/souls) see:

http://spot.colorado.edu...

You're equivocating. :/

I never said all things must be composed, because it's the things that are being rearranged in the composition.

You are dodging the main point of the question, the question is basically: What are God's properties?

Basically, if only he existed before he created anything then what was he? What did he contain?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/4/2012 12:32:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:13:10 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/4/2012 11:14:18 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/4/2012 6:05:08 AM, logicrules wrote:
First, it is not instinct that tells us what a Chimney is, it is a learned concept.

I never said we knew what a chimney was instinctively; I said we form that image in our mind instinctively when we read the word (once we learn what a chimney looks like, of course). Deities are learned concepts as well, but we never learn what one is aside from empty words like "supernatural" and "divine" that mean nothing to us.

Second, nominalism addresses your issue.

I'm glad something does, because you're not.

Third, your "ifs" re God are all of your making, they are selfish rather than seeking. (begging the question fallacy)

I'm not begging the question as I'm not assuming the truth of any conclusions that I'm trying to prove; I'm entertaining a conditional possibility "If God exists, [what can we infer about...?]" Contrary to what intuition without study might tell you, begging the question doesn't mean the one committing the fallacy is actually asking a question.

God is what is, or as Scripture puts it "I am what is".

I am... what is, eh? Well, at least that makes sense to someone.

Excellent example of the nonsensical thought processes of those who find their insights compelling, or put another way of idiocracy in practice.

All of your posts are a good example of idiocy in practice.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/4/2012 12:41:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:31:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:10:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 8:40:39 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I have asked a similar question to theists:

Is God composed of nothing, or is he composed of something? If he is composed of nothing then he is nothing, because only nothing can be composed of nothing. If he composed of something, then what is he composed of? If you want to claim that something exists, you must make accurate predictions about it's properties...If not, then you are just making things up.

Give me an argument that all existent things must be "composed" (as in having parts that are put together). That's kind of why there have been arguments for thousands of years that God (or souls/minds) are "simple" in that they are not composed of parts.

For an example of the former (God) see:

http://plato.stanford.edu...

For an example of the latter (minds/souls) see:

http://spot.colorado.edu...

You're equivocating. :/

I never said all things must be composed, because it's the things that are being rearranged in the composition.

You are dodging the main point of the question, the question is basically: What are God's properties?

Basically, if only he existed before he created anything then what was he? What did he contain?

Yeah...don't pretend like you haven't tried to make the point in the past ("he must be composed of nothing if he's not composed of anything material therefore he doesn't exist!!!!!111"). I was just trying head that off.

And how is the normal classical monotheist conception deficient here if your asking about his properties? Your question doesn't make much sense to me to be honest.
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joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

Our minds naturally know God. Our ubiquitous depravity suppresses it. It kinda interesting that when I started studying theology I began to notice a ton of verses where it paints a picture that God chooses who He wants to worship Him and lets everyone else do what they want to. We can know Him, but in the same regard we can't comprehensively know Him. He reveals to us what He wants us to know.
DakotaKrafick
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3/4/2012 2:05:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

"Spiritual," "divine," "supernatural," they are all empty terms. No one can describe what any of these words mean without using the other ones.
DakotaKrafick
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3/4/2012 2:10:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:13:10 PM, logicrules wrote:
Excellent example of the nonsensical thought processes of those who find their insights compelling, or put another way of idiocracy in practice.

Empty conjecture. No one here is illustrating poorer cognition than you, and if you feel otherwise, please kindly elucidate your thoughts rather than offering unsubstantiated insults.

Does anyone else here feel DDO's forums offer an overall much lower standard of intelligence and integrity than the debates themselves?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:41:02 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:31:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:10:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 8:40:39 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I have asked a similar question to theists:

Is God composed of nothing, or is he composed of something? If he is composed of nothing then he is nothing, because only nothing can be composed of nothing. If he composed of something, then what is he composed of? If you want to claim that something exists, you must make accurate predictions about it's properties...If not, then you are just making things up.

Give me an argument that all existent things must be "composed" (as in having parts that are put together). That's kind of why there have been arguments for thousands of years that God (or souls/minds) are "simple" in that they are not composed of parts.

For an example of the former (God) see:

http://plato.stanford.edu...

For an example of the latter (minds/souls) see:

http://spot.colorado.edu...

You're equivocating. :/

I never said all things must be composed, because it's the things that are being rearranged in the composition.

You are dodging the main point of the question, the question is basically: What are God's properties?

Basically, if only he existed before he created anything then what was he? What did he contain?

Yeah...don't pretend like you haven't tried to make the point in the past ("he must be composed of nothing if he's not composed of anything material therefore he doesn't exist!!!!!111"). I was just trying head that off.

And how is the normal classical monotheist conception deficient here if your asking about his properties? Your question doesn't make much sense to me to be honest.

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?
joneszj
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3/4/2012 3:08:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 2:05:25 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

"Spiritual," "divine," "supernatural," they are all empty terms. No one can describe what any of these words mean without using the other ones.

Empty terms for a materialist. The terms describe things that are outside of our natural experience. I suppose spirit is being. Aseity.
popculturepooka
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3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/4/2012 4:40:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?

That's not what I mean by properties. What you are listing are abilities, I'm talking about what IS God. For example, a human being's properties are:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

These are things that "we" (as pre-existing materials) contain.

What I am asking is what IS God? What does he contain? He doesn't have to contain anything material but it still has to be something, and if so, then what?

Being all knowing, a creator, all powerful, eternal ect. are abilities or states. This doesn't answer the question of what he actually is, or what he contains.
joneszj
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3/4/2012 4:45:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 4:40:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?

That's not what I mean by properties. What you are listing are abilities, I'm talking about what IS God. For example, a human being's properties are:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

These are things that "we" (as pre-existing materials) contain.

What I am asking is what IS God? What does he contain? He doesn't have to contain anything material but it still has to be something, and if so, then what?

Being all knowing, a creator, all powerful, eternal ect. are abilities or states. This doesn't answer the question of what he actually is, or what he contains.

By saying God is spirit we are saying He is immaterial. He is not made up of any 'thing', He simply is. This is why He is called holy.
logicrules
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3/4/2012 4:46:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 2:10:21 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:13:10 PM, logicrules wrote:
Excellent example of the nonsensical thought processes of those who find their insights compelling, or put another way of idiocracy in practice.

Empty conjecture. No one here is illustrating poorer cognition than you, and if you feel otherwise, please kindly elucidate your thoughts rather than offering unsubstantiated insults.

Does anyone else here feel DDO's forums offer an overall much lower standard of intelligence and integrity than the debates themselves?

You sure do like universal absolutes. Ever read Aristotle? How bout the principles of the Enlightenment? As to low standards, WOW....what would your first principle of reason be? NB Principles are objective and absolute.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/4/2012 4:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 2:10:21 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:13:10 PM, logicrules wrote:
Excellent example of the nonsensical thought processes of those who find their insights compelling, or put another way of idiocracy in practice.

Empty conjecture. No one here is illustrating poorer cognition than you, and if you feel otherwise, please kindly elucidate your thoughts rather than offering unsubstantiated insults.

Does anyone else here feel DDO's forums offer an overall much lower standard of intelligence and integrity than the debates themselves?

Well sure, in a debate various claims can be scrutinized more and its 1 on 1 so the other person has no where to hide. The spot light is always on you and your opponent. This provides a big incentive for most people to pick up their game.

But its unreasonable to think that a forum such as this will provide the same quality as say a debate between the best debators on DDO, even on the same subject.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/4/2012 5:04:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 4:45:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:40:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?

That's not what I mean by properties. What you are listing are abilities, I'm talking about what IS God. For example, a human being's properties are:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

These are things that "we" (as pre-existing materials) contain.

What I am asking is what IS God? What does he contain? He doesn't have to contain anything material but it still has to be something, and if so, then what?

Being all knowing, a creator, all powerful, eternal ect. are abilities or states. This doesn't answer the question of what he actually is, or what he contains.

By saying God is spirit we are saying He is immaterial. He is not made up of any 'thing', He simply is. This is why He is called holy.

"He is not made up of any thing"

"Noth·ing/ˈnəTHiNG/
Pronoun:
Not anything; no single thing"
http://oxforddictionaries.com...

Basically, you just defined "nothing". Since nothing is synonymous with non
existence, then it's safe to say that God doesn't exist by your own definition.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/4/2012 5:39:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 5:04:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:45:47 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:40:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?

That's not what I mean by properties. What you are listing are abilities, I'm talking about what IS God. For example, a human being's properties are:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

These are things that "we" (as pre-existing materials) contain.

What I am asking is what IS God? What does he contain? He doesn't have to contain anything material but it still has to be something, and if so, then what?

Being all knowing, a creator, all powerful, eternal ect. are abilities or states. This doesn't answer the question of what he actually is, or what he contains.

By saying God is spirit we are saying He is immaterial. He is not made up of any 'thing', He simply is. This is why He is called holy.

"He is not made up of any thing"

"Noth·ing/ˈnəTHiNG/
Pronoun:
Not anything; no single thing"
http://oxforddictionaries.com...

Basically, you just defined "nothing". Since nothing is synonymous with non
existence, then it's safe to say that God doesn't exist by your own definition.

What is gravity composed of?
One simply needs to argue that God is a force and your 'what is God composed of' argument fails.
Of course it's nonsense, but try explaining that to a believer.
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Paradox_7
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3/4/2012 5:43:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

Our minds naturally know God. Our ubiquitous depravity suppresses it. It kinda interesting that when I started studying theology I began to notice a ton of verses where it paints a picture that God chooses who He wants to worship Him and lets everyone else do what they want to. We can know Him, but in the same regard we can't comprehensively know Him. He reveals to us what He wants us to know.

Very well put.

We are trapped by our reason, and so it limits us. The people he chose to reveal a glimpse of himself to, still can barely understand what he is.

Awesome.. He freed us from ourselves. Otherwise we would be arguing against his existence just like them.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/4/2012 5:53:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 5:43:21 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

Our minds naturally know God. Our ubiquitous depravity suppresses it. It kinda interesting that when I started studying theology I began to notice a ton of verses where it paints a picture that God chooses who He wants to worship Him and lets everyone else do what they want to. We can know Him, but in the same regard we can't comprehensively know Him. He reveals to us what He wants us to know.

Very well put.

We are trapped by our reason, and so it limits us. The people he chose to reveal a glimpse of himself to, still can barely understand what he is.

Awesome.. He freed us from ourselves. Otherwise we would be arguing against his existence just like them.

Or there is simply no God, like there is no Thor, Spiderman, or Superman in objective reality. That makes much more sense.
Paradox_7
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3/4/2012 6:00:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 5:53:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 5:43:21 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

Our minds naturally know God. Our ubiquitous depravity suppresses it. It kinda interesting that when I started studying theology I began to notice a ton of verses where it paints a picture that God chooses who He wants to worship Him and lets everyone else do what they want to. We can know Him, but in the same regard we can't comprehensively know Him. He reveals to us what He wants us to know.

Very well put.

We are trapped by our reason, and so it limits us. The people he chose to reveal a glimpse of himself to, still can barely understand what he is.

Awesome.. He freed us from ourselves. Otherwise we would be arguing against his existence just like them.

Or there is simply no God, like there is no Thor, Spiderman, or Superman in objective reality. That makes much more sense.


Coming from the guy who defines morality with other morals.

You're funny bro.. All of your arguments have an overhead and you simply cannot fathom anything beyond it. You still got time, though, i'll pray it's in his will to reveal himself to you. Your talents are being wasted on justifying a pointless cause, when they could be put to use in the only way that matters.

We will never be able to satisfactorily explain to you in a way you can understand. You will never convince one of us that God isn't real, and in the end.. we always win. whether we are right or wrong.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/4/2012 6:11:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 4:40:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 4:20:30 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2012 2:46:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Who ever said the normal classical monotheist conception of God was sound to begin with anyway?

It doesn't even matter if God (classically conceived) exists for the purposes of this discussion or if it's "sound". What matters is that he still has properties ascribed to him (creator, all-good, all-powerful, all-wise, eternal, etc). If you're asking about what God's properties are then how is the classical monotheist conception deficient here? How does looking at this conception not answer your question?

That's not what I mean by properties. What you are listing are abilities, I'm talking about what IS God. For example, a human being's properties are:

Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)

These are things that "we" (as pre-existing materials) contain.

What I am asking is what IS God? What does he contain? He doesn't have to contain anything material but it still has to be something, and if so, then what?

Being all knowing, a creator, all powerful, eternal ect. are abilities or states. This doesn't answer the question of what he actually is, or what he contains.

I'm not exactly sure I understand your use of the word "property".

This is how I use the word:

http://plato.stanford.edu...
http://en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)

If that is the correct understanding then saying God has the property of all-knowingness, for example, all-good is saying what (in part) what he is.

You could say that God is essentially a mental substance....

Btw, can you tell me what a physical simple contains?

http://krmcdani.mysite.syr.edu...

Nothing! The way you are using the terms there are no smaller parts in which you can show make up a physical simple. But surely a physical simple isn't literally "nothing" (as in non-existent)!

You seem to be using the word "contain" as shorthand for material constitution which would be fairly questioning begging.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/4/2012 6:15:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 6:00:19 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 5:53:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 5:43:21 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/4/2012 12:48:03 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

God is spirit. The reason people (Christians) have to describe God by what He is not is simply because He is completely 'other' (holy) from all of creation. It is called apothatic theology.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

Our minds naturally know God. Our ubiquitous depravity suppresses it. It kinda interesting that when I started studying theology I began to notice a ton of verses where it paints a picture that God chooses who He wants to worship Him and lets everyone else do what they want to. We can know Him, but in the same regard we can't comprehensively know Him. He reveals to us what He wants us to know.

Very well put.

We are trapped by our reason, and so it limits us. The people he chose to reveal a glimpse of himself to, still can barely understand what he is.

Awesome.. He freed us from ourselves. Otherwise we would be arguing against his existence just like them.

Or there is simply no God, like there is no Thor, Spiderman, or Superman in objective reality. That makes much more sense.


Coming from the guy who defines morality with other morals.

You're funny bro.. All of your arguments have an overhead and you simply cannot fathom anything beyond it. You still got time, though, i'll pray it's in his will to reveal himself to you. Your talents are being wasted on justifying a pointless cause, when they could be put to use in the only way that matters.

We will never be able to satisfactorily explain to you in a way you can understand. You will never convince one of us that God isn't real, and in the end.. we always win. whether we are right or wrong.

Actually you are funny, you believe in a supernatural being that exist beyond space and time that magically wills things into existence telepathically with his mind.

Sounds more like a bad movie than reality, Good luck with that :)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/4/2012 8:16:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/4/2012 3:15:07 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
Chimney. That's right, I said it. Chimney. Did you picture a brick one or a stone one? In your mind, did it have a pillar of smoke rising out of it?

Either way, when someone hears or reads "chimney" or "bird" or "computer," his/her mind instinctively forms an image related to the word. "God," by stark contrast, seems to carry no discernible meaning at all. Your mind doesn't picture anything, or maybe it just pictures the cosmos or a bright light or some old guy with a white beard (I'm pretty sure we can all agree God is probably not some old guy with a white beard, though).

My questions are these:
1. What is God? What is He? I don't want to know what He isn't. When people tell me God is timeless, spaceless, and immaterial, I respond "So he's nothing?" These are negative attributes; that is to say, they tell me what God isn't. And I want to know what God is. I also don't want personality attributes, like He is kind. I want to know what "God" IS.

2. If a deity created us and wanted us to worship Him, or even just know He's there, would He really create our minds with such an incapability of comprehending what He is?

I've seen a chimney. I haven't seen God.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)