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A timeless cause of the universe not logical

 Posts: 9,054 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 10:08:47 PMPosted: 4 years agoGod = Timeless cause1. A cause precedes it's effect."CausalityFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaCausality (also referred to as causation) is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first."http://en.wikipedia.org...2. In order for something to precede another, it must take place in time."Pre·cede/priˈsēd/Verb:Come before (something) in time."http://oxforddictionaries.com..."Pre·cede (pr-sd)v. pre·ced·ed, pre·ced·ing, pre·cedesv.tr.1. To come, exist, or occur before in time."http://www.thefreedictionary.com...3. Space-time began at The Big Bang.4. It is not logical, to assume a cause can exist outside of time because without time nothing can precede anything, and a cause precedes it's effect.5. "Timeless" and "cause" are contradictory terms and can't exist as one entity (like "square" and "circle").6. A timeless cause cannot exist.7. God does not exist.
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 10:35:25 PMPosted: 4 years agoI think it's a little premature to say nothing could have predated the Big Bang.
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 10:37:16 PMPosted: 4 years agoHehe, I've got problems with the personal timeless cause claim as well, but for slightly different reasons, but since I am here to be difficult, I mean in the interest of discussion I will make some counter points to your argument.At 3/5/2012 10:08:47 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:God = Timeless causeGod = Timeless personal cause1. A cause precedes it's effect."CausalityFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaCausality (also referred to as causation) is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first."http://en.wikipedia.org...2. In order for something to precede another, it must take place in time."Pre·cede/priˈsēd/Verb:Come before (something) in time."http://oxforddictionaries.com..."Pre·cede (pr-sd)v. pre·ced·ed, pre·ced·ing, pre·cedesv.tr.1. To come, exist, or occur before in time."http://www.thefreedictionary.com...3. Space-time began at The Big Bang.4. It is not logical, to assume a cause can exist outside of time because without time nothing can precede anything, and a cause precedes it's effect.The William Craig response goes something like causes don't have to precede their effects, they can happen simultaneously. Gods act of creating the universe (the cause) happens in the same time as the effect (the universe).5. "Timeless" and "cause" are contradictory terms and can't exist as one entity (like "square" and "circle").WLC treats God differently in two contexts, one as timeless absent the universe and the other having temporal relations with the universe, as he says..."Analogously, I want to suggest that we think of eternity, like the singularity, as the boundary of time. God is causally prior, but not chronologically prior, to the universe. His changeless, timeless, eternal state is the boundary of time, at which He exists without the universe, and at the moment of creation God enters into time in virtue of His real relation to the created order and His knowledge of tensed facts, so that God is timeless without creation and temporal subsequent to creation. "6. A timeless cause cannot exist.7. God does not exist."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 10:41:10 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 10:37:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:The William Craig response goes something like causes don't have to precede their effects, they can happen simultaneously. Gods act of creating the universe (the cause) happens in the same time as the effect (the universe).Huh, I've heard WLC say some weird stuff, but that? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense..."Analogously, I want to suggest that we think of eternity, like the singularity, as the boundary of time. God is causally prior, but not chronologically prior, to the universe. His changeless, timeless, eternal state is the boundary of time, at which He exists without the universe, and at the moment of creation God enters into time in virtue of His real relation to the created order and His knowledge of tensed facts, so that God is timeless without creation and temporal subsequent to creation. "Sounds like new-agey hogwash to me.
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 10:58:56 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 10:41:10 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 10:37:16 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:The William Craig response goes something like causes don't have to precede their effects, they can happen simultaneously. Gods act of creating the universe (the cause) happens in the same time as the effect (the universe).Huh, I've heard WLC say some weird stuff, but that? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense..."Analogously, I want to suggest that we think of eternity, like the singularity, as the boundary of time. God is causally prior, but not chronologically prior, to the universe. His changeless, timeless, eternal state is the boundary of time, at which He exists without the universe, and at the moment of creation God enters into time in virtue of His real relation to the created order and His knowledge of tensed facts, so that God is timeless without creation and temporal subsequent to creation. "Sounds like new-agey hogwash to me.William Craig at the 5:50 min mark. Responds to the claim the universe can't have a cause."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:06:58 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 10:58:56 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:William Craig at the 5:50 min mark. Responds to the claim the universe can't have a cause.How does he manage to say these things without laughing?
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:38:20 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:06:58 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 10:58:56 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:William Craig at the 5:50 min mark. Responds to the claim the universe can't have a cause.How does he manage to say these things without laughing?Ahhhh, but can you refute it ?"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PMPosted: 4 years agoQuestion: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication.lol I am just pointing out to this 'rational thinker' that his beliefs are illogical also. However, he is going by definitions that can be changed and disproven. This entire thread is...illogical. :)"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:53:12 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:38:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:Ahhhh, but can you refute it ?That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There is no reason to believe a cause and its effect can occur simultaneously.
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:56:03 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication.lol I am just pointing out to this 'rational thinker' that his beliefs are illogical also. However, he is going by definitions that can be changed and disproven. This entire thread is...illogical. :)How is his beliefs illogical ?Here is a God, here is a gap, can you figure out where the God should go ? I'll give you a hint, it goes in the gap."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012Posted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:56:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication.lol I am just pointing out to this 'rational thinker' that his beliefs are illogical also. However, he is going by definitions that can be changed and disproven. This entire thread is...illogical. :)How is his beliefs illogical ?Here is a God, here is a gap, can you figure out where the God should go ? I'll give you a hint, it goes in the gap.Imagine with me...a black abyss of absolutely...nothing. Next, imagine this nothing magically exploding and making everything...yep...it's illogical..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 1,517 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:00:11 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)Talk about a false dichotomy. Who's saying we were an accident?
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:00:26 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:53:12 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:38:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:Ahhhh, but can you refute it ?That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There is no reason to believe a cause and its effect can occur simultaneously.So there is no evidence of a cause and effect happening at the same time ?"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?Nahh"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:02:05 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:00:11 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)Talk about a false dichotomy. Who's saying we were an accident?Atheists unfortuanately.."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:04:08 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:56:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication.lol I am just pointing out to this 'rational thinker' that his beliefs are illogical also. However, he is going by definitions that can be changed and disproven. This entire thread is...illogical. :)How is his beliefs illogical ?Here is a God, here is a gap, can you figure out where the God should go ? I'll give you a hint, it goes in the gap.Imagine with me...a black abyss of absolutely...nothing. Next, imagine this nothing magically exploding and making everything...yep...it's illogical...Imagine a timeless person who just decides universe and boom, there it is, a universe from nothing cause I choose it.........yep.........its..............."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:05:56 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?NahhHow about a combination of non intentional and non random events ?"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:08:11 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:04:08 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:56:03 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:47:40 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)If we don't know the answer to something the answer is God did it.Tide does in, tides goes out, never a mis-communication.lol I am just pointing out to this 'rational thinker' that his beliefs are illogical also. However, he is going by definitions that can be changed and disproven. This entire thread is...illogical. :)How is his beliefs illogical ?Here is a God, here is a gap, can you figure out where the God should go ? I'll give you a hint, it goes in the gap.Imagine with me...a black abyss of absolutely...nothing. Next, imagine this nothing magically exploding and making everything...yep...it's illogical...Imagine a timeless person who just decides universe and boom, there it is, a universe from nothing cause I choose it.........yep.........its...............0+0=/=1,000,000 :P"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:09:09 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:05:56 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?NahhHow about a combination of non intentional and non random events ?If it is not intentional then it is random. :P"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:12:02 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:09:09 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:05:56 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?NahhHow about a combination of non intentional and non random events ?If it is not intentional then it is random. :PNo, something can be non intentional but also not random, eg a leafs blows in the wind and falls on a certain spot. Now the fact that it fell on that spot is it totally random ? no."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 1,058 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:14:01 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:12:02 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:09:09 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:05:56 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?NahhHow about a combination of non intentional and non random events ?If it is not intentional then it is random. :PNo, something can be non intentional but also not random, eg a leafs blows in the wind and falls on a certain spot. Now the fact that it fell on that spot is it totally random ? no.Of course it is it could have blown anywhere."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1 Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
 Posts: 4,008 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:19:45 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/6/2012 12:14:01 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:12:02 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:09:09 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:05:56 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/6/2012 12:00:59 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:58:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:55:22 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:52:00 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:46:01 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:Question: What created time? What started the Big Bang? How does everything come from nothing? :)I don't know :) Do you?Proper reasoning says that we obviously can't be an accident. So I would say...a divine clock maker. :)How about a blind watch maker ?NahhHow about a combination of non intentional and non random events ?If it is not intentional then it is random. :PNo, something can be non intentional but also not random, eg a leafs blows in the wind and falls on a certain spot. Now the fact that it fell on that spot is it totally random ? no.Of course it is it could have blown anywhere.Lack of intent does not equal random. There are other factors at play which determined where the leaf would end up, non intentional factors, thus non intentional and not random.Just because there are different possible outcomes does not equate to randomness."Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
 Posts: 872 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 12:31:11 AMPosted: 4 years agoLol, so God couldn't have created time, because to create time, he would have had to already have created time?Your argument relies too heavily on your definition of "cause".Obviously God existed prior to time. Which means that he really didn't actually exist prior to time, because there was no "prior". There was no timeline meaning that there was no future date for him to exist before. As an omnipotent being transcendent of time, it simply does not follow that God could not cause anything to exist simply because he would have not existed before anything. The matter of existing "before" anything is simply irrelevant because there was no timeline in existence for God to exist before or after. As WLC states, at best you could claim that God caused the universe at the same time the universe came into existence.Personally, I'm not entirely well versed in how gravity, matter, and time are related. But I do know that gravity and time are relative to each other. To me this suggests that without the existence of matter, time would be in essence unhindered. Perhaps even limitless. Honestly, I think it's a fascinating puzzle that if anyone knows more about I'd be happy to learn more.So yeah, your argument rests too heavily on one specific definition of the word "cause"."I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
 Posts: 6,071 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 1:27:41 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 11:38:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:At 3/5/2012 11:06:58 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:At 3/5/2012 10:58:56 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:William Craig at the 5:50 min mark. Responds to the claim the universe can't have a cause.How does he manage to say these things without laughing?Ahhhh, but can you refute it ? Refutation granted v1.0If cause and effect are not in time. This means they happen synonymously, and thus there is no way to distinguish either or. We lose our demarcation factor of which is the cause and with is the effect. And so god feels the sharpness of the Fools blade. AKA Modernized Occum`s razor."The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
 Posts: 12,232 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 3/6/2012 1:54:57 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 3/5/2012 10:35:25 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:I think it's a little premature to say nothing could have predated the Big Bang.Lrn2Read. He said that the cause cannot be timeless. He didnt say there is nothing before the Big Bang."Far from being a paranoid or a determinist, the conspiracy analyst is a praxeologist; that is, he believes that people act purposively, that they make conscious choices to employ means in order to arrive at goals." -- Murray Rothbard, 'The Conspiracy Theory of History Revisited,' Reason, 1977 "Scholarship is essentially confirming your early paranoia through a deeper factual analysis." -- Murray Rothbard, Polytechnic University lecture