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Paradox of the stone and the Christian God

IFLYHIGH
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3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?
logicrules
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3/6/2012 11:07:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Not quite...bad translation and lacks an understanding of Paul.
IFLYHIGH
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3/6/2012 11:16:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:07:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Not quite...bad translation and lacks an understanding of Paul.

I have been told before that this is a bad translation before but not why it is a bad translation. Where does my understanding of Christian God go wrong?
joneszj
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3/6/2012 11:23:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Gods omnipotence is part (an attribute) of Gods nature. Hence, His omnipotence is subject to His nature. God cannot do something that violates His own nature. for example God cannot lie, or cease to exist, etc.

The easiest way I would answer this is that the rock would have to be bigger then God. Because God is infinite the rock would then have to be infinite. But, a rock by nature is finite and therefor logically impossible for it to be infinite. It is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size and therefor the question is at fault.
IFLYHIGH
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3/6/2012 11:41:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:23:55 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Gods omnipotence is part (an attribute) of Gods nature. Hence, His omnipotence is subject to His nature. God cannot do something that violates His own nature. for example God cannot lie, or cease to exist, etc.

The easiest way I would answer this is that the rock would have to be bigger then God. Because God is infinite the rock would then have to be infinite. But, a rock by nature is finite and therefor logically impossible for it to be infinite. It is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size and therefor the question is at fault.

If it is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size, then God cannot make a stone that is to heavy for him to lift, therefore he is still not omnipotent. Is my reasoning correct?
Atheism
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3/6/2012 12:15:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:41:04 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Just gonna stop this before we have 50 people facerolling against their keyboards.
An impenetrable shield and a sword that peentrates everything cannot logically exist in the same world or universe. They are mutually exclusive. Either one exists, or the other.
If a sword can pierce the shield, it isn't unpierceable. If the shield can reflect the sword, the sword does not penetrate anything.
Again, they cannot exist in the same universe.
Apply this to the stone 'paradox', and you have your answer.
Next.
I miss the old members.
johnnyboy54
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3/6/2012 12:35:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:41:04 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:23:55 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Gods omnipotence is part (an attribute) of Gods nature. Hence, His omnipotence is subject to His nature. God cannot do something that violates His own nature. for example God cannot lie, or cease to exist, etc.

The easiest way I would answer this is that the rock would have to be bigger then God. Because God is infinite the rock would then have to be infinite. But, a rock by nature is finite and therefor logically impossible for it to be infinite. It is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size and therefor the question is at fault.

If it is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size, then God cannot make a stone that is to heavy for him to lift, therefore he is still not omnipotent. Is my reasoning correct?

No because the situation you are describing is a logical contradiction. It describes a situation that cannot exist in any reality where God is present. Most Christians hold God has maximally omnipotent, meaning he can do anything logically possible. Many people take it to mean that God can do anything, but it isn't so.

But what can God not create or do? Well as jones previously stated, God cannot do anything that is against his nature. That means God cannot use his power to make himself non omnipotent, omniscience, ect. He also cannot create an item that cannot logically exist (the infinite in size rock). "Nonsense does not become sense just because you add God."

Another possibility is that God is not bound by the rules of logic. What this means it that God can create the impossibly heavy stone and then proceed to lift it. This does not make him non-omnipotent because now God is not bound by the rule of non-contradiction. If God is bound by and principle of logic, then how can arguments that rely on logic disprove him?

Here are some debates that argue it much better than I ever could. They both are strong Christian debaters you may want to challenge.

http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
IFLYHIGH
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3/6/2012 1:28:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 12:35:21 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:41:04 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:23:55 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Gods omnipotence is part (an attribute) of Gods nature. Hence, His omnipotence is subject to His nature. God cannot do something that violates His own nature. for example God cannot lie, or cease to exist, etc.

The easiest way I would answer this is that the rock would have to be bigger then God. Because God is infinite the rock would then have to be infinite. But, a rock by nature is finite and therefor logically impossible for it to be infinite. It is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size and therefor the question is at fault.

If it is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size, then God cannot make a stone that is to heavy for him to lift, therefore he is still not omnipotent. Is my reasoning correct?

No because the situation you are describing is a logical contradiction. It describes a situation that cannot exist in any reality where God is present. Most Christians hold God has maximally omnipotent, meaning he can do anything logically possible. Many people take it to mean that God can do anything, but it isn't so.

But what can God not create or do? Well as jones previously stated, God cannot do anything that is against his nature. That means God cannot use his power to make himself non omnipotent, omniscience, ect. He also cannot create an item that cannot logically exist (the infinite in size rock). "Nonsense does not become sense just because you add God."

Another possibility is that God is not bound by the rules of logic. What this means it that God can create the impossibly heavy stone and then proceed to lift it. This does not make him non-omnipotent because now God is not bound by the rule of non-contradiction. If God is bound by and principle of logic, then how can arguments that rely on logic disprove him?

Here are some debates that argue it much better than I ever could. They both are strong Christian debaters you may want to challenge.

http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...

@atheism but that is exactly why God is a contradiction, I have shown the above scripture that shows why he can do both.
@Johnnyboy54 The paradox of the stone does not show how God does not make himself omnipotent, but how he was never omnipotent in the first place. And you just furthered my point when you said God "cannot" create a rock infinite in size. If there is something that god cannot do, then he isn't omnipotent. And how does creating a rock so heavy he cannot lift it go against his nature? If being omnipotent is in his nature, the I have shown how he cannot logically exist. Either he is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous wil" or he is not. The only explanation that makes sense is that God does not follow the laws of logic which is beyond my comprehension of understanding; that is a subject that would take my awhile to understand. As for debating, I already got killed in my debate with KRFournier and think I'm going to take a time out to understand these arguments better before I take another debate on about God.
Atheism
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3/7/2012 10:05:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 1:28:03 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote
No.
The scripture above does not indicate nor imply that god can do things that are logically impossible.
Can anyone make or think of a a square circle? No.
Even if you were omnipotent in every fashion, you do not hold the capacity to do the logically impossible, and the above scripture does not explicitly state that he can.

There are plenty of flaws in the bible, but this isn't one.
I miss the old members.
DakotaKrafick
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3/7/2012 3:13:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The paradox of the stone, in its most basic form, asks "Can God do something that God can't do?"

It shows that God is not above all things, including logical absurdities, but most theists who have bothered thinking about their beliefs agree that God is not maximally omnipotent (capable of everything, including logical absurdities) but traditionally omnipotent (or whatever other word "traditionally" should be, I forgot).
joneszj
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3/7/2012 3:53:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:41:04 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:23:55 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

Gods omnipotence is part (an attribute) of Gods nature. Hence, His omnipotence is subject to His nature. God cannot do something that violates His own nature. for example God cannot lie, or cease to exist, etc.

The easiest way I would answer this is that the rock would have to be bigger then God. Because God is infinite the rock would then have to be infinite. But, a rock by nature is finite and therefor logically impossible for it to be infinite. It is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size and therefor the question is at fault.

If it is logically impossible for a rock to be infinite in size, then God cannot make a stone that is to heavy for him to lift, therefore he is still not omnipotent. Is my reasoning correct?

omnipotent (ɒmˈnɪpətənt)

— adj
1.having very great or unlimited power

I don't see being able to not do what is logically impossible as being not omnipotent. If you do then yes you could claim that God is not omnipotent. Because of this discrepency over time the term has been defined differently to identify different modes. One I see often on ddo is maximally omnipotent which is synonomous to saying that an omnipotent being can do anything (logical/illogical), but that is generally not how Christians use the term.
PeacefulChaos
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3/7/2012 4:33:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/6/2012 11:01:11 AM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
According to Ephesians 1:11-12, it says that God is "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". This would mean that he is omnipotent right? Or at least omnipotent in the sense that he can't do anything that goes against his righteous will such as lie or hate. But can a Christian God create a stone so heavy he can't lift it? If yes, then he isn't omnipotent. If no, then there he is still not omnipotent. So, does the paradox of the stone argument still apply to a Christian God?

As people have stated previously before, this depends on what you mean by omnipotent. Some view God as being able to anything within the realms of logic. If this is the case, then the stone paradox does not apply to him, because it is a logical contradiction.

However, even if God was omnipotent and was above the realms of logic, this argument would still fail. If God were truly and fully omnipotent, then he would be able to create a rock so big that he can and cannot lift it at the same time, because he is above logic itself and is in complete control.

It sounds like a messed up answer, but when you ask a paradoxical question, you're going to get a paradoxical answer, lol.
JaxsonRaine
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3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
tBoonePickens
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3/7/2012 6:33:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.

There's no difference: omnipotent IS most powerful.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
JaxsonRaine
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3/7/2012 6:45:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:33:36 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.

There's no difference: omnipotent IS most powerful.

There can be.

If you say omnipotent = able to do anything, then you have a paradox.

If you say omnipotent = most powerful, you don't.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
tBoonePickens
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3/7/2012 6:57:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:45:25 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:33:36 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.

There's no difference: omnipotent IS most powerful.

There can be.

If you say omnipotent = able to do anything, then you have a paradox.
And you would also be wrong. Omnipotence is not a contradiction; defining it as such is in itself a contradiction.

If you say omnipotent = most powerful, you don't.
And you would be correctly defining it. However, I prefer to say that omnipotence = the ability to do all that is doable.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
JaxsonRaine
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3/7/2012 7:01:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:57:21 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:45:25 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:33:36 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.

There's no difference: omnipotent IS most powerful.

There can be.

If you say omnipotent = able to do anything, then you have a paradox.
And you would also be wrong. Omnipotence is not a contradiction; defining it as such is in itself a contradiction.

It is a contradiction.

If God can do anything, then he can make a stone too heavy to lift.
But, if he can't lift it, he can't do anything.

For God to be able to do anything, he must be able to contradict himself.

If you say omnipotent = most powerful, you don't.
And you would be correctly defining it. However, I prefer to say that omnipotence = the ability to do all that is doable.

That's fine too, but that's not the same as the ability to do anything.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
OberHerr
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3/7/2012 8:48:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why does he have to conform to what our minds can comprehend, if he is all-powerful?
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phantom
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3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God has to follow logic.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OberHerr
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3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?
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phantom
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3/7/2012 9:39:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

I thought of something after I posted that so I'm undecided now.

But...The laws of logic come from God. Therefore the question would rest on whether God can go against His own laws.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
johnnyboy54
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3/7/2012 9:53:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:33:36 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:10:52 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I don't consider God as omnipotent in that sense. I consider him 'most powerful'. There's no paradox that way.

There's no difference: omnipotent IS most powerful.

Yep
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
OberHerr
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3/7/2012 9:56:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 9:39:13 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

I thought of something after I posted that so I'm undecided now.

But...The laws of logic come from God. Therefore the question would rest on whether God can go against His own laws.

Which, him being omnipotent, and the fact that he wrote the laws, says that he should be able to.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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phantom
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3/7/2012 10:03:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 9:56:11 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:39:13 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

I thought of something after I posted that so I'm undecided now.

But...The laws of logic come from God. Therefore the question would rest on whether God can go against His own laws.

Which, him being omnipotent, and the fact that he wrote the laws, says that he should be able to.

It really depends on what define omnipotent as.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
IFLYHIGH
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3/7/2012 10:14:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@JaxsonRaine That seems to be what it comes down to. But this goes back to the scripture I first pointed out "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". How could this mean anything but omnipotent in the sense he has unlimited power? Since omnipotence itself is a paradox, then anything defined as omnipotent would be a paradox too, right? @Atheism says that the scriptures doesn't say God cannot do both. how does the scripture above negate either question posed in the paradox of the stone? My argument could be presented as
P1)Omnipotence ias defined as having unlimited power is a paradox
P2)Therfore, anything defined as omnipotent is a paradox
P3)The Christian God is defined as omnipotence with unlimited power.
P4)God is omnipotent and therfore does not exist
As I said earlier, the only way I see to refute this is to say the laws of logic are variant and are not absolute, that God can change them. But if that is true, then knowledge is relevant and therefore we can never "prove" or "disprove" anything.
JaxsonRaine
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3/7/2012 10:14:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

Can God make a rule that He can't break?

See, you CANT say God can do anything, full stop. 'Anything' includes things like paradoxes, meaning God can do things that God can't do.

If you say God can do anything that can be done, then you have no paradoxes.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
IFLYHIGH
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3/7/2012 10:17:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 10:14:31 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

Can God make a rule that He can't break?

See, you CANT say God can do anything, full stop. 'Anything' includes things like paradoxes, meaning God can do things that God can't do.

If you say God can do anything that can be done, then you have no paradoxes.
But that just opens a whole new can of worms as I said in my last paragraph
JaxsonRaine
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3/7/2012 10:29:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 10:14:24 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
@JaxsonRaine That seems to be what it comes down to. But this goes back to the scripture I first pointed out "working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will". How could this mean anything but omnipotent in the sense he has unlimited power?

Why does it have to mean omnipotent in the 'anything' sense?

It just says 'working all things'. All things fall into the 'anything that can be done' category just fine.

There are indeed scriptures you could interpret to mean 'anything', but there are not scriptures that can only be interpreted that way.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
phantom
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3/7/2012 10:29:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 10:14:31 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:12:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/7/2012 9:00:04 PM, phantom wrote:
God has to follow logic.

Why? If he is all powerful, can't he just defy logic?

Can God make a rule that He can't break?

See, you CANT say God can do anything, full stop. 'Anything' includes things like paradoxes, meaning God can do things that God can't do.

If you say God can do anything that can be done, then you have no paradoxes.

Let me play devils advocate for one second and realize I am talking out of theory.

The source of all logic equals what? God. Therefore all logical laws come from God. Now the question is, is God bound by logic, or is logic bound by God? To say God is bound by logic would seem to be self-refuting, for God is the source of logic. And if God is not the source of logic than where did logic come from? Therefore God was able to create laws of logic. Therefore God is able to create laws of logic. Therefore God is able to change laws of logic. With the current laws of logic God CANNOT perform this. However the laws of logic are dependent on God therefore God may change logic.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)