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The story of Justice.

GodSands
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3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.
WriterDave
Posts: 934
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3/7/2012 6:31:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If his parents had total and absolute knowledge of and power over every future action the child would commit, then you're darned right they should be arrested.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/7/2012 6:39:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

Woah. Wait. Seriously? You've NEVER heard anyone question a court judgement. NEVER?!

OJ Simpson
Michael Jackson
Casey Anthony
There are tons of debates on this very site that deal with whether or not a sentence or conviction handed down by a court was correct.


In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet.

Ok, so there are two scenarios here. Either A) you live under a rock; or B) you are artificially portraying man-made justice as unquestioned just to fit whatever argument you are making. It really seems like the latter here.

They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Your point is pure artifice. If you really don't think people question and criticize man-made justice systems, pick up a friggin newspaper.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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3/8/2012 2:39:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:31:00 PM, WriterDave wrote:
If his parents had total and absolute knowledge of and power over every future action the child would commit, then you're darned right they should be arrested.

In some sense a parent does have that power, as a parent can make their child into who they want, by the up bringing. You have to think why a criminal has become a criminal instead of just looking at the actual crime it's self, and by doing so, one might see that the blame may be on another instead of the person to did the crime in action.
WriterDave
Posts: 934
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3/8/2012 3:14:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 2:39:58 AM, GodSands wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:31:00 PM, WriterDave wrote:
If his parents had total and absolute knowledge of and power over every future action the child would commit, then you're darned right they should be arrested.

In some sense

And that's where the discussion ends, at the phrase "in some sense." The most controlling, domineering, detail-oriented parent could never have the same level of input into the future of a human as an omniscient, omnipotent being.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Edit To Civilize, with FAQs: http://bit.ly...
Insult Ownership: http://bit.ly...
Haters: http://bit.ly...

"I said you are a fake, a phony, and a fraud, but that doesn't mean I think you're putting on an act." --Innomen
GodSands
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3/8/2012 11:53:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 6:22:12 AM, logicrules wrote:
There is no Justice in law only an attempt at fairness.

Justice is the fulfilling of fairness. You might be right on that one there.
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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3/8/2012 12:38:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

Our man-made justice system is very flawed, too. Happy now?

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

While I don't believe an omniscient deity contradicts free will, I do believe an omniscient, omnipotent deity who created all humans contradicts free will.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement.

How? The judges and jury in the court are not omniscient or omnipotent, and they didn't create all humans... the two scenarios are pretty incomparable.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

I don't blame God for anything. I don't believe in God. My main problem with "divine judgement" isn't that we don't have free will, but that finite crimes are only deserving of finite punishments. So if you believe only in some kind of temporal purgatory, then fine. But if you believe in an eternal Hell, then that's messed up.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/8/2012 6:34:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Let me get this right. God makes people (Adam and Eve) who don't have a knowledge of good and evil and then tests them will a forbidden tree. When these people who don't have a clue about good and evil are tricked by the devil to eat from the fruit; them and the rest of us are punished.

Why make rules that are dumb anyway? Would a perfect just God do that? Why make them not eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So because of this, we all now deserve to be tortured for infinity.

First, don't you think that is a pretty harsh punishment to just being imperfect? And is it right to punish people with torture?

Well, then God fixes the problem by having an innocent person (Jesus) punished and so somehow we are forgiven. How does that help? Why not just forgive us? And isn't it unjust to punish an innocent person and let the guilty go free?

Well, now Jesus dies for us, but we are held to some requirements. One of these requirement is faith. How reasonable it is to require that people have faith in him if he doesn't even provide evidence for his deity-ship. Why punish people of other religions? Isn't the really important thing is to just be a good person?

With all this, how can you call God just?
logicrules
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3/8/2012 6:46:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 6:34:21 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Let me get this right. God makes people (Adam and Eve) who don't have a knowledge of good and evil and then tests them will a forbidden tree. When these people who don't have a clue about good and evil are tricked by the devil to eat from the fruit; them and the rest of us are punished.

Why make rules that are dumb anyway? Would a perfect just God do that? Why make them not eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So because of this, we all now deserve to be tortured for infinity.

First, don't you think that is a pretty harsh punishment to just being imperfect? And is it right to punish people with torture?

Well, then God fixes the problem by having an innocent person (Jesus) punished and so somehow we are forgiven. How does that help? Why not just forgive us? And isn't it unjust to punish an innocent person and let the guilty go free?

Well, now Jesus dies for us, but we are held to some requirements. One of these requirement is faith. How reasonable it is to require that people have faith in him if he doesn't even provide evidence for his deity-ship. Why punish people of other religions? Isn't the really important thing is to just be a good person?

With all this, how can you call God just?

Your theology is goofy, and held by no religion of which I am aware. With that theology, their god is goofy.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/8/2012 8:57:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 6:46:15 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/8/2012 6:34:21 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Let me get this right. God makes people (Adam and Eve) who don't have a knowledge of good and evil and then tests them will a forbidden tree. When these people who don't have a clue about good and evil are tricked by the devil to eat from the fruit; them and the rest of us are punished.

Why make rules that are dumb anyway? Would a perfect just God do that? Why make them not eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So because of this, we all now deserve to be tortured for infinity.

First, don't you think that is a pretty harsh punishment to just being imperfect? And is it right to punish people with torture?

Well, then God fixes the problem by having an innocent person (Jesus) punished and so somehow we are forgiven. How does that help? Why not just forgive us? And isn't it unjust to punish an innocent person and let the guilty go free?

Well, now Jesus dies for us, but we are held to some requirements. One of these requirement is faith. How reasonable it is to require that people have faith in him if he doesn't even provide evidence for his deity-ship. Why punish people of other religions? Isn't the really important thing is to just be a good person?

With all this, how can you call God just?

Your theology is goofy, and held by no religion of which I am aware. With that theology, their god is goofy.

You have got to be more specific.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/9/2012 1:42:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If a free autonomous agent controls a knife and stabs someone with said knife, then it is the autonomous agent's fault, not the knife.

If a free autonomous agent coerces another agent to the degree that they are no longer making their own decisions, then the second subordinate agent becomes a tool, or a "knife".

If a free autonomous God coerces a free autonomous agent etc. etc.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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3/9/2012 5:48:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 8:57:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/8/2012 6:46:15 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/8/2012 6:34:21 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Let me get this right. God makes people (Adam and Eve) who don't have a knowledge of good and evil and then tests them will a forbidden tree. When these people who don't have a clue about good and evil are tricked by the devil to eat from the fruit; them and the rest of us are punished.

Why make rules that are dumb anyway? Would a perfect just God do that? Why make them not eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So because of this, we all now deserve to be tortured for infinity.

First, don't you think that is a pretty harsh punishment to just being imperfect? And is it right to punish people with torture?

Well, then God fixes the problem by having an innocent person (Jesus) punished and so somehow we are forgiven. How does that help? Why not just forgive us? And isn't it unjust to punish an innocent person and let the guilty go free?

Well, now Jesus dies for us, but we are held to some requirements. One of these requirement is faith. How reasonable it is to require that people have faith in him if he doesn't even provide evidence for his deity-ship. Why punish people of other religions? Isn't the really important thing is to just be a good person?

With all this, how can you call God just?

Your theology is goofy, and held by no religion of which I am aware. With that theology, their god is goofy.

You have got to be more specific.

That is some really goofy theology, real goofy.
logicrules
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3/9/2012 6:33:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/8/2012 8:57:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/8/2012 6:46:15 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/8/2012 6:34:21 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/7/2012 6:25:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
I have heard many speak about the unfairness of a divine judgement upon Man. But rarely have I heard anyone question the unfairness of a court judgement upon a man. Both are meant to be just and righteous.

In both cases, divine and non-divine, one will be punished if proven guilty. It seems that people never question the system of justice that we have here on our planet. They accept it as fair, and most of all right and just. In turn, on the other side of the stick, we hear from the sceptic that the divine judgement is unfair based on the absolution that God, the deity, knew exactly what one will do during their life, hence God knew prior the you, me or anyone else may go to hell or heaven.

The argument from the sceptic goes like so; because God is all knowing, God purposely created someone to ultimately go to hell, thus that person is not judged fairly.

But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth. One could easily argue that all the courts on earth are corrupt, by applying the exact same principle as one may to the notion of divine judgement. A criminal is brought into court, evidence has already been given against the favor of the criminal. Right away you would expect that the criminal will be jailed. However with the same light as one would question a divine, by saying, you can't judge be based on the understanding that I have no power of what actions I do, one likewise in court could say, this man isn't guilty because of the way he was brought up, if anything you ought to arrest his parents for their bad child raising methods. One could continue to say, you shouldn't sentence this man, since his parents weren't rich enough to sent him to school to give him an education, and because of that, he got involved in gangs and bank robberies.

I hope you see my point. It is easy to blame another, even more easy to blame someone that you cannot see.

Let me get this right. God makes people (Adam and Eve) who don't have a knowledge of good and evil and then tests them will a forbidden tree. When these people who don't have a clue about good and evil are tricked by the devil to eat from the fruit; them and the rest of us are punished.

Why make rules that are dumb anyway? Would a perfect just God do that? Why make them not eat from a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So because of this, we all now deserve to be tortured for infinity.

First, don't you think that is a pretty harsh punishment to just being imperfect? And is it right to punish people with torture?

Well, then God fixes the problem by having an innocent person (Jesus) punished and so somehow we are forgiven. How does that help? Why not just forgive us? And isn't it unjust to punish an innocent person and let the guilty go free?

Well, now Jesus dies for us, but we are held to some requirements. One of these requirement is faith. How reasonable it is to require that people have faith in him if he doesn't even provide evidence for his deity-ship. Why punish people of other religions? Isn't the really important thing is to just be a good person?

With all this, how can you call God just?

Your theology is goofy, and held by no religion of which I am aware. With that theology, their god is goofy.

You have got to be more specific.

Theology is specific.
logicrules
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3/9/2012 7:22:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Since some here know nothing about theology I shall pick a specific and use it as an example.

The story of Adam and Eve. It is just a story. When any use it for a theological construct they show their ignorance of theology. It has one point, and only one, that point is God Created, nothing else. No rules, no garden, no talking snakes, no apple, no rib pulling, no fig leaves, no knowledge of good and evil, etc. Thus any conclusion based on above referenced story is nonsense.

There are three tradition found in genesis, each with its own style. The above story is a Y tradition and is well known to be a myth, as was their preferred method. This can be contrasted with the E tradition , concerned more with "just the facts", contrasted again with the P concerned with laws. At the time the Israelites were, in all probability, polytheists, arguing for the supremacy of their God. hence, the story is what today we would call plagiarism, but for ancient people just a story for effect.
Floid
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3/9/2012 8:18:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
[quote]But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth.[/quote]

Great, lets do that. Here is divine justice applied to the courts here on Earth.

The people versus Child Rapist/Murderer:
Judge: "Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer, if you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer: "Ohh, judge you are so great, I love you."
Judge: "You are free to go."

The people versus some guy who really hasn't done anything awful in his life:
Judge: "Mr. Normal guy, you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Normal Guy: "Why would you torture me? I haven't done anything to deserve that.".
Judge: "Do you dare question me?"
Mr. Normal Guy: "Well, yeah... why do you want to torture me?"
Judge: "Bailiff, take him to eternal torture."

So no, I see no analogues between justice and the Christian idea of judgement.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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3/9/2012 10:17:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 8:18:56 AM, Floid wrote:
[quote]But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth.[/quote]

Great, lets do that. Here is divine justice applied to the courts here on Earth.

The people versus Child Rapist/Murderer:
Judge: "Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer, if you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer: "Ohh, judge you are so great, I love you."
Judge: "You are free to go."


The people versus some guy who really hasn't done anything awful in his life:
Judge: "Mr. Normal guy, you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Normal Guy: "Why would you torture me? I haven't done anything to deserve that.".
Judge: "Do you dare question me?"
Mr. Normal Guy: "Well, yeah... why do you want to torture me?"
Judge: "Bailiff, take him to eternal torture."


So no, I see no analogues between justice and the Christian idea of judgement.

Boy oh boy, and I thought the guy before had really bad theology.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/9/2012 10:44:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 8:18:56 AM, Floid wrote:
[quote]But try rethinking that, and apply it to the courts here on earth.[/quote]

Great, lets do that. Here is divine justice applied to the courts here on Earth.

The people versus Child Rapist/Murderer:
Judge: "Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer, if you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Child Rapist/Murderer: "Ohh, judge you are so great, I love you."
Judge: "You are free to go."


The people versus some guy who really hasn't done anything awful in his life:
Judge: "Mr. Normal guy, you worship me I will set you free otherwise I will eternally tortue you."
Mr. Normal Guy: "Why would you torture me? I haven't done anything to deserve that.".
Judge: "Do you dare question me?"
Mr. Normal Guy: "Well, yeah... why do you want to torture me?"
Judge: "Bailiff, take him to eternal torture."


So no, I see no analogues between justice and the Christian idea of judgement.

Interesting, how ya figure? That looks like a heck of a religion.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/9/2012 11:06:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 7:22:52 AM, logicrules wrote:
Since some here know nothing about theology I shall pick a specific and use it as an example.

The story of Adam and Eve. It is just a story. When any use it for a theological construct they show their ignorance of theology. It has one point, and only one, that point is God Created, nothing else. No rules, no garden, no talking snakes, no apple, no rib pulling, no fig leaves, no knowledge of good and evil, etc. Thus any conclusion based on above referenced story is nonsense.

There are three tradition found in genesis, each with its own style. The above story is a Y tradition and is well known to be a myth, as was their preferred method. This can be contrasted with the E tradition , concerned more with "just the facts", contrasted again with the P concerned with laws. At the time the Israelites were, in all probability, polytheists, arguing for the supremacy of their God. hence, the story is what today we would call plagiarism, but for ancient people just a story for effect.

Many people do believe in the genesis myth. My post is a response to them.

You said that people considered it just a story. How do you know that?
logicrules
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3/9/2012 11:51:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 11:06:06 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/9/2012 7:22:52 AM, logicrules wrote:
Since some here know nothing about theology I shall pick a specific and use it as an example.

The story of Adam and Eve. It is just a story. When any use it for a theological construct they show their ignorance of theology. It has one point, and only one, that point is God Created, nothing else. No rules, no garden, no talking snakes, no apple, no rib pulling, no fig leaves, no knowledge of good and evil, etc. Thus any conclusion based on above referenced story is nonsense.

There are three tradition found in genesis, each with its own style. The above story is a Y tradition and is well known to be a myth, as was their preferred method. This can be contrasted with the E tradition , concerned more with "just the facts", contrasted again with the P concerned with laws. At the time the Israelites were, in all probability, polytheists, arguing for the supremacy of their God. hence, the story is what today we would call plagiarism, but for ancient people just a story for effect.

Many people do believe in the genesis myth. My post is a response to them.

You said that people considered it just a story. How do you know that?

Historical Criticism and 500 years of biblical research. Now if you define know as first hand experience....no one knows, hence reason. I think it reasonable to hold that people, more than one person, considered it just story because of the talking snake and the borrowing of it from other societies.
Dan4reason
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3/9/2012 1:18:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 11:51:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2012 11:06:06 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/9/2012 7:22:52 AM, logicrules wrote:
Since some here know nothing about theology I shall pick a specific and use it as an example.

The story of Adam and Eve. It is just a story. When any use it for a theological construct they show their ignorance of theology. It has one point, and only one, that point is God Created, nothing else. No rules, no garden, no talking snakes, no apple, no rib pulling, no fig leaves, no knowledge of good and evil, etc. Thus any conclusion based on above referenced story is nonsense.

There are three tradition found in genesis, each with its own style. The above story is a Y tradition and is well known to be a myth, as was their preferred method. This can be contrasted with the E tradition , concerned more with "just the facts", contrasted again with the P concerned with laws. At the time the Israelites were, in all probability, polytheists, arguing for the supremacy of their God. hence, the story is what today we would call plagiarism, but for ancient people just a story for effect.

Many people do believe in the genesis myth. My post is a response to them.

You said that people considered it just a story. How do you know that?

Historical Criticism and 500 years of biblical research. Now if you define know as first hand experience....no one knows, hence reason. I think it reasonable to hold that people, more than one person, considered it just story because of the talking snake and the borrowing of it from other societies.

Just because a few intellectuals held the genesis story to be allegorical, doesn't mean the illiterate superstitious masses did. These were the same people who believed in elves and fairies.
logicrules
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3/9/2012 1:56:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/9/2012 1:18:22 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/9/2012 11:51:39 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/9/2012 11:06:06 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/9/2012 7:22:52 AM, logicrules wrote:
Since some here know nothing about theology I shall pick a specific and use it as an example.

The story of Adam and Eve. It is just a story. When any use it for a theological construct they show their ignorance of theology. It has one point, and only one, that point is God Created, nothing else. No rules, no garden, no talking snakes, no apple, no rib pulling, no fig leaves, no knowledge of good and evil, etc. Thus any conclusion based on above referenced story is nonsense.

There are three tradition found in genesis, each with its own style. The above story is a Y tradition and is well known to be a myth, as was their preferred method. This can be contrasted with the E tradition , concerned more with "just the facts", contrasted again with the P concerned with laws. At the time the Israelites were, in all probability, polytheists, arguing for the supremacy of their God. hence, the story is what today we would call plagiarism, but for ancient people just a story for effect.

Many people do believe in the genesis myth. My post is a response to them.

You said that people considered it just a story. How do you know that?

Historical Criticism and 500 years of biblical research. Now if you define know as first hand experience....no one knows, hence reason. I think it reasonable to hold that people, more than one person, considered it just story because of the talking snake and the borrowing of it from other societies.

Just because a few intellectuals held the genesis story to be allegorical, doesn't mean the illiterate superstitious masses did. These were the same people who believed in elves and fairies.

You are such an insightful twit, illiterate and superstitious who read the story...