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PRECISION: Evidence of God or Evolution

Alter2Ego
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3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"

The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"

Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography

SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
WriterDave
Posts: 934
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3/10/2012 3:05:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

1) If there was not the precise relationship that now exists, but some different relationship, then yes. If there were no relationship, then no.

2) That's two separate questions. To answer the first, I don't know and it doesn't matter, because nobody save straw-atheists made by Christians suggests that "it all happened by chance." To answer the second, as a result of the fundamental forces of universe.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/10/2012 2:02:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

You're confusing specificity with accident.

Let's say I throw a dart at a board with 1,000,000 numbers on it. A gust of wind hits the dart, and the dart sinks into 8,341.

The chances of the dart hitting that precise number is 0.00001%.

However, the chances of a dart accidentally hitting a precise number (not including the floor/wall) is 100%.
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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3/10/2012 2:20:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 5:27:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Only the fool thinks God and evolution are mutually exclusive. More nonsense, and lots of it.

For once, Logicrules and I are in agreement. It's a false dichotomy.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/10/2012 6:22:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:02:36 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

You're confusing specificity with accident.

Let's say I throw a dart at a board with 1,000,000 numbers on it. A gust of wind hits the dart, and the dart sinks into 8,341.

The chances of the dart hitting that precise number is 0.00001%.

However, the chances of a dart accidentally hitting a precise number (not including the floor/wall) is 100%.

You really are ignorant.....accidents are often very specific.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/10/2012 6:25:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 5:27:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Only the fool thinks God and evolution are mutually exclusive. More nonsense, and lots of it.

Evolution doesn't conflict with a creator or the universe, but it does conflict with a creator of human beings because Natural Selection resembles nothing intelligent.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/10/2012 6:43:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Accident: Unplanned, lack of intent.

Its not a question random vs intent. It a question of random vs intent vs unplanned but not random.

Some where while you were claiming "precision" or should we say intent of a fantastic designer, a woman died in child birth.

Is that precision of the great designer at work ? or do you just excuse that.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
logicrules
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3/10/2012 6:44:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 6:25:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/10/2012 5:27:09 AM, logicrules wrote:
Only the fool thinks God and evolution are mutually exclusive. More nonsense, and lots of it.

Evolution doesn't conflict with a creator or the universe, but it does conflict with a creator of human beings because Natural Selection resembles nothing intelligent.

How do you know how God did it?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/11/2012 2:50:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?
We still have missing numbers on the periodic table. We still have elements that we believe, exist, but havent found them yet. And then we have elements that we found that were not predicted, that were discovered by accident. So what part of this is precise, exactly?
2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

ALL of the elements are specifically related to each other and interact with each other. This is not something that is special to the first 60 elements in the periodic table. Therefore your argument fails.

And furthermore, you seem to not understand the difference between a prescriptive law and a descriptive law. The laws of man, humans, are prescriptive, they do not explain what is, but rather what ought to be true or acceptable. When they are broken, we punish those who broke the law. The laws of nature are descriptive, they are methods to which humans describe how nature exists. When they are broken, we change the laws.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/11/2012 5:43:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 6:22:04 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:02:36 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

You're confusing specificity with accident.

Let's say I throw a dart at a board with 1,000,000 numbers on it. A gust of wind hits the dart, and the dart sinks into 8,341.

The chances of the dart hitting that precise number is 0.00001%.

However, the chances of a dart accidentally hitting a precise number (not including the floor/wall) is 100%.

You really are ignorant.....accidents are often very specific.

What in my post suggests to you that I think an accident cannot be precise?

I just said that any dart hit will be precise regardless of whether it is an accident.

Perhaps you should read more carefully.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/12/2012 1:34:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/11/2012 5:43:05 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/10/2012 6:22:04 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:02:36 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

You're confusing specificity with accident.

Let's say I throw a dart at a board with 1,000,000 numbers on it. A gust of wind hits the dart, and the dart sinks into 8,341.

The chances of the dart hitting that precise number is 0.00001%.

However, the chances of a dart accidentally hitting a precise number (not including the floor/wall) is 100%.

You really are ignorant.....accidents are often very specific.

What in my post suggests to you that I think an accident cannot be precise?

I just said that any dart hit will be precise regardless of whether it is an accident.

Perhaps you should read more carefully.

The only important thing about accidents that we need to know, is that accidents can produce complexity and design.
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/13/2012 11:48:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Logic based upon the dismissal of evidence is flawed logic--which is what you're bringing to the table. For instance, the first 60 elements found within the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth are so interrelated and precise that scientists refer to it as Periodic LAW. The existence of Laws aka precision indicates an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER directed the outcome.

Evidence of God's existence is dismissed every single time one ignores the complexity of the natural world. Flawed logic also results from ignorance or lack of knowledge of certain scientific facts. To avoid the trap of stubbornness, one must allow logic and evidence to interact.

The Big Bang Theory is just that--a theory, and one that will never be proven as it amounts to nothing more than speculation aka personal opinions. Nobody can explain how this theory of expanding space is an explanation for the appearance of planets with their individual gravitational fields that prevents them from crashing into each other, and the fact that certain planets work to the advantage of earth.

Without intelligent direction, things would result by chance occurrences known as accidents. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as a "nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results." As previously stated, the precision (which leaves no room for accidents) found in the world around us cries out to the existence of an intelligent, supernatural Designer or God. Things happening at random aka by accident cannot result in precision. Take, for example, the following.

Consider the earth's measurements and its location in our solar system. Earth is just the right size for our existence. If earth were slightly larger, its gravity would be stronger, with the result that hydrogen--a light gas--would not be able to escape the gravity of a bigger earth. The result? Earth's atmosphere would kill us because of the accumulation of hydrogen. On the other hand, if earth were slightly smaller, life-sustaining oxygen would escape and surface water would evaporate. In this case, we would also die.

Furthermore, the earth is at an ideal distance from the sun. Both astronomer John Barrow and mathematician Frank Tipler studied "the ratio of the Earth's radius and distance from the Sun" and concluded that human life would not exist "were this ratio slightly different from what it is observed to be." (Source: The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, by John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, copyright 1986, Oxford University Press)

In his book, Professor David L. Block wrote: "Calculations show that had the earth been situated only 5 percent closer to the sun, a runaway greenhouse effect [overheating of the earth] would have occurred about 4000 million years ago. If, on the other hand, the earth were placed only 1 percent further from the sun, runaway glaciation [huge sheets of ice covering much of the globe] would have occurred some 2000 million years ago." (Source: Our Universe: Accident Or Design? by David L. Block (1992)
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/14/2012 12:27:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/13/2012 11:48:57 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Logic based upon the dismissal of evidence is flawed logic--which is what you're bringing to the table. For instance, the first 60 elements found within the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth are so interrelated and precise that scientists refer to it as Periodic LAW. The existence of Laws aka precision indicates an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER directed the outcome.

Evidence of God's existence is dismissed every single time one ignores the complexity of the natural world. Flawed logic also results from ignorance or lack of knowledge of certain scientific facts. To avoid the trap of stubbornness, one must allow logic and evidence to interact.

The Big Bang Theory is just that--a theory, and one that will never be proven as it amounts to nothing more than speculation aka personal opinions. Nobody can explain how this theory of expanding space is an explanation for the appearance of planets with their individual gravitational fields that prevents them from crashing into each other, and the fact that certain planets work to the advantage of earth.


Without intelligent direction, things would result by chance occurrences known as accidents. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as a "nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results." As previously stated, the precision (which leaves no room for accidents) found in the world around us cries out to the existence of an intelligent, supernatural Designer or God. Things happening at random aka by accident cannot result in precision. Take, for example, the following.

Consider the earth's measurements and its location in our solar system. Earth is just the right size for our existence. If earth were slightly larger, its gravity would be stronger, with the result that hydrogen--a light gas--would not be able to escape the gravity of a bigger earth. The result? Earth's atmosphere would kill us because of the accumulation of hydrogen. On the other hand, if earth were slightly smaller, life-sustaining oxygen would escape and surface water would evaporate. In this case, we would also die.

Furthermore, the earth is at an ideal distance from the sun. Both astronomer John Barrow and mathematician Frank Tipler studied "the ratio of the Earth's radius and distance from the Sun" and concluded that human life would not exist "were this ratio slightly different from what it is observed to be." (Source: The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, by John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, copyright 1986, Oxford University Press)

In his book, Professor David L. Block wrote: "Calculations show that had the earth been situated only 5 percent closer to the sun, a runaway greenhouse effect [overheating of the earth] would have occurred about 4000 million years ago. If, on the other hand, the earth were placed only 1 percent further from the sun, runaway glaciation [huge sheets of ice covering much of the globe] would have occurred some 2000 million years ago." (Source: Our Universe: Accident Or Design? by David L. Block (1992)

"Precision (which leaves no room for accidents)."

Let's say you have a dart board with numbers between 1 and 100,000. You throw it, and a gust of wind makes it hit 42,192.

The chances of the dart hitting that number are 0.00001%. That's pretty damn precise.

So, you are wrong. Accidents can be precise.

You are committing a fairly well-known error in the teleological argument. Namely, begging the question.

Let's say things turned out different, ratios and such. Instead of our universe, we end up with a universe full of black holes in certain arrangements. Now, if you changed any of the initial conditions of this universe, ratios between elements and such, even by the SLIGHTEST amount, you don't get a bunch of black holes in neat patterns.

The argument can be made that the universe full of black holes PROVES God exists, because if things were even mildly different, you wouldn't get black holes in that arrangement. It is precise and, according to you, non-accidental.

The immediate counter is "but wait, God is only interested in making universes with humans. He doesn't give a darn about black holes."

That's where you're begging the question. You're PRESUPPOSING God intended for the universe to turn out in arrangement A and then saying "look, everything is in arrangement A and therefore God did it.

Arrangement A can be either an universe full of black holes or our universe. It could even refer to how a sentient alien species describes the universe (since they could not survive without their planet being x miles from their sun, the universe must be made for them).
Dan4reason
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3/14/2012 1:09:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

One question. What does the theory of evolution have to do with the periodic table?

I'm confused.
WriterDave
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3/14/2012 1:26:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 12:27:38 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/13/2012 11:48:57 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Logic based upon the dismissal of evidence is flawed logic--which is what you're bringing to the table. For instance, the first 60 elements found within the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth are so interrelated and precise that scientists refer to it as Periodic LAW. The existence of Laws aka precision indicates an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER directed the outcome.

I have here a red button. The red button is magic. If you push the red button, you will be teleported to a completely random location in the universe.

You press the button. You are teleported.

And then, unless your luck is literally astronomical, you die instantly.

So much for the universe being intelligently designed for our benefit.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

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Alter2Ego
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3/14/2012 2:04:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 1:09:56 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"

One question. What does the theory of evolution have to do with the periodic table?

I'm confused.

ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

The point I am making by pointing to the precision in the Periodic Table of the Elements is that evolution relies on accidental events for all the the complex life forms that exist. Complexity in the natural world (whether in the Periodic Table of the Elements or in life forms) indicates precision. That's the connection I'm making.

How can precision be the result of accidental events aka spontaneous events that happen without an intelligent person guiding the outcome? How is that possible, when, by definition, Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results."
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:04:11 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 1:09:56 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"

One question. What does the theory of evolution have to do with the periodic table?

I'm confused.

ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

The point I am making by pointing to the precision in the Periodic Table of the Elements is that evolution relies on accidental events for all the the complex life forms that exist. Complexity in the natural world (whether in the Periodic Table of the Elements or in life forms) indicates precision. That's the connection I'm making.

How can precision be the result of accidental events aka spontaneous events that happen without an intelligent person guiding the outcome? How is that possible, when, by definition, Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results."

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.
Alter2Ego
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3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Dan4reason
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3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?
Alter2Ego
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3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/14/2012 4:36:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

You mean the thread where you claim all dinosaurs are cold-blooded and that every major paleontologist in favor of evolution is knowingly deceiving the rest of the world due solely to pride (even though defecting from the conspiracy leads to exponential fame and wealth)?
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 5:36:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

Give me a response not a reading list.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/14/2012 5:51:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

We already refuted your evidence against the theory of evolution in that thread, and you turned tail and ran away.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/14/2012 5:54:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:36:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

Give me a response not a reading list.

It wouldnt matter if you read it, because we already refuted his arguments, and in the end, he had no choice but to avoid discussion by running away.

Its actually quite hilarious. He told me of a story of how he discussed this with another atheist evolutionist on another forums board, and the atheist ended up abandoning the discussion and ran away because he couldnt handle it. And then, in the same comment a couple paragraphs down, he tells me that he isnt going to respond to me anymore.
Gileandos
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3/14/2012 5:59:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:54:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/14/2012 5:36:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

Give me a response not a reading list.

It wouldnt matter if you read it, because we already refuted his arguments, and in the end, he had no choice but to avoid discussion by running away.

Its actually quite hilarious. He told me of a story of how he discussed this with another atheist evolutionist on another forums board, and the atheist ended up abandoning the discussion and ran away because he couldnt handle it. And then, in the same comment a couple paragraphs down, he tells me that he isnt going to respond to me anymore.

To be fair to Alter Ego, I find to have a conversation with you is near impossible due to a lack of common ground (concerning knowledge and epistemological approach).
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 6:20:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:54:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/14/2012 5:36:48 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 4:10:26 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:07:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 3:05:44 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 2:40:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

I don't think evolution is entirely accidental. Sure mutations are random with some being good and others being bad, but this process is guided by natural selection, which weeds out the bad mutations, and encouraging the good.


What you "think" has nothing to do with scientific reality. The scientific reality says it never happened.

In what way does it say that evolution never happened?


ALTER2EGO -to- DAN4REASON:

You will find scientific evidence against the theory by reading all of my posts in the following thread that I started. The weblink for the thread is below.

Darwin's Macro-Evolution: Why Unscientific?

http://www.debate.org...

Give me a response not a reading list.

It wouldnt matter if you read it, because we already refuted his arguments, and in the end, he had no choice but to avoid discussion by running away.

Its actually quite hilarious. He told me of a story of how he discussed this with another atheist evolutionist on another forums board, and the atheist ended up abandoning the discussion and ran away because he couldnt handle it. And then, in the same comment a couple paragraphs down, he tells me that he isnt going to respond to me anymore.

I am actually in the other board he is talking about and he is lying. We destroyed all his arguments. The thread died because he stopped posting.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/14/2012 6:24:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:59:35 PM, Gileandos wrote:
To be fair to Alter Ego, I find to have a conversation with you is near impossible due to a lack of common ground (concerning knowledge and epistemological approach).

I suppose so. I only accept evidence and valid, sound arguments, while you do not.
Gileandos
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3/14/2012 6:32:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/10/2012 2:57:15 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

For the average person, precision indicates that an intelligent person guided the outcome. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary, the word "precision" is defined as follows:

"the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"


The reverse of precision is an accident aka a spontaneous event that happen by chance with no one guiding the outcome. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as:

"a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"


Scientific evidence shows there is extreme precision in everything around us. This precision renders the evolution theory mere fiction, for precision leaves no room for error or for accidental events. Take, for example, the first discovered 60 elements on the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth. Some of these 60 elements are gases and are therefore invisible to the human eye. The atoms--from which the Earth's elements are made--are specifically related to one another. In turn, the elements--e.g. arsenic, bismuth, chromium, gold, krypton--reflect a distinct, natural numeral order based upon the structure of their atoms. This is a proven LAW.

The precision in the order of the elements made it possible for scientists such as Mendeleyev, Ramsey, Moseley, and Bohr to theorize the existence of unknown elements and their characteristics. These elements were later discovered, just as predicted. Because of the distinct numerical order of the elements, the word LAW is applied to the Periodic Table of the Elements. (Sources: (1) The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, (2) "Periodic Law," from Encyclopædia Britannica, Vol. VII, p. 878, copyright 1978, (3) The Hutchinson Dictionary of Scientific Biography


SIDE NOTE: Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the 60 elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?

2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? If we rule out an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome, how do spontaneous events aka accidents account for the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth in which the first 60 discovered elements are so precise, and so interrelated with one another, that it has been assigned the word "LAW"?

I find these questions meaningful. I thank you for this post.

I would draw out some things for clarity.
Precision and accuracy in science are two different things. For example

(To use Winopes dart board analogy roughly)
An accurate hit on a 2D Graph would be coordinates (x,y) 0,0.
Hitting 2,1 then 2,2 then 2,3 then 2,4 then 2,5 would be in a 'precise line, though it would not be accurate to 0,0. Or again, hitting around 5,5 is in a precise radius but not accurate to 0,0.

Hitting 0,1 then 1,0 then 0,0 then 1,1 all would be very close to accurate AND precise.

Hitting 0,0 five times in a row is dead on accuracy and precision.

***
How this applies, Fine-tuning is both very precise and accurate.

The necessary variables for life we will analogize to 0,0. The number of key variables will be darts or attempts. The nuclear weak, nuclear strong, electromagnetism and gravity (four darts) all strike within the margin of accuracy around 0,0.

I believe we agree the implications of this precision and accuracy is amazingly profound.

***
I believe Winope's idea that chance is relevant denies the Teleological argument.

I will repeat P1 again:

P1 The fine-tuning of the universe was either due to physical necessity, chance or design.

- We know it was not physical necessity as nothing physical existed and such a concept would violate the first physical principle. Physical necessity cannot be the cause if nothing physical existed. Illogical.

- Now this leaves chance or design:
Chance requires physicality to even work. Mere chance generates nothing. If chance did generate things all by itself without the need for physical things, then it would be generating stuff around us randomly. Much less randomly generating accurate and precise ‘things' for this universe. For example the flying spaghetti monster would pop into existence on your porch yelling for its children.

However, this clearly does not happen. Therefore, we can logically see with positive evidence and contrary evidence that chance generates nothing.

Prior to the generation of the physical universe accuracy and precision were not possible even with chance. To be clear chance could not have created the universe. Now knowing this, after God created the universe, could chance have operated? Sure, but given that we see the design necessity of the argument, then we see accurate and precise hits each time science ‘discovered' a new force. One would conclude the design argument a must.

So that asks the question, why would chance be so accurate AND so precise? Or stated differently what made chance act so much like design? It goes even further that life that is generated sees God extrinsically and is also self aware to contemplate God, or stated differently life by chance is generated under design implications that also happens to expect to see God and understands design implications.

Profound.

Given so much auxiliary evidence for God, like the Church and divine interaction a conclusion against God would be feckless.

***

I thoroughly enjoyed your post and thinking. Kudos.