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Homosexuality from a Biblical view.....

tkubok
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3/13/2012 9:54:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/13/2012 8:59:46 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/13/2012 8:41:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:


Why should I care about the Bible's view on anything?

Because the bible is the word of God, you silly dunce!

Oh wait, no it isnt. Its just some old book.
GenesisCreation
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3/14/2012 6:59:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are many reasons why you should care about the Bible, but maybe that's not the right question. Maybe you should ask:" Why do I currently not care about the Bible?"

Is the Bible a silly old book? Yes, it is. Even God calls his own words silly. However, he also said that his "foolishness" is far superior to your "wisdom".

1 Corinthians1 :18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/14/2012 7:23:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 6:59:23 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
There are many reasons why you should care about the Bible, but maybe that's not the right question. Maybe you should ask:" Why do I currently not care about the Bible?"

Is the Bible a silly old book? Yes, it is. Even God calls his own words silly. However, he also said that his "foolishness" is far superior to your "wisdom".

1 Corinthians1 :18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that.
drafterman
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3/14/2012 8:00:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 7:23:14 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/14/2012 6:59:23 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
There are many reasons why you should care about the Bible, but maybe that's not the right question. Maybe you should ask:" Why do I currently not care about the Bible?"

Is the Bible a silly old book? Yes, it is. Even God calls his own words silly. However, he also said that his "foolishness" is far superior to your "wisdom".

1 Corinthians1 :18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that.

I don't mean to sound like a d!ck here but, the answer to the question seems to be "Because the Bible says so." Well, what the Bible says only matters to me after you can show why the Bible should matter to me. That is, you can't use the Bible to prove itself. That's circular.

Let's say, for example, that you didn't have the benefit of the permeation of Christian theology all throughout Western culture and society, along with thousands of years of political, cultural, and military enforcement and propogation of that ideaology. Imagine I've never heard of Christianity or the Bible before, how would you explain to me the truth and importance of the Bible?

Just because it says so?
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/14/2012 8:19:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 6:59:23 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
There are many reasons why you should care about the Bible, but maybe that's not the right question. Maybe you should ask:" Why do I currently not care about the Bible?"

Is the Bible a silly old book? Yes, it is. Even God calls his own words silly. However, he also said that his "foolishness" is far superior to your "wisdom".

1 Corinthians1 :18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Why should anyone care about a view of the bible offered absent any stated belief theology?
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."

There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God. It belongs to him. It's not your property, it's not the collective property of all people, it's God's property.
He did not create anything just for you (or even just for us). He created everything with a single purpose. His own glory.
On a human level, that's selfish egomania. On the level of absolute deity, it's a perfectly justified action. I would expect nothing less from a completely powerful, absolute deity.
So, if everything belongs to God and serves the single purpose of glorifying him....then all things standing in opposition are justly condemned by their mere existence.
This is relevant to anything and anyone inside the construct of God's will. Essentially, everything.

The problem with this principle is the human condition. We are by nature, not subservient, totally depraved, God-hating, pleasure loving and self-seeking. Each of these qualities are justified by Humanism:

-Not Subservient- Since slavery is oppressive to human freedom, servitude to a deity must be parallel with human bondage. Therefore we argue servitude as evil.
-Total Depravity- It is our inner-most calling to gain, maintain and control power or influence over other people. While we preach against subservience, we actively seek to compete with each other, in order that we may be greater and more powerful than other people. No human being as ever been satisfied with simply living. This is evil, because a victim group will always be created through competition and it attempts to remove glory from God and shift it to mankind.
-God Hating-Since every human being is intrinsically selfish, concerned for themselves or their property, they are natural enemies of God. The creator claims your life, your property, your family, your talents.....nothing truly belongs to you and if this is true....it shatters your self-worth. It decimates your own glory. It makes you small. It makes you a creature of design. We war against this.
-Pleasure Loving- Pleasure is addictive. Good food, strong drink, exciting sexual encounters, chemical highs, power over others, comfort, security and entertainment rule everyone. Everyone! The discipline and effort it takes consume these principles without sin, is impossible to attain if you serve your self. The believer is called to eat food in a manner that says to the world:"Food is not my treasure. God is." The believer is called to have sex in a manner that says to the world:"Sex is not my treasure. God is."
Anyone can see virtue in this discipline. It's quite axiomatic, but the labor it requires is exhausting.
-Self-seeking- Whom do you serve? What masters you? Is the end result self-glorifying? Do you take noble ideas and make them self-serving? For instance: Do you raise children so that they reflect your glory? (Are you ashamed when they fail you?) Is your marriage glorifying God or is it glorifying you? (Look at my beautiful wife I have...look at the beautiful house I bought her....look at the giant ring I put on her hand....look at how good I treat her...watch me be married everyone!)

The reason the Bible matters, is because it seeks to correct this behavior. The Bible also seeks to explain why we behave this way. The Bible offers a servant's solution. God (whom we should serve) became flesh and made himself "lower than the Angels". That's the Gospel.
If God is real and he is all-powerful...imagine the wrath he can dispense. Imagine a torrent of water, infinitely high and infinitely wide...rushing at you to crush and absorb you. Then imagine the ground opening up and swallowing the infinite wrath...the endless torrent of water. Not a single drop spills on you.
That's what Christ did. God emptied the cup of his wrath on himself. He drank it all and when he was done, he turned the cup over and not a drop was left.

If the Bible matters in any sense....it's that it offers absolution, redemption, hope and indescribable mercy. Why would the Bible matter to you? It matters because you're guilty.
You may say you're not deserving of this wrath, but if I had a DVD with you life on it. Every moment, every thought...every action....and I displayed it on a big screen for all to see, you would run in shame and never show your face again. The depravity, the nasty,vile, disgraceful actions of every man and woman are offensive and criminal.
Yet the only unforgivable sin is the blaspheming of the Holy spirit. (Christ came by the holy spirit, worked by the holy spirit and died and returned by the holy spirit. If we deny Jesus Christ, we blaspheme the holy spirit. The only unforgivable sin, is not accepting Christ. That's a small list of sins.)

You may not believe in God, you may not want to worship God, you may have tried before and failed. Well, it's not up to you. You get on your knees, you pray for God to save you...and if he doesn't, you keep asking until he does. Even if you never feel the hand of mercy on your shoulder, you keep asking...because he is God and he is worthy of worship, even if he doesn't save you.

The good news is, he will save you. If you cry for his mercy, he will save you. He promised he would. The evidence of this....is a renewed heart. By no control or action of your own...you will begin to change and desire spiritual things. Sin will become increasingly more offensive, God will become increasingly more appealing. Eventually, you will break and begin to serve and worship with all you might and you have no control over this. I urge you to seek the Kingdom. He will answer you with very personal evidence.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
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3/14/2012 9:29:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 8:19:29 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 3/14/2012 6:59:23 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
There are many reasons why you should care about the Bible, but maybe that's not the right question. Maybe you should ask:" Why do I currently not care about the Bible?"

Is the Bible a silly old book? Yes, it is. Even God calls his own words silly. However, he also said that his "foolishness" is far superior to your "wisdom".

1 Corinthians1 :18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Why should anyone care about a view of the bible offered absent any stated belief theology?

I'm not sure I follow your objection. Why should you care about a "view" of the bible....if a stated "belief theology" is missing? What does that mean exactly? It's a little confusing. Could you provide an example?

Now, I'm not trying to provide a view of the Bible. This isn't a cult introduction and I don't need to read the Bible for you. I'm trying to get you to read the Bible for yourself.
I'm also not sure what a "stated belief theology" refers to. Theology is the study of the nature of God and his doctrine. Belief is the willful acceptance of the doctrine. Belief and theology are separate. If you're attempting to say that the Bible has no doctrinal value or fails to state a set of theological principles...then you haven't read the Bible. If you want doctrine, dive into Leviticus. That book will make your head spin with "stated doctrine". If I missed your point, I'm sorry. Please clarify.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 9:30:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:19:34 AM, joneszj wrote:
Gotta love them Reformed folk! Do I sense a little bit of Paul Washer there GC? Hearing the gospel just feels me up with joy!

Paul Washer is a Titan! Yea, his preaching is a direct influence on my doctrinal view. I draw from his sermons often.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
joneszj
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3/14/2012 9:31:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:30:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:19:34 AM, joneszj wrote:
Gotta love them Reformed folk! Do I sense a little bit of Paul Washer there GC? Hearing the gospel just feels me up with joy!

Paul Washer is a Titan! Yea, his preaching is a direct influence on my doctrinal view. I draw from his sermons often.

Same here!
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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3/14/2012 9:43:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have a gay "friend" on Facebook. I won't identify him, let's just call him Gary…actually, no, I've got more than one friend called Gary, let's just call him Mr Woollett instead.

I have a question: now that I know he is dysfunctional, unnatural sinner in the eyes of the Lord, would the advice of Christians be that I:

a) delete him, or;
b) try and reform him by sending him pictures of naked women in sexually-provocative poses?
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/14/2012 9:47:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."


There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God. It belongs to him. It's not your property, it's not the collective property of all people, it's God's property.
He did not create anything just for you (or even just for us). He created everything with a single purpose. His own glory.
On a human level, that's selfish egomania. On the level of absolute deity, it's a perfectly justified action. I would expect nothing less from a completely powerful, absolute deity.
So, if everything belongs to God and serves the single purpose of glorifying him....then all things standing in opposition are justly condemned by their mere existence.
This is relevant to anything and anyone inside the construct of God's will. Essentially, everything.

The problem with this principle is the human condition. We are by nature, not subservient, totally depraved, God-hating, pleasure loving and self-seeking. Each of these qualities are justified by Humanism:

-Not Subservient- Since slavery is oppressive to human freedom, servitude to a deity must be parallel with human bondage. Therefore we argue servitude as evil.
-Total Depravity- It is our inner-most calling to gain, maintain and control power or influence over other people. While we preach against subservience, we actively seek to compete with each other, in order that we may be greater and more powerful than other people. No human being as ever been satisfied with simply living. This is evil, because a victim group will always be created through competition and it attempts to remove glory from God and shift it to mankind.
-God Hating-Since every human being is intrinsically selfish, concerned for themselves or their property, they are natural enemies of God. The creator claims your life, your property, your family, your talents.....nothing truly belongs to you and if this is true....it shatters your self-worth. It decimates your own glory. It makes you small. It makes you a creature of design. We war against this.
-Pleasure Loving- Pleasure is addictive. Good food, strong drink, exciting sexual encounters, chemical highs, power over others, comfort, security and entertainment rule everyone. Everyone! The discipline and effort it takes consume these principles without sin, is impossible to attain if you serve your self. The believer is called to eat food in a manner that says to the world:"Food is not my treasure. God is." The believer is called to have sex in a manner that says to the world:"Sex is not my treasure. God is."
Anyone can see virtue in this discipline. It's quite axiomatic, but the labor it requires is exhausting.
-Self-seeking- Whom do you serve? What masters you? Is the end result self-glorifying? Do you take noble ideas and make them self-serving? For instance: Do you raise children so that they reflect your glory? (Are you ashamed when they fail you?) Is your marriage glorifying God or is it glorifying you? (Look at my beautiful wife I have...look at the beautiful house I bought her....look at the giant ring I put on her hand....look at how good I treat her...watch me be married everyone!)

The reason the Bible matters, is because it seeks to correct this behavior. The Bible also seeks to explain why we behave this way. The Bible offers a servant's solution. God (whom we should serve) became flesh and made himself "lower than the Angels". That's the Gospel.
If God is real and he is all-powerful...imagine the wrath he can dispense. Imagine a torrent of water, infinitely high and infinitely wide...rushing at you to crush and absorb you. Then imagine the ground opening up and swallowing the infinite wrath...the endless torrent of water. Not a single drop spills on you.
That's what Christ did. God emptied the cup of his wrath on himself. He drank it all and when he was done, he turned the cup over and not a drop was left.

If the Bible matters in any sense....it's that it offers absolution, redemption, hope and indescribable mercy. Why would the Bible matter to you? It matters because you're guilty.
You may say you're not deserving of this wrath, but if I had a DVD with you life on it. Every moment, every thought...every action....and I displayed it on a big screen for all to see, you would run in shame and never show your face again. The depravity, the nasty,vile, disgraceful actions of every man and woman are offensive and criminal.
Yet the only unforgivable sin is the blaspheming of the Holy spirit. (Christ came by the holy spirit, worked by the holy spirit and died and returned by the holy spirit. If we deny Jesus Christ, we blaspheme the holy spirit. The only unforgivable sin, is not accepting Christ. That's a small list of sins.)

You may not believe in God, you may not want to worship God, you may have tried before and failed. Well, it's not up to you. You get on your knees, you pray for God to save you...and if he doesn't, you keep asking until he does. Even if you never feel the hand of mercy on your shoulder, you keep asking...because he is God and he is worthy of worship, even if he doesn't save you.

The good news is, he will save you. If you cry for his mercy, he will save you. He promised he would. The evidence of this....is a renewed heart. By no control or action of your own...you will begin to change and desire spiritual things. Sin will become increasingly more offensive, God will become increasingly more appealing. Eventually, you will break and begin to serve and worship with all you might and you have no control over this. I urge you to seek the Kingdom. He will answer you with very personal evidence.



For those who think TL;DR

If you tried worshipping God, and it failed, do it again.

Response: I tried, didn't work, tried, didn't work, tried, didn't work. Then a muslim said why haven't I tried his God. Then before I could try worshipping Allah pbuh, a jew asked me to worship his way, then a buddhist, then a taoist, then a shinto, then ba'hai, then wicca, then etc.

If I worshipped ALL the Gods, I'd just get criticised by every religion for trying the other ones, and be being intellectually dishonest.If I stuck to one, I know I'd be acting intellectually dishonest, and all but 1 religion will criticise me. If I am agnostic/atheist, I'm not being intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, I'm not so self absorbed to think I should get precedence over the starving, dying people in Africa. I'll spend my time helping others, not myself, and if God gets upset for that, well then he's not worth worshipping in my eyes.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
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3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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3/14/2012 9:49:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:43:46 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I have a gay "friend" on Facebook. I won't identify him, let's just call him Gary…actually, no, I've got more than one friend called Gary, let's just call him Mr Woollett instead.

I have a question: now that I know he is dysfunctional, unnatural sinner in the eyes of the Lord, would the advice of Christians be that I:

a) delete him, or;
b) try and reform him by sending him pictures of naked women in sexually-provocative poses?

Excuse me....? Really....? A Christian would share the gospel.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 9:56:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:43:46 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I have a gay "friend" on Facebook. I won't identify him, let's just call him Gary…actually, no, I've got more than one friend called Gary, let's just call him Mr Woollett instead.

I have a question: now that I know he is dysfunctional, unnatural sinner in the eyes of the Lord, would the advice of Christians be that I:

a) delete him, or;
b) try and reform him by sending him pictures of naked women in sexually-provocative poses?

Well Brian, your answer attempts to limit the action of Christians.

If you have a friend who is gay and you are a Christian, you should speak with him about his sexual orientation first.
I would never assume that your friend has chosen his broken nature. I realize that the psychological "love map" is established in early childhood development, so I would never, ever, ever tell him he is wrong for feeling homosexual or having attractions to other men.
I would need to discern if he desires to live a Christian life. If he does, he needs to recognize his broken sexuality and stop feeding it. That doesn't mean he should stop feeling gay, or being gay. That means he needs to stop having homosexual relations. God's judgement is not for the broken. God's judgement is for "those who do such things."

I hope you don't send your gay friend Internet pornography. I don't think a deep rooted psychological orientation can be "medicated". Stop listening to pseudo-Christian "gay therapy" solutions. Read the Bible instead. It doesn't help anyone if you regurgitate the sophisticated garbage of the uniformed.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/14/2012 10:00:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."


There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God.

According to who/what?

I mean, I don't mean to dismiss the rest of your statement, but it all seems to rest upon the validity of this primary statement. Why should I accept it as true? Because the Bible say so? Well, that just leaves us at square one.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/14/2012 10:03:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:43:46 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I have a gay "friend" on Facebook. I won't identify him, let's just call him Gary…actually, no, I've got more than one friend called Gary, let's just call him Mr Woollett instead.

I have a question: now that I know he is dysfunctional, unnatural sinner in the eyes of the Lord, would the advice of Christians be that I:

a) delete him, or;
b) try and reform him by sending him pictures of naked women in sexually-provocative poses?

As a straight male, I may be able to help determine the effectiveness of any photos you plan on sending him. Let's work together and tag team the satan out of this one!
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 10:27:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:00:19 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."


There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God.

According to who/what?

I mean, I don't mean to dismiss the rest of your statement, but it all seems to rest upon the validity of this primary statement. Why should I accept it as true? Because the Bible say so? Well, that just leaves us at square one.

You need absolutes to have faith?

Listen, if you refuse God because he doesn't manifest in your livingroom to break down the mysteries of life, then you've condemned yourself through hypocrisy.

You don't know that you will be alive tomorrow. You take it on faith. Or do you reject life and commit suicide, simply because tomorrow is not an absolute?
The two are exact parallels. God offers a life that you cannot immediately taste or see. Simply rejecting the offer because you are unsure of the absolute delivery of promises is silly. Hope is absent of evidence.

Now, the old testament tells us a very unique story. The Jews had a prophet living amongst them. This guy was able split a sea in half. He once came so close to God that his face was glowing with radioactive intensity. After Moses led his people out of bondage, using obvious divine intervention....they still did not believe. Even in the face of absolutes.....they did not believe. God didn't destroy them. He made bread fall from the sky. He made water pour out of rocks in the desert. AND STILL THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Judas lived and breathed inches from Christ. Yet he never accepted him as holy.

I tell you this much. Even if the face of absolutes and booming voices from the sky....most of you will not believe.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/14/2012 10:39:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?

No, fundamentalism is 1 part actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy. Not Christianity is 1 part actual point, 9 parts waffle, fundamentalism is.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 10:52:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:39:37 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?

No, fundamentalism is 1 part actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy. Not Christianity is 1 part actual point, 9 parts waffle, fundamentalism is.

What part of Christianity is outside of fundamentalism? Oh, and don't summarize. I'd like the whole explanation, since you're engaged in slinging general refutations of the videos. Anyone can generally refute anything. There is no talent in hit-and-runs.
Let's hear it...
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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3/14/2012 10:55:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:27:16 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:00:19 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."


There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God.

According to who/what?

I mean, I don't mean to dismiss the rest of your statement, but it all seems to rest upon the validity of this primary statement. Why should I accept it as true? Because the Bible say so? Well, that just leaves us at square one.

You need absolutes to have faith?

I need a reason. I never said anything about absolutes, you did. In fact, you offerred absolutes: "The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible"

So, now you have me confused. Are absolutes good or bad? Do you have them or not?


Listen, if you refuse God because he doesn't manifest in your livingroom to break down the mysteries of life, then you've condemned yourself through hypocrisy.

You don't know that you will be alive tomorrow. You take it on faith. Or do you reject life and commit suicide, simply because tomorrow is not an absolute?
The two are exact parallels. God offers a life that you cannot immediately taste or see. Simply rejecting the offer because you are unsure of the absolute delivery of promises is silly. Hope is absent of evidence.

The situations are not analogous.

The notion that I will be alive tomorrow is a result of two things: 1) the entire history of my life, from my earliest memory, to today, of me living and surviving each day. While I acknowledge the axiom that past performance is not an indicator of future expectations, our past experiences, nevertheless, shape our expectations of the future and that which we consider to be likely; 2) I have not been made aware of any compelling reason to believe that I won't survive tomorrow. This is not analogous to God because I have no history of exposure or awareness of god. I have no baseline of evidence that suggests to me that a god exists. Unawareness of god is the status quo here, just as my surviving day-to-day. And just as I lack evidence or reason to deviate from the status quo of me believing I will survive each do, I lack evidence or reason to deviate from the status quo of me being unaware of god.


Now, the old testament tells us a very unique story. The Jews had a prophet living amongst them. This guy was able split a sea in half. He once came so close to God that his face was glowing with radioactive intensity. After Moses led his people out of bondage, using obvious divine intervention....they still did not believe. Even in the face of absolutes.....they did not believe. God didn't destroy them. He made bread fall from the sky. He made water pour out of rocks in the desert. AND STILL THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Judas lived and breathed inches from Christ. Yet he never accepted him as holy.

Interesting story from the Bible, but why should I care what the Bible has to say?

I mean, you keep ignoring this question and throwing stuff from the Bible at me. You have to establish the relevance of the Bible first.


I tell you this much. Even if the face of absolutes and booming voices from the sky....most of you will not believe.

I'd kindly ask you not to presume such things on my behalf. If you're just going to poison the well, then there really isn't any point for you to be here at all, is there?
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/14/2012 11:04:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:52:55 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:39:37 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?

No, fundamentalism is 1 part actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy. Not Christianity is 1 part actual point, 9 parts waffle, fundamentalism is.

What part of Christianity is outside of fundamentalism? Oh, and don't summarize. I'd like the whole explanation, since you're engaged in slinging general refutations of the videos. Anyone can generally refute anything. There is no talent in hit-and-runs.
Let's hear it...

"strict adherence to doctrines" is the definition of fundamentalism. Ignoring the vast majority of theology of islam between 700-1000 AD and Christianity 1200-1900 AD, there are many non-biblically strict "literal truth" naive realist interpretations of the Bible. Modernists are all non-fundamentalist in regards to the Bible. But that wasn't my point: my point was that any fundamentalist in any sense of the word is "doing it wrong". Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu, fundamentalism is bad. Hell, even the new atheist movement has its share of fundamental atheists (in a loose meaning of the word fundamentalist in that case).

Oh, and talking about "hit and run", in what way is my summary wrong? You neglected to mention this in your previous point.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 11:14:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:55:33 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:27:16 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:00:19 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:13:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
You said:" Except in order for me to take heed of those words ... I need to understand why I should care what the Bible has to say about anything. Cart before the Horse, and all that."


There is an absolute, universal reason.

The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible:
All of creation is the handiwork of God.

According to who/what?

I mean, I don't mean to dismiss the rest of your statement, but it all seems to rest upon the validity of this primary statement. Why should I accept it as true? Because the Bible say so? Well, that just leaves us at square one.

You need absolutes to have faith?

I need a reason. I never said anything about absolutes, you did. In fact, you offerred absolutes: "The absolute, universal reason for the relevancy of the Bible"

So, now you have me confused. Are absolutes good or bad? Do you have them or not?


Listen, if you refuse God because he doesn't manifest in your livingroom to break down the mysteries of life, then you've condemned yourself through hypocrisy.

You don't know that you will be alive tomorrow. You take it on faith. Or do you reject life and commit suicide, simply because tomorrow is not an absolute?
The two are exact parallels. God offers a life that you cannot immediately taste or see. Simply rejecting the offer because you are unsure of the absolute delivery of promises is silly. Hope is absent of evidence.

The situations are not analogous.

The notion that I will be alive tomorrow is a result of two things: 1) the entire history of my life, from my earliest memory, to today, of me living and surviving each day. While I acknowledge the axiom that past performance is not an indicator of future expectations, our past experiences, nevertheless, shape our expectations of the future and that which we consider to be likely; 2) I have not been made aware of any compelling reason to believe that I won't survive tomorrow. This is not analogous to God because I have no history of exposure or awareness of god. I have no baseline of evidence that suggests to me that a god exists. Unawareness of god is the status quo here, just as my surviving day-to-day. And just as I lack evidence or reason to deviate from the status quo of me believing I will survive each do, I lack evidence or reason to deviate from the status quo of me being unaware of god.


Now, the old testament tells us a very unique story. The Jews had a prophet living amongst them. This guy was able split a sea in half. He once came so close to God that his face was glowing with radioactive intensity. After Moses led his people out of bondage, using obvious divine intervention....they still did not believe. Even in the face of absolutes.....they did not believe. God didn't destroy them. He made bread fall from the sky. He made water pour out of rocks in the desert. AND STILL THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Judas lived and breathed inches from Christ. Yet he never accepted him as holy.

Interesting story from the Bible, but why should I care what the Bible has to say?

I mean, you keep ignoring this question and throwing stuff from the Bible at me. You have to establish the relevance of the Bible first.


I tell you this much. Even if the face of absolutes and booming voices from the sky....most of you will not believe.

I'd kindly ask you not to presume such things on my behalf. If you're just going to poison the well, then there really isn't any point for you to be here at all, is there?

I'm not poisoning the well. The principle that the majority will walk a path to destruction is Biblical. The very source that you desire evidence for, predicted that you would reject it. Your problem is not with me.

Calling the Bible and absolute and needing faith to believe the Bible are not in contradiction. If the Bible is derived from divine origin, it is intrinsically absolute. That doesn't take away from the fact that you need faith to believe. You're twisting words to gain advantage. What good will that do? It won't make you right, it makes you manipulative.

You should care what the Bible stories tell you because you can judge the purpose, validity and worth of the scripture by it's content. 90% of the evidence comes from reading the Bible and applying it. A large portion also comes from comparing it to written, secular history. Not suprising, dates, names, places and occurances all seem to be pretty verifiable. Nothing absolute, mind you.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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3/14/2012 11:18:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:04:21 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:52:55 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:39:37 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?

No, fundamentalism is 1 part actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy. Not Christianity is 1 part actual point, 9 parts waffle, fundamentalism is.

What part of Christianity is outside of fundamentalism? Oh, and don't summarize. I'd like the whole explanation, since you're engaged in slinging general refutations of the videos. Anyone can generally refute anything. There is no talent in hit-and-runs.
Let's hear it...

"strict adherence to doctrines" is the definition of fundamentalism. Ignoring the vast majority of theology of islam between 700-1000 AD and Christianity 1200-1900 AD, there are many non-biblically strict "literal truth" naive realist interpretations of the Bible. Modernists are all non-fundamentalist in regards to the Bible. But that wasn't my point: my point was that any fundamentalist in any sense of the word is "doing it wrong". Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu, fundamentalism is bad. Hell, even the new atheist movement has its share of fundamental atheists (in a loose meaning of the word fundamentalist in that case).

Oh, and talking about "hit and run", in what way is my summary wrong? You neglected to mention this in your previous point.

I know what fundamentalism is. I didn't ask for a definiton. I asked you to provide an example of Christianity outside of fundamentalism.

Your hit and run accusation was calling 90% of the video "flaffle waffle". (Did I get that right?) Which parts are you concerned about? Heck....give me a time-stamp from the video where the information becomes "waffle-like".
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/14/2012 11:26:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:18:32 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:04:21 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:52:55 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:39:37 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:04 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:48:40 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:44:54 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 3/14/2012 9:41:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Can someone post a quick summary of the video?

I hope not. Is this how you make all your informed decisions?

Similar to your post I just summaried, Fundamentalist videos are usually 1 part an actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy.

Yea, you have an uncanny ability to divine the unread, the unseen and the unlearned. Isn't that why you're attacking the Christian faith?

No, fundamentalism is 1 part actual point, 9 parts flaffing waffle. Summaries are quite easy. Not Christianity is 1 part actual point, 9 parts waffle, fundamentalism is.

What part of Christianity is outside of fundamentalism? Oh, and don't summarize. I'd like the whole explanation, since you're engaged in slinging general refutations of the videos. Anyone can generally refute anything. There is no talent in hit-and-runs.
Let's hear it...

"strict adherence to doctrines" is the definition of fundamentalism. Ignoring the vast majority of theology of islam between 700-1000 AD and Christianity 1200-1900 AD, there are many non-biblically strict "literal truth" naive realist interpretations of the Bible. Modernists are all non-fundamentalist in regards to the Bible. But that wasn't my point: my point was that any fundamentalist in any sense of the word is "doing it wrong". Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu, fundamentalism is bad. Hell, even the new atheist movement has its share of fundamental atheists (in a loose meaning of the word fundamentalist in that case).

Oh, and talking about "hit and run", in what way is my summary wrong? You neglected to mention this in your previous point.

I know what fundamentalism is. I didn't ask for a definiton. I asked you to provide an example of Christianity outside of fundamentalism.

Your hit and run accusation was calling 90% of the video "flaffle waffle". (Did I get that right?) Which parts are you concerned about? Heck....give me a time-stamp from the video where the information becomes "waffle-like".

You seem to dislike answering my points. Firstly, I provided a definition to make it as clear as I possibly could to what I was discussing. Then I addressed times in history, and entire movements that promotes critical realism in reference to the Bible. Finally, I point out that you misread my argument, my point was fundamentalists of any religion (or even lackof) are 1 part point, 9 parts waffle. You seem to have only addressed the first point, which you agreed with. If this was in a debate format, I'd take that as a concession and extend all arguments.

Furthermore, if you looked at what I quoted, I referred to the massive speech you gave that was 7000 characters long. Not any video you referred to. So please stop trying to misrepresent me and address what I was commenting on, instead of skirting around the issue in the vain hope of (and I can only assume what you're trying to do, as I'm used to discussions with a slightly higher level of intelligence) "winning".
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...