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JESUS CHRIST: Myth or Historical Person?

Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 2:18:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.

PERSON #1:
Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Tacitus: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."

********************************************

PERSON #2:
Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.

Flavius Josephus joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74 AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to their side and ended up becoming the Roman emperor's Adviser on Jewish Affairs.

********************************************

PERSON #3:
Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.

DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his earthly existence?

2. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

3. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/14/2012 2:49:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Would you mind point out which of these three men encountered Jesus or claimed anything divine about Jesus that was not simply paraphrasing what they were told BY Christians? For instance, Christians told Pliny the Elder Jesus came back from the grave, and Pliny the Elder wrote "a bunch of Christians told me Jesus came back from the grave."

It is one thing to claim a person named Jesus existed, quite another to claim a person named Jesus existed who, like every other self-proclaimed messiah at the time claimed, could perform miracles.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/14/2012 4:43:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:18:29 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.

PERSON #1:
Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Tacitus: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."

********************************************

PERSON #2:
Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.

Flavius Josephus joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74 AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to their side and ended up becoming the Roman emperor's Adviser on Jewish Affairs.

********************************************

PERSON #3:
Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his earthly existence?

2. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

3. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

What is the point? Jesus, a common name in the first century, Christ, a term not applied to anyone alive in the first century yet you're gonna prove what exactly? and to what end?>
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 4:56:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:49:09 AM, Wnope wrote:
Would you mind point out which of these three men encountered Jesus or claimed anything divine about Jesus that was not simply paraphrasing what they were told BY Christians? For instance, Christians told Pliny the Elder Jesus came back from the grave, and Pliny the Elder wrote "a bunch of Christians told me Jesus came back from the grave."


ALTER2EGO -to- WNOPE:

Next you will be arguing that historians from the 20th century that wrote about the American Civil War, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, etc. were right there on the scene talking to the people they wrote about.

A competent historian does not need to live in the same century as the people he or she is reporting on. All that's required is that the historian has access to credible documentation--which was the case with all three of the individuals I listed in my open post.

BTW: Just don't get the idea that you're going to monopolize my time by writing me rebuttals just for the sake of rebutting. I learned not to waste my time debating people to ad nauseam. I will respond to your posts if you present valid arguments. But if you start posting stupid stuff to me—like you did on my other threads—you will be ignored.

I've met a long line of atheists at other websites that come up with the same nonsensical arguments that I've been getting here. After a while, it gets to be a bore.

At 3/14/2012 2:49:09 AM, Wnope wrote:

It is one thing to claim a person named Jesus existed, quite another to claim a person named Jesus existed who, like every other self-proclaimed messiah at the time claimed, could perform miracles.


ALTER2EGO -to- WNOPE:

Somehow I get the impression that you think your decision to become an unbeliever is unique and that therefore, it matters to me and will affect what I post. Trust me when I tell you that it doesn't.

I believe what's written in the Bible about Jesus Christ because I accept the Bible as the inspired word of Jehovah. You don't get nearly 2,000 accurately fulfilled Bible prophesies from a book that is mere myth. Therefore, I have confidence that when the Bible says Jesus and his apostles performed miracles, it happened.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 5:02:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 4:43:35 AM, logicrules wrote:

What is the point? Jesus, a common name in the first century, Christ, a term not applied to anyone alive in the first century yet you're gonna prove what exactly? and to what end?>


ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICRULES:

Read my opening post again... slowly.... Then maybe you will notice that I'm not referring to just any person with the name "Jesus." The three people I referenced in my OP specifically separated this "Jesus" from others with the same name. I will post more info to that effect soon.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/14/2012 5:51:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:02:57 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 4:43:35 AM, logicrules wrote:

What is the point? Jesus, a common name in the first century, Christ, a term not applied to anyone alive in the first century yet you're gonna prove what exactly? and to what end?>


ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICRULES:

Read my opening post again... slowly.... Then maybe you will notice that I'm not referring to just any person with the name "Jesus." The three people I referenced in my OP specifically separated this "Jesus" from others with the same name. I will post more info to that effect soon.

I did.....gonna answer the question? Try real hard to see if you can come up with a reason other than "people say he did not exist." I a particullarly interest in your use of a surname, ie Christus.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/14/2012 5:53:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:18:29 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.

PERSON #1:
Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Tacitus: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."

********************************************

PERSON #2:
Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.

Flavius Josephus joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74 AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to their side and ended up becoming the Roman emperor's Adviser on Jewish Affairs.

********************************************

PERSON #3:
Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his earthly existence?

2. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

3. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

I know Jesus was a historical person because He has spoken to me on a number of occasions.. which means His disciples claims of His ressurrection must be true too..
The Cross.. the Cross.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 2:18:29 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ.

Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post.

First off, the existance of a man named Jesus Christ does not confirm the actions or events in the bible. Jews, for example, agree that Jesus existed, but claim that he was only a rabbi teacher who did no miracles and was not resurrected.

I have no problem with the existance of Jesus. I believe that there probably was some guy called Jesus who was a rabbi preacher but did nothing more than preach.

Secondly, none of the people you mention are contemporary. They all were born, lived and died well after Jesus was already dead.

PERSON #1:
Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile

What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Tacitus: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."

********************************************

Tacitus is talking about Christians and where they got their name from. No one is saying that Christians did not exist.

PERSON #2:
Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them)

What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

Highlights on Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.

Flavius Josephus joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74 AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to their side and ended up becoming the Roman emperor's Adviser on Jewish Affairs.

********************************************
Even christian scholars agree that the passage within Testimonium flavianum is atleast a partial 2nd-3rd century interpolation, if not a downright total forgery. Therefore this passage is in doubt, if not completely false.
PERSON #3:
Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD

Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians

What He Said: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his earthly existence?

2. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

3. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings?

Again, Pliny is talking about Christians and their being executed by the emperor.

Not many atheists claim that Jesus never existed, anymore than we would claim that Muhammad never existed.

But lets be serious here, and check out what is important. Is it more important that Jesus existed, or is it more important that Jesus, as portrayed by the bible, existed? If its the latter, then no, none of the historians confirm any event in the bible beyond his existance and beyond what christians of the time, claimed they believed in.
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 9:00:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 5:53:52 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I know Jesus was a historical person because He has spoken to me on a number of occasions.. which means His disciples claims of His ressurrection must be true too..

ALTER2EGO -to- DATCMOTO

The fact that Jesus' historicity was confirmed by hostile non-Christians is further proof that he wasn't a mythical character. It also gives credence to the Bible as a historical document and not a book of myths.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/14/2012 9:11:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:00:11 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/14/2012 5:53:52 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I know Jesus was a historical person because He has spoken to me on a number of occasions.. which means His disciples claims of His ressurrection must be true too..

ALTER2EGO -to- DATCMOTO

The fact that Jesus' historicity was confirmed by hostile non-Christians is further proof that he wasn't a mythical character. It also gives credence to the Bible as a historical document and not a book of myths.

Muhammad isnt a mythical character either. The Quran is a historical document, too. Does that mean that everything in the quran is true?
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 9:27:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM, tkubok wrote:

First off, the existance of a man named Jesus Christ does not confirm the actions or events in the bible. Jews, for example, agree that Jesus existed, but claim that he was only a rabbi teacher who did no miracles and was not resurrected.

I have no problem with the existance of Jesus. I believe that there probably was some guy called Jesus who was a rabbi preacher but did nothing more than preach.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
The Bible's authenticity as the inspired Word of Jehovah God is seen in the nearly 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophecies found within its pages. The fulfillment of many of those prophesies have been confirmed by archeology and secular history (meaning history that isn't connected with the Bible). Those fulfilled prophesies demonstrate that God inspired the writing of the Bible. Therefore, it gives sound reason for believing everything written therein—including the miracles performed by Jesus and others.

At 3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM, tkubok wrote:
Secondly, none of the people you mention are contemporary. They all were born, lived and died well after Jesus was already dead.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Your pal Wnope used this lame argument already. Below is what I told him.

Next you will be arguing that historians from the 20th century that wrote about the American Civil War, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, etc. were right there on the scene talking to the people they wrote about.

A competent historian does not need to live in the same century as the people he or she is reporting on. All that's required is that the historian has access to credible documentation--which was the case with all three of the individuals I listed in my open post.

At 3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM, tkubok wrote:

Even christian scholars agree that the passage within Testimonium flavianum is atleast a partial 2nd-3rd century interpolation, if not a downright total forgery. Therefore this passage is in doubt, if not completely false.

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Correction: So-call "Christian" scholars opined aka speculated that the writing is a forgery. Adolph Hitler also claimed he was a Christian; remember? Satan's agents are all over the place.

On top of that, you're relying on people making claims they cannot prove. I can list other Christian scholars who accept the writing of Flavius Josephus (in which he mentioned Jesus Christ) as being authentic. So where does that leave you and your "scholars" and their opinions? What makes you think your scholars' opinions are better than anybody elses? Without evidence to prove what they're saying, they're simply blowing steam--like you're doing right now.

At 3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM, tkubok wrote:

Again, Pliny is talking about Christians and their being executed by the emperor.

Not many atheists claim that Jesus never existed, anymore than we would claim that Muhammad never existed.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Pliny confirmed that Christ was the "god of the Christians," and thereby confirmed Jesus' historicity.

And what do you mean by "Not many atheists claim that Jesus never existed"? You need to visit some of the other websites that I've been on where the recurring theme among atheists is that Jesus was invented from Egyptian mythical characters.

At 3/14/2012 6:21:37 PM, tkubok wrote:

But lets be serious here, and check out what is important. Is it more important that Jesus existed, or is it more important that Jesus, as portrayed by the bible, existed? If its the latter, then no, none of the historians confirm any event in the bible beyond his existance and beyond what christians of the time, claimed they believed in.

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
As stated above, the Bible has been confirmed as authentically the inspired Word of Jehovah as a result of the nearly 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies found within its pages. Therefore, I have every reason to believe what it says about Jesus (and others) performing miracles.

Non-belief is a choice. You made your choice. I made mine.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 9:27:03 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
The Bible's authenticity as the inspired Word of Jehovah God is seen in the nearly 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophecies found within its pages. The fulfillment of many of those prophesies have been confirmed by archeology and secular history (meaning history that isn't connected with the Bible). Those fulfilled prophesies demonstrate that God inspired the writing of the Bible. Therefore, it gives sound reason for believing everything written therein—including the miracles performed by Jesus and others.

First of all, the Quran has prophecies. Hinduism has prophecies. Nostramadus has prophecies.

Secondly, are any of the prophecies, both specific, confirmed to have been written before the event, and not a likely event that could not possibly be known to the person writing it?

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Your pal Wnope used this lame argument already. Below is what I told him.

Next you will be arguing that historians from the 20th century that wrote about the American Civil War, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, etc. were right there on the scene talking to the people they wrote about.

Right there on the scene? Some were, definately. Lived in the same age and actually talked to and discussed the war with people like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln? Definately, all of them.

A competent historian does not need to live in the same century as the people he or she is reporting on. All that's required is that the historian has access to credible documentation--which was the case with all three of the individuals I listed in my open post.

This still doesnt make it contemporary.

Lets suppose, to prove my point, that hypothetically, Jesus never actually existed, but a 20 year old christian living around 100 AD was interviewed by Tacitus. What do you think that 20 year old christian would say about his beliefs?

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Correction: So-call "Christian" scholars opined aka speculated that the writing is a forgery. Adolph Hitler also claimed he was a Christian; remember? Satan's agents are all over the place.

On top of that, you're relying on people making claims they cannot prove. I can list other Christian scholars who accept the writing of Flavius Josephus (in which he mentioned Jesus Christ) as being authentic. So where does that leave you and your "scholars" and their opinions? What makes you think your scholars' opinions are better than anybody elses? Without evidence to prove what they're saying, they're simply blowing steam--like you're doing right now.

Actually, they have evidence.

First off, Josephus was a pharisees jew his entire life. This is confirmed by all historians. Therefore, for Josephus to call Jesus as "he was the messiah" or "If it be lawful to call him a man", could not have been possible, both in the frequency that Josephus ever mentions Jesus and the aforementioned Orthodox jewish beiefs he had.

Secondly, and definately the most important factor, early christian writers never once mention this passage before 300 AD. Anatolius, Clement of Alexandria, Hyppolitus, Menucius, Theophilus, Iraneus, Justin Martyr, and possibly the most important writer, Origen, who admits, twice, that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the christ. All of these men were well read, they quoted from Josephus and new his works extensively, they quoted from each other, yet none of them mention this passage. This was something that should be easy and prove to them that Jesus did exist and that Jews admit he was the Christ. Yet it does not exist.

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Pliny confirmed that Christ was the "god of the Christians," and thereby confirmed Jesus' historicity.

And what do you mean by "Not many atheists claim that Jesus never existed"? You need to visit some of the other websites that I've been on where the recurring theme among atheists is that Jesus was invented from Egyptian mythical characters.

If you go out and look specifically for them, im sure you can find them. Just like, if i go out and look for christians who reject Josephus testimony on Christ, i bet i can find them.

But im telling you this and now. I do not reject that a man named Jesus who walked around and preached peace but did not do any miracles or resurrection or anything, existed.

However, the wording of your comment seems to indicate that these atheists did not reject the existance of Jesus, only the life and actions of Jesus.

Non-belief is a choice. You made your choice. I made mine.

No, belief or non-belief is not a choice. You have to be convinced that something is true in order to believe. The keyword there is "Convinced". You cannot simply choose to believe, and actually believe it to be true.
Alter2Ego
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3/15/2012 5:04:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM, tkubok wrote:

First of all, the Quran has prophecies. Hinduism has prophecies. Nostramadus has prophecies.

Secondly, are any of the prophecies, both specific, confirmed to have been written before the event, and not a likely event that could not possibly be known to the person writing it?


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

I specifically said the Bible is set apart from other books because it presents evidence that it was written by inspiration of Jehovah in the form of almost 2,000 ACCURATELY FULFILLED prophesies. I never said other books don't have prophesies. So what if they do? Their prophesies are not accurate.

At 3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM, tkubok wrote:

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
Your pal Wnope used this lame argument already. Below is what I told him.

Next you will be arguing that historians from the 20th century that wrote about the American Civil War, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, etc. were right there on the scene talking to the people they wrote about.

Right there on the scene? Some were, definately. Lived in the same age and actually talked to and discussed the war with people like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln? Definately, all of them.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

People from the 20th century were right there on the scene interviewing Abe Lincoln and George Washington? Tell me more.

At 3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM, tkubok wrote:

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:
On top of that, you're relying on people making claims they cannot prove. I can list other Christian scholars who accept the writing of Flavius Josephus (in which he mentioned Jesus Christ) as being authentic. So where does that leave you and your "scholars" and their opinions? What makes you think your scholars' opinions are better than anybody elses? Without evidence to prove what they're saying, they're simply blowing steam--like you're doing right now.

Actually, they have evidence.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

What evidence? The ones you dreamed up? There's no evidence that the Flavius Josephus writings about Jesus Christ were doctored. The scholars that have been making this claim are simply speculating. You know that quite well. If you or your "scholars" had such evidence, you would have long since posted it in this thread.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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3/15/2012 5:10:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM, tkubok wrote:

First off, Josephus was a pharisees jew his entire life. This is confirmed by all historians. Therefore, for Josephus to call Jesus as "he was the messiah" or "If it be lawful to call him a man", could not have been possible, both in the frequency that Josephus ever mentions Jesus and the aforementioned Orthodox jewish beiefs he had.

Secondly, and definately the most important factor, early christian writers never once mention this passage before 300 AD. Anatolius, Clement of Alexandria, Hyppolitus, Menucius, Theophilus, Iraneus, Justin Martyr, and possibly the most important writer, Origen, who admits, twice, that Josephus did not accept Jesus as the christ. All of these men were well read, they quoted from Josephus and new his works extensively, they quoted from each other, yet none of them mention this passage. This was something that should be easy and prove to them that Jesus did exist and that Jews admit he was the Christ. Yet it does not exist.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

I clearly stated in my opening post that Flavius Josephus was a Pharisee. So why are you telling me what I already know? The fact the Josephus was a Pharisee—meaning he belonged to the religious group that caused Jesus' death—makes his admission that Jesus was "perhaps the Messiah" all the more believable. After all, he had nothing to gain from confirming the historicity of someone he was against.

BTW: Since when are other historians supposed to mention what other historians wrote in their writings? Is that your idea of an effective rebuttal?

At 3/15/2012 2:18:45 AM, tkubok wrote:

Non-belief is a choice. You made your choice. I made mine.

No, belief or non-belief is not a choice. You have to be convinced that something is true in order to believe. The keyword there is "Convinced". You cannot simply choose to believe, and actually believe it to be true.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

You've chosen to ignore evidence and fight against it—like you're doing here. That's because you've made up your mind to be an unbeliever no matter what.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
tkubok
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3/15/2012 5:36:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 5:10:51 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

I clearly stated in my opening post that Flavius Josephus was a Pharisee. So why are you telling me what I already know? The fact the Josephus was a Pharisee—meaning he belonged to the religious group that caused Jesus' death—makes his admission that Jesus was "perhaps the Messiah" all the more believable. After all, he had nothing to gain from confirming the historicity of someone he was against.

He doesnt say "Perhaps the messiah". He says "He IS the messiah". THAT is the reason why historians agree that testimonium flavianum is atelast a partial interpolation.

BTW: Since when are other historians supposed to mention what other historians wrote in their writings? Is that your idea of an effective rebuttal?

No, Origen for example, was already frequently alluding to many various authors and historians regarding the truth and validity of the historicity of Jesus.

Seriously, ask yourself this question. How else could someone who was born and lived well after Jesus died, supposed to prove the historicity of Jesus? You yourself started this thread by alluding and mentionning what other historians wrote in their writings.

So, i suppose ill ask the question, why did you bring up what other historians wrote in their writings in order to show that Jesus existed?

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

You've chosen to ignore evidence and fight against it—like you're doing here. That's because you've made up your mind to be an unbeliever no matter what.

I havent made up my mind. My mind will only be made up by evidence and reasoned logical arguments.

So far, what have you brought to me?

Prophecies that exist in both the quran, bible and many other historical texts.
Early jewish writers showing the existance of jesus christ which i do not reject, just like i do not reject the existance of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Evolution, as if somoene cannot believe in God and evolution at the same time, nor have any of your arguments against evolution held up any weight.

Seriously, if there is more that you brought to me, please, feel free to mention. But please explain how these are reasonable, if you cant even address the problems and objections i have?