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Why is rape wrong?

Oryus
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3/14/2012 10:45:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:33:51 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Without objective morality it wouldn't be.

The only fear would be of societal punishment.

Yeah, that^

If there is no such thing as right and wrong then there is no such thing as a wrong thing. Rape wouldn't be wrong because it couldn't be wrong- objectively speaking.

But that doesn't stop people from feeling guilty when they hurt others or empathy when they are making decisions that affect others. So, I don't think fear of societal punishment is the lone thing stopping all people from raping others. That would be like asserting that all people have an innate drive to hurt others and the only thing stopping them is punishment. That doesn't seem to be right. There's something else afoot there... the mythical Jiminy Cricket works in mysterious ways....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/14/2012 10:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:45:19 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Better run for cover, moral relativists.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 10:56:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:45:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:51 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Without objective morality it wouldn't be.

The only fear would be of societal punishment.

Yeah, that^

If there is no such thing as right and wrong then there is no such thing as a wrong thing. Rape wouldn't be wrong because it couldn't be wrong- objectively speaking.

But that doesn't stop people from feeling guilty when they hurt others or empathy when they are making decisions that affect others. So, I don't think fear of societal punishment is the lone thing stopping all people from raping others. That would be like asserting that all people have an innate drive to hurt others and the only thing stopping them is punishment. That doesn't seem to be right. There's something else afoot there... the mythical Jiminy Cricket works in mysterious ways....

Empathy. Some people may like the feeling of power better.

And anyway, isn't that an appeal to emotions?
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/14/2012 11:16:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

The answer to the second half of that sentence is contained in the first. If there's no objective morality so rape could not be wrong.
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Oryus
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3/14/2012 11:17:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:56:40 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:45:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:51 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Without objective morality it wouldn't be.

The only fear would be of societal punishment.

Yeah, that^

If there is no such thing as right and wrong then there is no such thing as a wrong thing. Rape wouldn't be wrong because it couldn't be wrong- objectively speaking.

But that doesn't stop people from feeling guilty when they hurt others or empathy when they are making decisions that affect others. So, I don't think fear of societal punishment is the lone thing stopping all people from raping others. That would be like asserting that all people have an innate drive to hurt others and the only thing stopping them is punishment. That doesn't seem to be right. There's something else afoot there... the mythical Jiminy Cricket works in mysterious ways....

Empathy. Some people may like the feeling of power better.

And anyway, isn't that an appeal to emotions?

Some may, yes. It's obvious that some people do, otherwise rape would not be a problem.

It's not really an appeal to emotion. I'm not saying that because we feel it's wrong, it is wrong. I'm just saying that punishment is not the only thing stopping people from hurting others. Something else stops us from hurting others for no pressing reason. Whether that fact has some bearing on morality on the whole is up for debate. I don't know the answer. I just know that empathy and consciences, or whatever you want to call it, exist, and they stop us from living in violent dystopian societies. At some level, we just care- not perfectly and not all the time- but certainly enough to assert that punishment is not the primary driving force behind our "good" behavior all the time.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 11:18:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:16:20 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

The answer to the second half of that sentence is contained in the first. If there's no objective morality so rape could not be wrong.

I was about to ask you how you know objective morality exists, but that is another topic entirely. For the purposes of this thread, your answer suffices.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/14/2012 11:27:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?
It's not. If there is no objective standard for what is right and wrong, then nothing is right nor wrong.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/14/2012 11:34:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

Isn't that like asking, "If there is no paintbrush, why is the stove hot?"

What does objective morality have to do with it?

I've always wondered what the appeal of objective morality is supposed to be. I mean, wouldn't a subjective morality that discouraged rape be preferable to an objective morality that encouraged rape?
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/14/2012 11:39:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:17:34 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:56:40 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:45:06 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:33:51 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Without objective morality it wouldn't be.

The only fear would be of societal punishment.

Yeah, that^

If there is no such thing as right and wrong then there is no such thing as a wrong thing. Rape wouldn't be wrong because it couldn't be wrong- objectively speaking.

But that doesn't stop people from feeling guilty when they hurt others or empathy when they are making decisions that affect others. So, I don't think fear of societal punishment is the lone thing stopping all people from raping others. That would be like asserting that all people have an innate drive to hurt others and the only thing stopping them is punishment. That doesn't seem to be right. There's something else afoot there... the mythical Jiminy Cricket works in mysterious ways....

Empathy. Some people may like the feeling of power better.

And anyway, isn't that an appeal to emotions?

Some may, yes. It's obvious that some people do, otherwise rape would not be a problem.

It's not really an appeal to emotion. I'm not saying that because we feel it's wrong, it is wrong. I'm just saying that punishment is not the only thing stopping people from hurting others. Something else stops us from hurting others for no pressing reason. Whether that fact has some bearing on morality on the whole is up for debate. I don't know the answer. I just know that empathy and consciences, or whatever you want to call it, exist, and they stop us from living in violent dystopian societies. At some level, we just care- not perfectly and not all the time- but certainly enough to assert that punishment is not the primary driving force behind our "good" behavior all the time.

So you are not saying that rape is wrong, you seem to be saying that we just don't feel like doing it.

Well, your argument only covers most people. And anyway, if someone does feel like it, why should anyone feel as if its wrong and evil? That person is only doing something you don't feel like doing.
Wnope
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3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.
Dan4reason
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3/14/2012 11:58:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:34:44 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

Isn't that like asking, "If there is no paintbrush, why is the stove hot?"

What does objective morality have to do with it?

I've always wondered what the appeal of objective morality is supposed to be. I mean, wouldn't a subjective morality that discouraged rape be preferable to an objective morality that encouraged rape?

Maybe, but I haven't seen a good argument for a subjective based morality deciding right and wrong.
Dan4reason
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3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D
Wnope
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3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.
Dan4reason
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3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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3/15/2012 12:17:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Without Objective morality - there is nothing wrong with rape.

Or pedophilia.

really - without objective morality, there is no point in 'laws' against anything either...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
OMGJustinBieber
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3/15/2012 12:17:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.

Well you're an agnostic, what's your objective morality?
16kadams
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3/15/2012 12:29:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:17:18 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Without Objective morality - there is nothing wrong with rape.

Or pedophilia.

really - without objective morality, there is no point in 'laws' against anything either...

That's false, objective morality has nothing to make this right/wrong. It changes on person to person, most people think its wrong already, therefore it would not matter.

Morality is subjective anyway. I reconomd this:
http://www.infidels.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/15/2012 12:34:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.

If you think that rape is fine and dandy on the condition that no one has a spoon-fed maxim telling you otherwise, that's your belief.

Mine is that individuals can function using the moral systems ingrained in their brains since birth and through experience. If their cognitive moral systems tell them rape is wrong, they don't need a dictionary of meta-ethics to make a moral decision. If they have no problem with rape or murder, then citing Aquinas probably won't change how they make decisions.

Now, can a SOCIETY function like that? Sure, as long as you don't confuse manufactured, internally-consistent, enforceable laws pragmatically structured to promote or deter certain forms of behavior with objectively determined moral maxims.

IF objective morality existed, you would have that same set of manufactured, enforceable laws, but with a list of philosophical talking-points to hand out to prisoners.
Wnope
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3/15/2012 12:36:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:17:18 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
without objective morality, there is no point in 'laws' against anything either...

So, if there's no objective morality, you see no point in having some method of stopping me from robbing your house and punching you in the face?
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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3/15/2012 12:37:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
So youre telling me raping people in debates is wrong now?

What if they deserved it?........
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Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/15/2012 12:41:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:17:42 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.

Well you're an agnostic, what's your objective morality?

I don't have one, and I still cannot construct a subjective morality that can dictate right and wrong yet I still believe in right and wrong.

So I am in the same boat as you. I don't know that there is right and wrong logically, yet I still believe in it. Is it an irrational cultural thing, or is it logical?

That is why I made this thread. Maybe we non-religious people have our own faith-based beliefs.
Paradox_7
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3/15/2012 12:44:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:36:08 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:17:18 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
without objective morality, there is no point in 'laws' against anything either...

So, if there's no objective morality, you see no point in having some method of stopping me from robbing your house and punching you in the face?

Absolutely, selfishness. You can't have what is mine because ill kick your a$$ if you try to take it.

BUT that has little to do with morality.

Can you give me a good reason why it's wrong to rob or rape anyone? (i would most likely agree with anything you say, but for the sake of argument please respond rationally)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/15/2012 12:44:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:41:21 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:17:42 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.

Well you're an agnostic, what's your objective morality?

I don't have one, and I still cannot construct a subjective morality that can dictate right and wrong yet I still believe in right and wrong.

So I am in the same boat as you. I don't know that there is right and wrong logically, yet I still believe in it. Is it an irrational cultural thing, or is it logical?

That is why I made this thread. Maybe we non-religious people have our own faith-based beliefs.

I know exactly how you feel.

You are being 100% normal in your reactions.

Check out this link, and I'm pretty sure you'll be quite relieved.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu...
OMGJustinBieber
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3/15/2012 12:45:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 12:41:21 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:17:42 AM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:11:50 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/15/2012 12:07:53 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:59:16 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:40:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

You might have no problem with rape, but as I personally define my moral worldview, rape is wrong and if I see someone engaging in it than, regardless of their meta-ethical differences with me, I shall try and stop them.

Have all the arbitrary feeling you like, but that won't win you the debate. :D

Rapists usually aren't swayed by debate.

I am not into rape myself, I am only pointing out that without objective morality, there is nothing morally wrong with rape, because no consistent morality can survive in the first place. Without objective morality there is no right or wrong.

Well you're an agnostic, what's your objective morality?

I don't have one, and I still cannot construct a subjective morality that can dictate right and wrong yet I still believe in right and wrong.

So I am in the same boat as you. I don't know that there is right and wrong logically, yet I still believe in it. Is it an irrational cultural thing, or is it logical?

That is why I made this thread. Maybe we non-religious people have our own faith-based beliefs.

We're not in the same boat, I have an objective moral system that makes sense to me. I don't believe in it because I want to, the system honestly makes sense to me. I don't know if you read much philosophy, but The Expanding Circle is pretty clear and presents an excellent case for a secular, objective moral philosophy.
Illegalcombatant
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3/15/2012 1:19:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

I will do you one better, even if rape is objectively "wrong", why should one not do objectively wrong things ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Paradox_7
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3/15/2012 1:34:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 1:19:59 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

I will do you one better, even if rape is objectively "wrong", why should one not do objectively wrong things ?

because the only way something could be objectively wrong - is if its outside of ourselves and beyond what we feel or think.

If that's so then there has to be a construct behind it, and the only logical construct that can create objective morality is a personal construct.

A personal moral construct is AKA God. If God is real, then we know there is punishment for those things, hence we should not do them.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Illegalcombatant
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3/15/2012 2:28:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 1:34:34 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 3/15/2012 1:19:59 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 3/14/2012 10:24:39 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
If there is no objective morality, why is rape wrong?

I will do you one better, even if rape is objectively "wrong", why should one not do objectively wrong things ?

because the only way something could be objectively wrong - is if its outside of ourselves and beyond what we feel or think.

If that's so then there has to be a construct behind it, and the only logical construct that can create objective morality is a personal construct.

If an objective morality has to exist outside of a person, and assuming God is a person.......does God have an objective moral reality ?. I hope your not going to special plead God as an exemption of your rules.

A personal moral construct is AKA God. If God is real, then we know there is punishment for those things, hence we should not do them.

An appeal to consequences, very practical, maybe open to the charge of selfishness ? Also a moral system can have consequences absent God.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12