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Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/15/2012 2:15:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The trinity formulation is a Johnny Come Lately utter corruption of the earliest and original believers -

"Paul habitually differentiates Christ from God" (C.J. Cadoux, A Pilgrim's Further Progress, pp. 40, 42).
"Paul never equates Jesus with God" (W.R. Matthews, The Problem of Christ in the 20th Century, Maurice Lectures, 1949, p. 22).
"Paul never gives to Christ the name or description of ‘God'" (Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. 1, p. 194).
"When the New Testament writers speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of Him nor do they think of Him as God" (J.M. Creed, The Divinity of Jesus Christ, pp. 122-123).
"Karl Rahner [leading Roman Catholic spokesman] points out with so much emphasis that the Son in the New Testament is never described as ‘ho theos' [the one God]" (A.T. Hanson, Grace and Truth, p. 66).
"The clear evidence of John is that Jesus refuses the claim to be God…Jesus vigorously denied the blasphemy of being God or His substitute" (J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, pp. 175, 176).
"In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God's heavenly court, just as the angels were — though as God's Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them" (Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, 1967-68, Vol. 50, p. 258).
"What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God Himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God" (Ibid., pp. 258, 259).
"The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus...certainly never believed himself to be God" (Ibid., p. 251).
"When [first-century Christians] assigned Jesus such honorific titles as Christ, Son of Man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God but that he did God's work" (Ibid., p. 250).
"The ancients made a wrong use of [John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"] to prove that Christ is...of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement that he has with the Father" (John Calvin, Commentary on John).

&

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980

&

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

&

"Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity" (Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 15, p. 54).

&

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . . ( p. 160 - (Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/15/2012 2:25:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?

Only if you interpret it as so.
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?

Again, only if you interpret it as so.

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?

Depends. In 300 AD, the council of nicea voted on this and accepted the trinity as doctrine. Those who opposed it were ex-communicated and banished.

4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?

No idea. Couldnt care less, really.
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

Nope.
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/15/2012 4:05:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 2:25:21 AM, tkubok wrote:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?

Only if you interpret it as so.
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?

Again, only if you interpret it as so.

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?

Depends. In 300 AD, the council of nicea voted on this and accepted the trinity as doctrine. Those who opposed it were ex-communicated and banished.

4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?

No idea. Couldnt care less, really.
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

Nope.

ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

Your responses to Questions 1 and 2 --"Only if you interpret it as so"--are non-responses. Only a "YES" or a "NO" response is acceptable.

Your answer to Question 3 is incorrect. I specifically referred to Jesus early disciples and apostles "who accompanied him" in the Bible. The Roman Catholics showed up after Jesus was back in heaven. Then they proceeded to hijack Christianity and bring in pagan falsehoods that they borrowed from people who did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible--which I indicated in my opening post.

Your answer to Question 4 is a non-response when you say: "Couldn't care less."

Your answer to Question 5 is correct.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/15/2012 4:09:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
To some the trinity, God as father, son, holy spirit is fine.

But if I say, well how about, God as Grandfather, father, mother, son, holy spirit.......well that's just stupid and absurd.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/15/2012 4:43:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 4:05:06 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

Your responses to Questions 1 and 2 --"Only if you interpret it as so"--are non-responses. Only a "YES" or a "NO" response is acceptable.

To me, they are both NO.

Your answer to Question 3 is incorrect. I specifically referred to Jesus early disciples and apostles "who accompanied him" in the Bible. The Roman Catholics showed up after Jesus was back in heaven. Then they proceeded to hijack Christianity and bring in pagan falsehoods that they borrowed from people who did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible--which I indicated in my opening post.

We already know that christians debated whether Jesus was actually God or not. It was only until 300 AD that we have the first mention of the concept and word "Trinity". Neither Jesus nor Paul refferences anything regarding the trinity itself.

Your answer to Question 4 is a non-response when you say: "Couldn't care less."
Its not a yes-or-no question. Therefore "Couldnt care less" is an answer. Just not the answer you were looking for.
Your answer to Question 5 is correct.

Thanks.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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3/15/2012 5:08:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

John...and Essenes.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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3/15/2012 11:36:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

I thank you for this discussion but I have to point out some key concepts that do not seem to be taken into account.

-Judaism is far older than any of the Pagan religions.
-Hebraic terminology holds God as plural (Elohim) and yet of one essence
-We know little of Judaic writings prior to Christ as most surviving validates Christianity and Christians have used them in the past.
-Christianity IS a Judaic messianic interpretation of the scriptures.
-Christianity from its earliest accounts interprets that we as humans were made in God's image in Genesis.
§Father, Mother, Child. We all share a single human essence but are all distinct persons. (Hence image of God, describing God)
http://www.newadvent.org...
St Gregory's account here, view chapter XI around 350 defending the councils beliefs of the triune nature of God.

"What was Adam? A creature of God. What then was Eve? A fragment of the creature. And what was Seth? The begotten of both. Does it then seem to you that Creature and Fragment and Begotten are the same thing? Of course it does not. But were not these persons consubstantial? Of course they were. Well then, here it is an acknowledged fact that different persons may have the same substance. I say this, not that I would attribute creation or fraction or any property of body to the Godhead"

-The council of Nicea is a Biblical concept, the first two councils were (Acts 15 and Galatians 2)
-In the council of Nicea only 2 dissenting opinions out of 318.
-The council showed that arianism was new at that year and the Trinity was geographically everywhere, showing it was early.

Concerning the pagan religions –
-There is not any writings showing a ‘more divine' trinity concept in any of the pagan religions.
-These religions were pantheonistic, have many many gods not just three.
-Christianity also holds the pagan gods are real but demons/fallen angels. Deut 32 for example.
-Satan is God of this world.
-More than just Satan have authority. We see Abaddon and Apollo, fallen angels also hold authority but are trapped because of past actions in the Book of Revelation under the river Euphrates.
-It would be likely that the demons would setup a structure of hierarchy mirroring that of heaven, having the three most powerful at the top.

I believe all of these concepts show that the Triune God is the most accurate interpretation based upon our forefathers beliefs and any pagan similarity is accounted for by the explanatory power of the scriptures.

Let me know your thoughts.
Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/15/2012 3:32:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 11:36:31 AM, Gileandos wrote:

I thank you for this discussion but I have to point out some key concepts that do not seem to be taken into account.

-Judaism is far older than any of the Pagan religions.


ALTER2EGO -to- GILEANDOS:
That's right. Judaism is older than pagan religions—and the ancient Hebrews were monotheistic (worship of one God). So how do we wind up with a 3-prong trinity god (polytheism)? A 3-prong god violates the Shema, found at Deuteronomy 6:4, which reads as follows:

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

I hope you will explain to me where that verse of scripture says anything about 3 gods combined into one.

At 3/15/2012 11:36:31 AM, Gileandos wrote:

-Hebraic terminology holds God as plural (Elohim) and yet of one essence


ALTER2EGO -to- GILEANDOS:
The Hebrew word Elohim is not with reference to a plural god. The word for God—Elohim—combines a plural noun with a singular verb. That's the clue that "Elohim" in this instance is speaking about a singular person--because it's accompanied by a singular verb.

Let me explain. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is used most often in the Bible to signify the plural of majesty, dignity or excellence. It's a way of saying "EXTREME majesty, dignity or excellence." This word is used in the scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (even when the idol god is singular), and it's also used with reference to mere humans. Below is one such example of it being used in the Bible with a singular idol god:

DAGON--GOD OF THE PHILISTINES (Judges 16:23)
This false god of the Philistines is identified with the word "Elohim" even though Dagon is a singular god.
http://ancienthistory.about.com...

SUMMARIZATION: Whenever "Elohim" is used in the Bible with reference to Jehovah, it's only done for emphasis in terms of God's majesty, dignity, and excellence. The tip off is this: the verb accompanying "Elohim" is a singular verb. Whenever "Elohim" is with reference to plural gods, the verb is always a plural verb. This is confirmed by thequotations below from three independent sources concerning the use of the word "Elohim":

"Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il. It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".
http://www.enotes.com...
http://www.israelofgod.org...

"It is characteristic of Hebrew that extension, magnitude and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the plural.... historic Hebrew is unquestionably and uniformly monotheistic." (Source: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Volume II, page 1265)

The Encyclopedia Britannica confirms that the term "Elohim" is used to express extreme majesty and that it's used when speaking of singular gods such as the Moabite god Chemosh and is also used for angels, kings, and judges, as follows:

"A plural of majesty, the term Elohim-though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofetim), and the Messiah-is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, "the God," and sometimes with a further identification Elohim hayyim, meaning "the living God."
http://dictionary.reference.com...

I will further point out that the word "Elohim" appears 35 times in the Genesis account of creation, and the accompanying verb is always singular.

SUMMARIZATION: The Moabite god Chemosh is a singular god and is identified with the word "Elohim" accompanied by a singular verb. The Philistine god Dagon is a singular god and is identified with the word "Elohim" accompanied by a singular verb. The ancient Hebrews used "Elohim" for plurality at times, but whenever they did, the word "Elohim" was accompanied by a plural verb. Whenever the ancient Israelites used Elohim with reference to Jehovah, they used it to emphasize magnitude and dignity, and it was always accompanied by a singular verb—indicating a singular God. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia confirmed that the ancient Israelites were "unquestionably and uniformly monotheistic," meaning they would not have worshipped a triune god.

At 3/15/2012 11:36:31 AM, Gileandos wrote:

http://www.newadvent.org...
St Gregory's account here, view chapter XI around 350 defending the councils beliefs of the triune nature of God.


ALTER2EGO -to- GILEANDOS:
Let me ask you this: Did St. Gregory's writings appear in the Judeo Christian Bible?
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
yoda878
Posts: 902
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3/16/2012 10:19:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?

No
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
No he called God his Father

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
no

4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
IDK where the word came form but the concept came from scripture.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me aout of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast agiven me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the awords which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I bcame out from thee, and they have cbelieved that thou didst send me.

9 I apray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which bthou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and anone of them is blost, but the son of cperdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my ajoy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the aworld, but that thou shouldest bkeep them from the cevil.

16 They are not of the aworld, even as I am not of the world.

17 aSanctify them through thy btruth: thy word is ctruth.

18 As thou hast asent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I asanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither apray I for these alone, but for them also which shall bbelieve on me through their word;

21 That they all may be aone; as thou, bFather, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be aone, even as we are bone:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made aperfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast bloved them, as thou hast loved me

5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
no

The phrase "one Lord" is preceded in the Hebrew by elohenu; it is our God is one. The word for one is not a numerical one but is actually a united one.. Its also the same one in Hebrew used in the bible for marriage.
Gen. 2:24 Adam and Eve become one flesh (Here two personalities who come together in marriage and are one, not one person but in unity. God sees them as one even though they are not physically fused together like Siamese twins. If we take the Oneness view this would be the only consideration for our understanding
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MyVoiceInYourHead
Posts: 260
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3/16/2012 11:42:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 4:09:07 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
To some the trinity, God as father, son, holy spirit is fine.

But if I say, well how about, God as Grandfather, father, mother, son, holy spirit.......well that's just stupid and absurd.

Exactly. God should never have incarnated as just a man. It should never have been just Jesus as God in human form. It should have been Jesus and his wife (I hear Mary Magdalene had a soft spot for him?) so they could bring up kids and show us how it should be done. And in the interest of sexual equality, God should have incarnated as two gay blokes as well plus a lesbian couple.

We should have had a Holy Sextet.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/19/2012 12:19:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 3:32:31 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:

That's right. Judaism is older than pagan religions—and the ancient Hebrews were monotheistic (worship of one God). So how do we wind up with a 3-prong trinity god (polytheism)? A 3-prong god violates the Shema, found at Deuteronomy 6:4, which reads as follows:

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

This is not true, but it is a common misconception. The ancient Hebrews were not monotheistic. Their religion evolved, just as all religions evolved. They were polytheistic, and believed in a whole pantheon of Gods. By the time most of the Old Testament was written, they were Henotheistic. They believed in the existence of other Gods, but only worshiped YHVH.

The Hebrew word Elohim is not with reference to a plural god. The word for God—Elohim—combines a plural noun with a singular verb. That's the clue that "Elohim" in this instance is speaking about a singular person--because it's accompanied by a singular verb.

Close but not quite- Elohim is a collective noun, referring to a group. Yes it is singular in that it is just one group, but it is a group consisting of many individuals. Like the word "Olympian" or "Aesir" or "Vanir". The reason why Dagon and assorted other gods were called Elohim is because they were all part of the same pantheon.

"Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il.

El was the name of one of the Gods- the leader of the group, the Zeus or Odin of the Hebrew Pantheon. "El ohim" means "El's Family". Since they were the family of Gods, yes, it also meant powerful, exalted, and divine.

As for the Trinity, one common theory is that the Trinity represented the Yehveh's holy family unit- It's not Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but Father, Mother, and Son. The "Holy Ghost" represented his wife, the goddess Asherah, also known in Greek as Sophia. She is also known as "Lady Wisdom" in Psalms.
Alter2Ego
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3/19/2012 2:30:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 4:43:23 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/15/2012 4:05:06 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

Your responses to Questions 1 and 2 --"Only if you interpret it as so"--are non-responses. Only a "YES" or a "NO" response is acceptable.

To me, they are both NO.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

For reasons of clarity, below are the questions from my opening post--to which you are responding.

At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?

Your answers to Questions 1 and 2 are now correct. The Trinity is NOT a Bible teaching, and Jesus Christ did not teach it.

At 3/15/2012 4:43:23 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/15/2012 4:05:06 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

Your answer to Question 3 is incorrect. I specifically referred to Jesus early disciples and apostles "who accompanied him" in the Bible. The Roman Catholics showed up after Jesus was back in heaven. Then they proceeded to hijack Christianity and bring in pagan falsehoods that they borrowed from people who did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible--which I indicated in my opening post.

We already know that christians debated whether Jesus was actually God or not. It was only until 300 AD that we have the first mention of the concept and word "Trinity". Neither Jesus nor Paul refferences anything regarding the trinity itself.


ALTER2EGO -to- TKUBOK:

Your answer to Question 3 is now correct. The early disciples of Jesus who accompanied him in the Bible teaching work did not teach a trinity dogma.

The "Christians" you are referring to that debated whether Jesus was actually God were the Roman Catholics—as in ROMANS. That's right. The Romans executed Jesus Christ and spent more than a century violently persecuting Christians. Then to add insult to injury, they hijacked Christianity and proceeded to pollute it with false teachings.

The Romans had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). It was therefore an easy matter for them—after they adopted Christianity—to pollute it by bringing in pagan teachings, including the polytheistic Trinity god and the false hellfire doctrine.

A 3-prong god violates the Shema found in the Hebrew scriptures, which reads as follows:

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

You did very well on the questions. I'm glad you at least understand that the trinity doctrine is not accepted by all Christians and that it is not a Bible teaching.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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3/19/2012 2:42:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/15/2012 2:15:17 AM, Composer wrote:
The trinity formulation is a Johnny Come Lately utter corruption of the earliest and original believers -

"Paul habitually differentiates Christ from God" (C.J. Cadoux, A Pilgrim's Further Progress, pp. 40, 42).
"Paul never equates Jesus with God" (W.R. Matthews, The Problem of Christ in the 20th Century, Maurice Lectures, 1949, p. 22).
"Paul never gives to Christ the name or description of ‘God'" (Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. 1, p. 194).
"When the New Testament writers speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of Him nor do they think of Him as God" (J.M. Creed, The Divinity of Jesus Christ, pp. 122-123).
"Karl Rahner [leading Roman Catholic spokesman] points out with so much emphasis that the Son in the New Testament is never described as ‘ho theos' [the one God]" (A.T. Hanson, Grace and Truth, p. 66).
"The clear evidence of John is that Jesus refuses the claim to be God…Jesus vigorously denied the blasphemy of being God or His substitute" (J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, pp. 175, 176).
"In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God's heavenly court, just as the angels were — though as God's Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them" (Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, 1967-68, Vol. 50, p. 258).
"What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God Himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God" (Ibid., pp. 258, 259).
"The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus...certainly never believed himself to be God" (Ibid., p. 251).
"When [first-century Christians] assigned Jesus such honorific titles as Christ, Son of Man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God but that he did God's work" (Ibid., p. 250).
"The ancients made a wrong use of [John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"] to prove that Christ is...of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement that he has with the Father" (John Calvin, Commentary on John).

&

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980

&

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

&

"Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity" (Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 15, p. 54).

&

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . . ( p. 160 - (Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

ALTER2EGO -to- COMPOSER:

I agree with you that the trinity dogma is not Bible-based. It is pagan in origin and violates all logic. Unfortunately, many who consider themselves to be Christians have made this teaching the centerpiece of Christendom. As a Christian, this concerns me because the result is that persons who believe this false doctrine are worshipping a god that does not exist in the Judeo-Christian Bible. That's why I started this thread.

Thanks for your fine research on the matter.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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3/19/2012 2:56:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/16/2012 10:19:28 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?

No
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
No he called God his Father

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
no

4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
IDK where the word came form but the concept came from scripture.


6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me aout of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast agiven me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the awords which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I bcame out from thee, and they have cbelieved that thou didst send me.

9 I apray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which bthou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and anone of them is blost, but the son of cperdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my ajoy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the aworld, but that thou shouldest bkeep them from the cevil.

16 They are not of the aworld, even as I am not of the world.

17 aSanctify them through thy btruth: thy word is ctruth.

18 As thou hast asent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I asanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither apray I for these alone, but for them also which shall bbelieve on me through their word;

21 That they all may be aone; as thou, bFather, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be aone, even as we are bone:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made aperfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast bloved them, as thou hast loved me


5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
no

The phrase "one Lord" is preceded in the Hebrew by elohenu; it is our God is one. The word for one is not a numerical one but is actually a united one.. Its also the same one in Hebrew used in the bible for marriage.
Gen. 2:24 Adam and Eve become one flesh (Here two personalities who come together in marriage and are one, not one person but in unity. God sees them as one even though they are not physically fused together like Siamese twins. If we take the Oneness view this would be the only consideration for our understanding


You acknowledged the following:

1. The Trinity is not a Bible teaching.
2. Jesus, the founder of Christianity, did not teach the trinity.
3. His early apostles who accompanied him did not teach the trinity.
5. The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.

Your answers to Questions 1, 2, 3, and 5 are right on point. Yet, for question 4: "Where does the word "godhead" come from?" you responded as follows:

YODA878 Quote:
"IDK where the word came form but the concept came from scripture."

You then proceeded to follow that statement up with the quotation of several verses of scriptures. Please explain to me the parts of your quoted scriptures that indicate a godhead. Keep in mind that you already acknowledged that Jesus Christ and his early apostles and disciples did not teach this doctrine and the word "trinity" is not in the Bible.

At this point, you are contradicting yourself with the answer you gave for Question #4 where you said that the concept of a godhead came from scripture.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/19/2012 3:24:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 12:19:57 AM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/15/2012 3:32:31 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:

That's right. Judaism is older than pagan religions—and the ancient Hebrews were monotheistic (worship of one God). So how do we wind up with a 3-prong trinity god (polytheism)? A 3-prong god violates the Shema, found at Deuteronomy 6:4, which reads as follows:

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)


This is not true, but it is a common misconception. The ancient Hebrews were not monotheistic. Their religion evolved, just as all religions evolved. They were polytheistic, and believed in a whole pantheon of Gods. By the time most of the Old Testament was written, they were Henotheistic. They believed in the existence of other Gods, but only worshiped YHVH.


The Hebrew word Elohim is not with reference to a plural god. The word for God—Elohim—combines a plural noun with a singular verb. That's the clue that "Elohim" in this instance is speaking about a singular person--because it's accompanied by a singular verb.

Close but not quite- Elohim is a collective noun, referring to a group. Yes it is singular in that it is just one group, but it is a group consisting of many individuals. Like the word "Olympian" or "Aesir" or "Vanir". The reason why Dagon and assorted other gods were called Elohim is because they were all part of the same pantheon.


"Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il.

El was the name of one of the Gods- the leader of the group, the Zeus or Odin of the Hebrew Pantheon. "El ohim" means "El's Family". Since they were the family of Gods, yes, it also meant powerful, exalted, and divine.

As for the Trinity, one common theory is that the Trinity represented the Yehveh's holy family unit- It's not Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but Father, Mother, and Son. The "Holy Ghost" represented his wife, the goddess Asherah, also known in Greek as Sophia. She is also known as "Lady Wisdom" in Psalms.

If the trinity justifies its conceptual existence to this it would contradict the old testament. To just use the examples of Asherah..

Deut 16:21 Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God

Exodus 34:14 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

Deut. 7:5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

2 King 17:16 They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.

The importance of the "oneness" of god is repeated over and over in the old testament.
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yoda878
Posts: 902
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3/19/2012 8:39:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 2:56:49 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/16/2012 10:19:28 AM, yoda878 wrote:
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?

No
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
No he called God his Father

3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
no

4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
IDK where the word came form but the concept came from scripture.


6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me aout of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast agiven me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the awords which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I bcame out from thee, and they have cbelieved that thou didst send me.

9 I apray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which bthou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and anone of them is blost, but the son of cperdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my ajoy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the aworld, but that thou shouldest bkeep them from the cevil.

16 They are not of the aworld, even as I am not of the world.

17 aSanctify them through thy btruth: thy word is ctruth.

18 As thou hast asent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I asanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither apray I for these alone, but for them also which shall bbelieve on me through their word;

21 That they all may be aone; as thou, bFather, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be aone, even as we are bone:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made aperfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast bloved them, as thou hast loved me


5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
no

The phrase "one Lord" is preceded in the Hebrew by elohenu; it is our God is one. The word for one is not a numerical one but is actually a united one.. Its also the same one in Hebrew used in the bible for marriage.
Gen. 2:24 Adam and Eve become one flesh (Here two personalities who come together in marriage and are one, not one person but in unity. God sees them as one even though they are not physically fused together like Siamese twins. If we take the Oneness view this would be the only consideration for our understanding


You acknowledged the following:

1. The Trinity is not a Bible teaching.
2. Jesus, the founder of Christianity, did not teach the trinity.
3. His early apostles who accompanied him did not teach the trinity.
5. The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible.

Your answers to Questions 1, 2, 3, and 5 are right on point. Yet, for question 4: "Where does the word "godhead" come from?" you responded as follows:

YODA878 Quote:
"IDK where the word came form but the concept came from scripture."

You then proceeded to follow that statement up with the quotation of several verses of scriptures. Please explain to me the parts of your quoted scriptures that indicate a godhead. Keep in mind that you already acknowledged that Jesus Christ and his early apostles and disciples did not teach this doctrine and the word "trinity" is not in the Bible.

I will admit that the Godhead thing confuses me. I personally do not believe in the trinity. I do not believe that they are the same being. My stand is that They are three separate beings, with a common reasoning. like i explained below like a marriage they are two that work together. With God at the top.

God
Jesus, Holly Ghost

At this point, you are contradicting yourself with the answer you gave for Question #4 where you said that the concept of a godhead came from scripture.

I think its explained best here, to me this is not a contradiction.
The phrase "one Lord" is preceded in the Hebrew by elohenu; it is our God is one. The word for one is not a numerical one but is actually a united one.. Its also the same one in Hebrew used in the bible for marriage.
Gen. 2:24 Adam and Eve become one flesh (Here two personalities who come together in marriage and are one, not one person but in unity. God sees them as one even though they are not physically fused together like Siamese twins. If we take the Oneness view this would be the only consideration for our understanding
Me
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/19/2012 9:31:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/14/2012 11:42:06 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


The Trinity has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net...

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk...

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
$50 to anyone who finds a verse where Jesus is explicitly saying, "I am God."
XDebatorX
Posts: 59
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3/19/2012 6:57:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are many good reasons to believe that the Trinity was a later fabricated idea in Christianity which does not hold up to scrutiny. There are many verses in the bible which affirm the uniqueness of God and how he is unlike his creation. He is all knowing and all powerful. He alone is eternal. Let me show some bible verses which agree with me.

==Book of 1 Timothy Chapter 6 Verses 15-16==
"Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Potentate is another word for ruler or king

==Gospel of Mark Chapter 13 Verse 32==
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

In these two verses we see that God is all powerful, unapproachable and immortal. On the hour only God knows everything, Jesus and the Holy Ghose do not know(According to Mark). Why is this? Because Jesus was not God and therefore the trinity is false.

HOWEVER, if we leave aside the bible and use our logic, we see that Jesus (a man) cannot be God because you would have contradictory attributes which cannot both exist.

Attributes of Human beings: Needy (requires food,water etc), limited power (cannot overcome everything), and not all knowing

Attributes of God: Not needy (doesn't require any food water), all powerful, and all knowing

Therefore if we use some logic, we see it is impossible for Jesus to have all these characteristics at once. So he cannot be both man and God at the same time because it commits a basic logical fallacy, contradictions...

Therefore I think there are good reasons both from the bible and from simple logic to believe the trinity is false...
Alter2Ego
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3/20/2012 3:51:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 3:24:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:

If the trinity justifies its conceptual existence to this it would contradict the old testament. To just use the examples of Asherah..

Deut 16:21 Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God

Exodus 34:14 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

Deut. 7:5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

2 King 17:16 They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.

The importance of the "oneness" of god is repeated over and over in the old testament.


ALTER2EGO -to- AIRMAX1227:

I agree with you 100%. The reason why I started this thread is to debunk the trinity--by means of the scriptures. As you can see by my opening post, this falsehood came from pagans who did not even worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/20/2012 4:13:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 3:51:57 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/19/2012 3:24:31 AM, airmax1227 wrote:

If the trinity justifies its conceptual existence to this it would contradict the old testament. To just use the examples of Asherah..

Deut 16:21 Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God

Exodus 34:14 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

Deut. 7:5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

2 King 17:16 They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.

The importance of the "oneness" of god is repeated over and over in the old testament.


ALTER2EGO -to- AIRMAX1227:

I agree with you 100%. The reason why I started this thread is to debunk the trinity--by means of the scriptures. As you can see by my opening post, this falsehood came from pagans who did not even worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

My mistake.. I had just kinda skimmed over what you wrote.. Looking back at the entire thread its clear we agree on this. Its baffling to me that people can deny the significant pagan ideas absorbed into the basic theology of Christianity. These ideas naturally contradict the Judeo (and OT in general) theological foundation Christianity was initially built upon.
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Alter2Ego
Posts: 235
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3/20/2012 4:44:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 4:13:14 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/20/2012 3:51:57 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:

ALTER2EGO -to- AIRMAX1227:

I agree with you 100%. The reason why I started this thread is to debunk the trinity--by means of the scriptures. As you can see by my opening post, this falsehood came from pagans who did not even worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

My mistake.. I had just kinda skimmed over what you wrote.. Looking back at the entire thread its clear we agree on this. Its baffling to me that people can deny the significant pagan ideas absorbed into the basic theology of Christianity. These ideas naturally contradict the Judeo (and OT in general) theological foundation Christianity was initially built upon.

ALTER2EGO -to- AIRMAX1227:

I'm glad we're of the same mind on this issue. You used scriptures—within the correct context—in your rebuttal against the 3-prong god. It's vitally important that one uses scriptures and that the scriptures are within the correct context when arguing against false religions doctrines. In this way, those who wish to argue for trinity will find themselves arguing with God, since it was his inspired Word that the rebuttal scriptures came from.

People who defend false religious doctrines just don't realize the seriousness of the matter. The trinity dogma is pagan and amounts to idolatry. Those who ascribe to it are in reality offering worshiping to a 3-prong god that is nonexistent. In other words, their worship is in vain since their prayers are falling on deaf ears.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:40:05 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
You don't support the trinity? What do believe Jesus was then?

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the most superior of Jehovah's angels. Jesus was the first angel created entirely by Jehovah.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)

Jehovah used the pre-human Jesus to help him create everything and everybody else--including the other angels.

"{16} because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:16-17)

Jesus Christ became the promised Messiah when his life force was transferred in the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. By means of his sacrificial death, he freed all humanity from Adamic sin and death because of his shed blood. In other words, he gave us the opportunity of gaining everlasting life where once we were all condemned to everlasting death. Not only that, Jesus mediates for us with Jehovah. It is only through him that we can approach God in prayer.

"{5} For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, a man, CHRIST JESUS, {6} who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all -- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

The resurrected Jesus Christ is the King of Jehovah's heavenly kingdom. He remains the most powerful angel in heaven--meaning he is second in command to Almighty God Jehovah.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
XDebatorX
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3/20/2012 7:37:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Does Jesus ever affirm this in the bible by saying, "I am an angel" or "The king of heaven". If not then you have a weak case...
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/20/2012 8:58:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:40:05 PM, XDebatorX wrote:
You don't support the trinity? What do believe Jesus was then?

ALTER2EGO -to- XDebatorX:

The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is the most superior of Jehovah's angels. Jesus was the first angel created entirely by Jehovah.
#flip-flopping ideology: Previous J.w teaching denounced the posibility of Story book jesus having ever been an angel -

The J.w pioneers recognised that Story book Jesus was never Michael the archangel -

Michael The Watchtower Reprints, November 11, 1879, p. 48 "'Let all the angels of God worship him'; (that must include Michael , the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)"

At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)
"The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse 18 to be "the firstborn from the dead".

At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
Jehovah used the pre-human Jesus to help him create everything and everybody else--including the other angels.
IF Story book literally pre-existed then it couldn't have been ' conceived in Mary's little womb ' it must have ' morphed then transplanted there! '

At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
"{16} because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:16-17)
Hence your alleged naughty Satan was created and kept going by your naughty evil creating jehovah!

At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
Jesus Christ became the promised Messiah when his life force was transferred in the womb of a Jewish virgin named Mary. By means of his sacrificial death, he freed all humanity from Adamic sin and death because of his shed blood.
Incorrect for many reasons e.g. -

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts—as having died instead of us—as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us—death—he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, "if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins" (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not "forgiven," for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God—the forgiveness of our sins "through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25 ). (Robert Roberts)

At 3/20/2012 5:00:20 PM, Alter2Ego wrote:
The resurrected Jesus Christ is the King of Jehovah's heavenly kingdom. He remains the most powerful angel in heaven--meaning he is second in command to Almighty God Jehovah.
See again - #flip-flopping ideology: shown above!
Composer
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3/20/2012 9:02:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian…It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

Hence the Johnny Come Lately trinitarian ideology is a corrupt violation of that Earliest and Original belief & teachings -

As Story book Paul said in Gal. 1:8, the trinitarian ideology qualifies as an accursed ideology and must be rejected!
Zetsubou
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3/20/2012 11:38:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus is explicitly and inexplicitly called God throughout. The trinity however is never stated only inferred. The Bible describes three faces of God, reconciling that with the idea of one God is, quite plainly, Trinitarian theology.

If one were to read the Bible without teaching it would not impossible to end at either conclusion given the vague nature. Trinitarianism is only the dominant school of thought thanks to Roman Politics; Athanasius beat Arius.
'sup DDO -- july 2013