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Walt Disney's scientific resurrection

IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/18/2012 10:04:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some people like Walt Disney have frozen their bodies so that scientist can one day "resurrect" them. But even if scientist restored Walt Disney's body to the way it was when he died, would it be Walt Disney that wakes up? Or would it be an identical clone of Walt Disney?
Do you really believe if you died today and your body frozen, that you could be resurrected so that in a sense, you wake up from death? Or do you believe that when you die, you just die and any mad scientist who restores your body to living condition again is just making an identical clone of you?

I hope I was being clear enough. As for why I put this under religion, its because it kinda deals with the soul and whether you believe you have one or not.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/18/2012 10:17:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 10:04:54 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Some people like Walt Disney have frozen their bodies so that scientist can one day "resurrect" them. But even if scientist restored Walt Disney's body to the way it was when he died, would it be Walt Disney that wakes up? Or would it be an identical clone of Walt Disney?
Do you really believe if you died today and your body frozen, that you could be resurrected so that in a sense, you wake up from death? Or do you believe that when you die, you just die and any mad scientist who restores your body to living condition again is just making an identical clone of you?

I think that's a myth about Disney, but assuming it's true, it depends on what future technology they use to revive the body.

If they actually repair the body, so the brain is the same brain he always had, then he is the same person.

If they clone a new body but it's the same brain transplanted into it, then he is the same person.

If they build a robot body and put his brain in it, then he is the same person.

(If I could insert pictures on this website, at this point I would put Nixon's head on Bender's body from Futurama. :) )

Only if they create a brand new brain and copy the mind into it would this be a question.

It depends on what you think *you* are- the hardware or the software.

If you are the software, then transferring your program to a new computer does not change the program, thus you are still you.

I hope I was being clear enough. As for why I put this under religion, its because it kinda deals with the soul and whether you believe you have one or not.

I'm an Atheist, I think "soul" is just a magic word for "mind", like "dragon" is a magic word for "dinosaur". I am open to there being some other form of mater/energy that we have not yet discovered that is involved in PSI phenomena and ghost sightings, but even that would just be a part of the mind/brain.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/18/2012 10:22:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Utopian So what I'm inferring is that if scientist restored your body, you believe you could wake from death? I know a bodily restoration would result in the same person with the same personality and memories, but would it be you? Like I said, I think you answered in the affirmative.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/18/2012 11:16:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 10:22:33 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
@Utopian So what I'm inferring is that if scientist restored your body, you believe you could wake from death? I know a bodily restoration would result in the same person with the same personality and memories, but would it be you? Like I said, I think you answered in the affirmative.

Death is not some magical word- it just means no longer alive.

Again my computer example. Our minds are software, and our brain is the hard drive, RAM, and CPU. The rest of the body is the screen, keyboard, mouse, printer, webcam, etc.

When you turn off a computer, you can turn it on again- and it's the same computer.

You can have it go into sleep mode, or hibernate, or do a full shutdown- either way, when you turn it back on, it is turned back on.

As long as the hard drive (brain) was not damaged, resulting in loss of some of the software (mind) then you are the same person.

Think of it this way- right now, with our level of technology, people get organ transplants.

If someone gets a kidney trasplant, do you think they are a different person? How about a liver transplant? How about a heart/lung transplant?

How about the heart, lungs, stomach, intestines, and the entire contents of the abdominal cavity all being transplanted- would that make someone a different person?

How about replacing their legs and arms with prosthetics?

I'm sure you accept all of these procedures as simply operations on the body while the "personhood" remains intact, right? So what makes it different if it is all done simultaneously?
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/18/2012 11:40:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 11:16:42 PM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/18/2012 10:22:33 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:

Death is not some magical word- it just means no longer alive.

Again my computer example. Our minds are software, and our brain is the hard drive, RAM, and CPU. The rest of the body is the screen, keyboard, mouse, printer, webcam, etc.

When you turn off a computer, you can turn it on again- and it's the same computer.

You can have it go into sleep mode, or hibernate, or do a full shutdown- either way, when you turn it back on, it is turned back on.

As long as the hard drive (brain) was not damaged, resulting in loss of some of the software (mind) then you are the same person.

Think of it this way- right now, with our level of technology, people get organ transplants.

If someone gets a kidney trasplant, do you think they are a different person? How about a liver transplant? How about a heart/lung transplant?

How about the heart, lungs, stomach, intestines, and the entire contents of the abdominal cavity all being transplanted- would that make someone a different person?

How about replacing their legs and arms with prosthetics?

I'm sure you accept all of these procedures as simply operations on the body while the "personhood" remains intact, right? So what makes it different if it is all done simultaneously?

In response to the computer, you could compare wiping out the harddrive to death. But would replacing the harddrive with the an exact replica be the same as restoring the computer? Or would it just be creating an identical copy of the computer?
You seem to be pretty confident that it would be restoring the computer. But how can we be sure? How can you say without a doubt that the existence of the human being will be restored instead of replaced with an identical clone? When you turn a computer off, that information is still there. But when you die, all that information is erased, so wouldn't restoring be the same as creating an identical copy?
wiping out harddrive=death
replacing harddrive with identical harddrive= Identical you or same you?

As for the illustrations of the keyboard and organs, while it is true that you are the same you if these, it is because these parts have nothing to do with your mind. So replacing them would have no effect on the mind, you could even exist without them.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/18/2012 11:57:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 11:40:25 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 3/18/2012 11:16:42 PM, Utopian wrote:

As long as the hard drive (brain) was not damaged, resulting in loss of some of the software (mind) then you are the same person.

I'm sure you accept all of these procedures as simply operations on the body while the "personhood" remains intact, right? So what makes it different if it is all done simultaneously?

In response to the computer, you could compare wiping out the harddrive to death. But would replacing the harddrive with the an exact replica be the same as restoring the computer? Or would it just be creating an identical copy of the computer?
You seem to be pretty confident that it would be restoring the computer. But how can we be sure? How can you say without a doubt that the existence of the human being will be restored instead of replaced with an identical clone? When you turn a computer off, that information is still there. But when you die, all that information is erased, so wouldn't restoring be the same as creating an identical copy?
wiping out harddrive=death
replacing harddrive with identical harddrive= Identical you or same you?

As for the illustrations of the keyboard and organs, while it is true that you are the same you if these, it is because these parts have nothing to do with your mind. So replacing them would have no effect on the mind, you could even exist without them.

As I said in my first reply, if the brain is preserved and simply put on a new body, then it's still you. When you die your brain is not wiped clean. Your neural pathways are still there, it just as no electrochemical impulses traveling across them. It is just like a computer hard drive turned off, with no electricity running through it, yet it still has the data it had on it when it was turned off.

It's not a replica, it's the same brain.

In the cases where there is a brand new brain created and the mind is transfered into it, then we would be operating under the assumption that these scientists know how to use computers to transfer all the data.

In computer terms, that sounds like transferring the whole contents of a Mac hard drive, including OSX and the Mac version of the Adobe suite, and putting them on a PC while simultaneously translating them into Windows 7 and the Windows version of the Adobe suite, without the original source code.

The big "if" is we are assuming these future scientists can do such a thing, and if they can, then the new you is you.

I think what you are getting at is the continuity of consciousness. This question is often expressed as the Star Trek Transporter, or the Star Trek Replicator.

A Transporter is simply a Replicator that destroys the original. So, the duplicate has the same "sense" of being the original person because he is an exact duplicate.

If the original is not destroyed, you have two individuals who are exactly identical- up to the point of replication. After that point they start having their own life experiences, and become two different people.

Remember all that you are is your nature and your nurture. Your DNA and your life history. If someone else has your exact DNA and your exact life history, they ARE you.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/18/2012 11:58:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 11:16:42 PM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/18/2012 10:22:33 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
@Utopian So what I'm inferring is that if scientist restored your body, you believe you could wake from death? I know a bodily restoration would result in the same person with the same personality and memories, but would it be you? Like I said, I think you answered in the affirmative.

Death is not some magical word- it just means no longer alive.

Again my computer example. Our minds are software, and our brain is the hard drive, RAM, and CPU. The rest of the body is the screen, keyboard, mouse, printer, webcam, etc.

When you turn off a computer, you can turn it on again- and it's the same computer.

You can have it go into sleep mode, or hibernate, or do a full shutdown- either way, when you turn it back on, it is turned back on.

As long as the hard drive (brain) was not damaged, resulting in loss of some of the software (mind) then you are the same person.

Think of it this way- right now, with our level of technology, people get organ transplants.

If someone gets a kidney trasplant, do you think they are a different person? How about a liver transplant? How about a heart/lung transplant?

How about the heart, lungs, stomach, intestines, and the entire contents of the abdominal cavity all being transplanted- would that make someone a different person?

How about replacing their legs and arms with prosthetics?

I'm sure you accept all of these procedures as simply operations on the body while the "personhood" remains intact, right? So what makes it different if it is all done simultaneously?

Oh, please debate me on your computationalism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/19/2012 12:16:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 11:57:17 PM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/18/2012 11:40:25 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
At 3/18/2012 11:16:42 PM, Utopian wrote:

As long as the hard drive (brain) was not damaged, resulting in loss of some of the software (mind) then you are the same person.

I'm sure you accept all of these procedures as simply operations on the body while the "personhood" remains intact, right? So what makes it different if it is all done simultaneously?

In response to the computer, you could compare wiping out the harddrive to death. But would replacing the harddrive with the an exact replica be the same as restoring the computer? Or would it just be creating an identical copy of the computer?
You seem to be pretty confident that it would be restoring the computer. But how can we be sure? How can you say without a doubt that the existence of the human being will be restored instead of replaced with an identical clone? When you turn a computer off, that information is still there. But when you die, all that information is erased, so wouldn't restoring be the same as creating an identical copy?
wiping out harddrive=death
replacing harddrive with identical harddrive= Identical you or same you?

As for the illustrations of the keyboard and organs, while it is true that you are the same you if these, it is because these parts have nothing to do with your mind. So replacing them would have no effect on the mind, you could even exist without them.



As I said in my first reply, if the brain is preserved and simply put on a new body, then it's still you. When you die your brain is not wiped clean. Your neural pathways are still there, it just as no electrochemical impulses traveling across them. It is just like a computer hard drive turned off, with no electricity running through it, yet it still has the data it had on it when it was turned off.

It's not a replica, it's the same brain.

In the cases where there is a brand new brain created and the mind is transfered into it, then we would be operating under the assumption that these scientists know how to use computers to transfer all the data.

In computer terms, that sounds like transferring the whole contents of a Mac hard drive, including OSX and the Mac version of the Adobe suite, and putting them on a PC while simultaneously translating them into Windows 7 and the Windows version of the Adobe suite, without the original source code.

The big "if" is we are assuming these future scientists can do such a thing, and if they can, then the new you is you.

I think what you are getting at is the continuity of consciousness. This question is often expressed as the Star Trek Transporter, or the Star Trek Replicator.

A Transporter is simply a Replicator that destroys the original. So, the duplicate has the same "sense" of being the original person because he is an exact duplicate.

If the original is not destroyed, you have two individuals who are exactly identical- up to the point of replication. After that point they start having their own life experiences, and become two different people.

Remember all that you are is your nature and your nurture. Your DNA and your life history. If someone else has your exact DNA and your exact life history, they ARE you

Thanks for the explanation. I think it would be interesting if in the future scientist do "resurrect" a person because then we can know for sure if there is an afterlife or not. Also, I think you should do the debate with pooka, I'd be interested to see where it would lead.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/19/2012 2:20:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You are never the same person from one second to the next.

This second, you are dead; this second, you are born.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/19/2012 10:15:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 2:20:27 AM, FREEDO wrote:
You are never the same person from one second to the next.

This second, you are dead; this second, you are born.

Actually the life cycle period is one over pie (the food not the number)
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/19/2012 11:32:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/18/2012 11:58:44 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Oh, please debate me on your computationalism.

OK!

This will be my first debate on this website, so be gentle. :)
And tell me what to click to initiate it, or confirm it, or whatever.

I'm a transhumanist, and key aspects of the singularity are pretty much dependent on computationalism.