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Free Will and Original Sin

Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/19/2012 11:12:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christianity is based on the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred as salvation for mankind, to counter the stigma of the Original Sin of Eve.

Yet, Eve did not do anything God did not want her to do.

So how is the Original sin a "Sin"?

Some say God created Adam and Eve with free will, and commanded them to not eat from the tree of Knowledge. Since they did eat from the tree, they broke God's command, thus sinned.

Some say it was all done to "test" Adam and Eve, but how can an all-knowing being "test" anything? "Testing" implies not knowing something, so the test gathers information.

And what is "free will" anyway?

Free Will is our ability to make decisions.

What is the basis for our decisions? The information at hand, combined with our own internal nature and nurture. Our personalities and our experiences shape how we decide what to do in any given situation.

But Adam and Eve were not babies who grew up, shaped by life experiences. They were designed as adults, and placed in Eden, a world designed for them.

DESIGNED.

That means every single aspect of their personalities were created by God. How loyal they are, how obedient they are, how gullible they are, how curious they are- shaped by God.

If God made them a little more loyal and obedient, and a little less curious and gullible, they would not have done as the snake said.

Heck, if he made the snake a little less convincing it would not have happened.

And God knew this ahead of time- even before he said "Let their be light" he KNEW everything that would happen, and he did not do a thing differently.

Thus, not only did Adam and Eve not have free will, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything but exactly what they did.

Thus, no Sin.

Thus, no need for Salvation.

Thus, no need for Christianity.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/20/2012 12:28:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 11:12:46 PM, Utopian wrote:
Christianity is based on the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred as salvation for mankind, to counter the stigma of the Original Sin of Eve.

You left out one important part, HIS life, a sinless one, as a human being, overcoming sin where Adam failed, our representative, Our Righteousness!

Yet, Eve did not do anything God did not want her to do.

Wrong!

So how is the Original sin a "Sin"?


Some say God created Adam and Eve with free will, and commanded them to not eat from the tree of Knowledge. Since they did eat from the tree, they broke God's command, thus sinned.

Some say it was all done to "test" Adam and Eve, but how can an all-knowing being "test" anything? "Testing" implies not knowing something, so the test gathers information.

Their test ,not HIS!

And what is "free will" anyway?

Free Will is our ability to make decisions.

And to live with the consequences of our decisions!

What is the basis for our decisions? The information at hand, combined with our own internal nature and nurture. Our personalities and our experiences shape how we decide what to do in any given situation.

But Adam and Eve were not babies who grew up, shaped by life experiences. They were designed as adults, and placed in Eden, a world designed for them.

DESIGNED.

Amen!

That means every single aspect of their personalities were created by God. How loyal they are, how obedient they are, how gullible they are, how curious they are- shaped by God.

As free will agents they were to make their own decisions weather to obey the creator who DESIGNED everything for their happiness or obey another voice who did nothing for them and become his subjects under his Kingdom. The Kingdom of no choice.

If God made them a little more loyal and obedient, and a little less curious and gullible, they would not have done as the snake said.

Heck, if he made the snake a little less convincing it would not have happened.

And God knew this ahead of time- even before he said "Let their be light" he KNEW everything that would happen, and he did not do a thing differently.

Love hopeth all things, subjected it in hope, free will has risk!

Thus, not only did Adam and Eve not have free will, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything but exactly what they did.

Wrong!

Thus, no Sin. Thus they choose to Sin

Thus, no need for Salvation. Therefore we need Salvation, (help!)

Thus, no need for Christianity. The only reason we have choice today is because of CHRIST.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/20/2012 12:57:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:28:23 AM, Suqua wrote:

Thus, no Sin. Thus they choose to Sin

Thus, no need for Salvation. Therefore we need Salvation, (help!)

Thus, no need for Christianity. The only reason we have choice today is because of CHRIST.

Suqua, read what I wrote again, from the top, all the way down, as one piece.
From your reply you did not understand a single bit of what I wrote at all.

All you can do is assert "wrong" and shove your fingers in your ears.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/20/2012 1:12:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 12:57:59 AM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:28:23 AM, Suqua wrote:

Thus, no Sin. Thus they choose to Sin

Thus, no need for Salvation. Therefore we need Salvation, (help!)

Thus, no need for Christianity. The only reason we have choice today is because of CHRIST.

Suqua, read what I wrote again, from the top, all the way down, as one piece.
From your reply you did not understand a single bit of what I wrote at all.

All you can do is assert "wrong" and shove your fingers in your ears.

I read everything as one piece, thats why I gave the comments. Not everything is wrong what you wrote. But what I saw as needed to be corrected I did. To reply only at the end would be far to long. I wonder who is the one that shoves his finger in his ears when he did not respond to any specifics.
Utopian
Posts: 48
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3/20/2012 1:26:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 1:12:00 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:57:59 AM, Utopian wrote:
At 3/20/2012 12:28:23 AM, Suqua wrote:

Thus, no Sin. Thus they choose to Sin

Thus, no need for Salvation. Therefore we need Salvation, (help!)

Thus, no need for Christianity. The only reason we have choice today is because of CHRIST.

Suqua, read what I wrote again, from the top, all the way down, as one piece.
From your reply you did not understand a single bit of what I wrote at all.

All you can do is assert "wrong" and shove your fingers in your ears.

I read everything as one piece, thats why I gave the comments. Not everything is wrong what you wrote. But what I saw as needed to be corrected I did. To reply only at the end would be far to long. I wonder who is the one that shoves his finger in his ears when he did not respond to any specifics.

Suqua, you had no specifics for me to respond to, just statements that showed that you don't understand the topic.

For example, you said "Their test, not His!"

THe simple fact you chose to type that shows you did not understand what I wrote.

Yes, God was testing Adam and Eve.
He was testing them to see what they would do.
But, God is omniscient- he KNOWS what they will do even before they do it.
THUS NO NEED FOR A TEST.

When a teacher gives a student a test, it is so the teacher can find out what the student learned.

If the teacher is omniscient, they can assign grades without ever giving the students tests!

AGAIN- read what I wrote thoroughly.
Try and grasp the concept as a whole.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/20/2012 2:06:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 11:12:46 PM, Utopian wrote:
Christianity is based on the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred as salvation for mankind, to counter the stigma of the Original Sin of Eve.

Let's start from the top of this. You left out HIS life, His sinless life as a human. Why? This is very important. HIS overcoming is most important to Christianity. Matt.1;21 Making an end to sin that's what HE came for. The 1st assumption is that Christianity is based on only death and resurrection of JESUS. HE must make a way for man to overcome. Rev.3

Yet, Eve did not do anything God did not want her to do.

GOD gave her free will to choose whom she would serve. GOD did not want her to sin, not HIS will that any should perish.
Let's stop there and see where we want to go.

So how is the Original sin a "Sin"?


Some say God created Adam and Eve with free will, and commanded them to not eat from the tree of Knowledge. Since they did eat from the tree, they broke God's command, thus sinned.

Some say it was all done to "test" Adam and Eve, but how can an all-knowing being "test" anything? "Testing" implies not knowing something, so the test gathers information.

And what is "free will" anyway?

Free Will is our ability to make decisions.

What is the basis for our decisions? The information at hand, combined with our own internal nature and nurture. Our personalities and our experiences shape how we decide what to do in any given situation.

But Adam and Eve were not babies who grew up, shaped by life experiences. They were designed as adults, and placed in Eden, a world designed for them.

DESIGNED.

That means every single aspect of their personalities were created by God. How loyal they are, how obedient they are, how gullible they are, how curious they are- shaped by God.

If God made them a little more loyal and obedient, and a little less curious and gullible, they would not have done as the snake said.

Heck, if he made the snake a little less convincing it would not have happened.

And God knew this ahead of time- even before he said "Let their be light" he KNEW everything that would happen, and he did not do a thing differently.

Thus, not only did Adam and Eve not have free will, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything but exactly what they did.


Thus, no Sin.

Thus, no need for Salvation.

Thus, no need for Christianity.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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3/20/2012 9:41:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/19/2012 11:12:46 PM, Utopian wrote:
Christianity is based on the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred as salvation for mankind, to counter the stigma of the Original Sin of Eve.

Yet, Eve did not do anything God did not want her to do.

I don't think I am understanding you here. She sinned, something God did not want her to do.

So how is the Original sin a "Sin"?

Some say God created Adam and Eve with free will, and commanded them to not eat from the tree of Knowledge. Since they did eat from the tree, they broke God's command, thus sinned.

Some say it was all done to "test" Adam and Eve, but how can an all-knowing being "test" anything? "Testing" implies not knowing something, so the test gathers information.

I do not know anyone who believes this with the exception of people who admittedly deny the onmiscience of God (forgot the denominations name). However, a lot of people also fail to see how a test can result in a certain determined outcome. God will use "tests" so that we can be shaaped in a way He is already aware of and knew before we took the test. The test would not be a means of gaining so unknown knowledge but instead producing the known and desired result.

And what is "free will" anyway?

Few different definitions. I hold to the compatibilst view of free will.

Free Will is our ability to make decisions.

What is the basis for our decisions? The information at hand, combined with our own internal nature and nurture. Our personalities and our experiences shape how we decide what to do in any given situation.

But Adam and Eve were not babies who grew up, shaped by life experiences. They were designed as adults, and placed in Eden, a world designed for them.

DESIGNED.

Yes

That means every single aspect of their personalities were created by God. How loyal they are, how obedient they are, how gullible they are, how curious they are- shaped by God.

yup

If God made them a little more loyal and obedient, and a little less curious and gullible, they would not have done as the snake said.

yup

Heck, if he made the snake a little less convincing it would not have happened.

yup

And God knew this ahead of time- even before he said "Let their be light" he KNEW everything that would happen, and he did not do a thing differently.

Thus, not only did Adam and Eve not have free will, it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything but exactly what they did.

Depends, I see free will as having the ability to do what one desires and is capable of. Others view free will as some metaphysical ability to choose. What you describe would apply to the former and not the latter.

Thus, no Sin.

How is there no sin? Whether they could avoid it or not they still broke Gods commands.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.
inferno
Posts: 10,638
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3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/20/2012 2:13:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.

Let's refrain from name calling.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/20/2012 2:24:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.

We share a common ancestor with the apes, Homo Sapiens are actually part of the great ape family.

Regardless, the only one who deserves to be called a moron is the person who believes that some magical supernatural being snapped his fingers and created two humans in some garden...Get me to acid, and hit me over the head with a baseball bat, then maybe I'll believe something that outrages.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 2:24:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.

We share a common ancestor with the apes, Homo Sapiens are actually part of the great ape family.

Regardless, the only one who deserves to be called a moron is the person who believes that some magical supernatural being snapped his fingers and created two humans in some garden...Get me to acid, and hit me over the head with a baseball bat, then maybe I'll believe something that outrages.

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/21/2012 1:17:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:24:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.

We share a common ancestor with the apes, Homo Sapiens are actually part of the great ape family.

Regardless, the only one who deserves to be called a moron is the person who believes that some magical supernatural being snapped his fingers and created two humans in some garden...Get me to acid, and hit me over the head with a baseball bat, then maybe I'll believe something that outrages.

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

Christians don't look at the Garden and the Fall as a metaphor though, they actually believe God snapped his fingers and out popped two white people in a forest who ate an apple because they were tempted by a talking serpant..
If The Bible is just a metaphor then I could get down with that, but people actually believe the nonsense in it..
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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3/21/2012 1:37:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Original Sin is a feature of our design. All events are known by God, he knew it all before hand and set into motion the events that would lead to the fall of mankind.

It is a sin because it was an abominable action by a human. Adam and Eve are no different to us in that respects.

At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

No story or clause in the Torah (Books by Moses) is metaphorical or anecdotal.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/21/2012 8:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 1:17:24 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:24:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/20/2012 2:11:14 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/20/2012 1:38:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The story of Adam and Eve is obviously false. Man wasn't created ex nihilo, we evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes.

We could talk about the story like a fiction story for the sake of discussion, however talking about Adam and Eve like actual history is rather foolish.

False. We did not come from apes you moron.

We share a common ancestor with the apes, Homo Sapiens are actually part of the great ape family.

Regardless, the only one who deserves to be called a moron is the person who believes that some magical supernatural being snapped his fingers and created two humans in some garden...Get me to acid, and hit me over the head with a baseball bat, then maybe I'll believe something that outrages.

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

Christians don't look at the Garden and the Fall as a metaphor though, they actually believe God snapped his fingers and out popped two white people in a forest who ate an apple because they were tempted by a talking serpant..
If The Bible is just a metaphor then I could get down with that, but people actually believe the nonsense in it..

Yes well I'm a Christian and I don't believe it literally. That makes your generalization of Christians false.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/21/2012 8:31:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 1:37:56 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Original Sin is a feature of our design. All events are known by God, he knew it all before hand and set into motion the events that would lead to the fall of mankind.

It is a sin because it was an abominable action by a human. Adam and Eve are no different to us in that respects.

At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

No story or clause in the Torah (Books by Moses) is metaphorical or anecdotal.

It was written for a simpler time for a simpler people.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 8:38:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 1:37:56 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Original Sin is a feature of our design. All events are known by God, he knew it all before hand and set into motion the events that would lead to the fall of mankind.

It is a sin because it was an abominable action by a human. Adam and Eve are no different to us in that respects.

At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

No story or clause in the Torah (Books by Moses) is metaphorical or anecdotal.

"It is a sin because it was an abominable action by a human. Adam and Eve are no different to us in that respects."

Eating an apple is an abominable action? It seems like you believe the creator of the universe is power tripping something fierce.
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/23/2012 12:58:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/21/2012 1:37:56 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Original Sin is a feature of our design.
If you want anyone to agree to whatever you understand to mean "original sin" you need to explain please. That was GODs' "will" that man should die ?

All events are known by God, he knew it all before hand and set into motion the events that would lead to the fall of mankind.
: That can be somewhat misleading, follow up

It is a sin because it was an abominable action by a human. Adam and Eve are no different to us in that respects.
You've left to much to the imagination , why was it a sin, as someone else said how can eating a piece of fruit be an " abominable action "?

At 3/20/2012 4:08:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:

Why can't the Garden and the Creation/Fall of Man be taken as a metaphor? Why must everything be so incompatible?

No story or clause in the Torah (Books by Moses) is metaphorical or anecdotal.