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Arguments for God being good

Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/22/2012 5:01:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

What?

Without morality, you couldnt even ask that question, why is it GOOD.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:07:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

I could just say that God created immorality is the epitome of immorality meaning he is evil in terms of morality.

Also an evil God would want people to think he is good, so identifying himself as good still doesn't mean he is good.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/22/2012 5:09:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:01:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

What?

Without morality, you couldnt even ask that question, why is it GOOD.

Yes, you can. I can claim that something is good because it gives me pleasure even if it is morally condemnable. Jeffery Domner would have said that cannibalism was good even though it was a morally reprehensible act. Conceptions of good are subjective.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:10:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:07:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

I could just say that God created immorality is the epitome of immorality meaning he is evil in terms of morality.

Also an evil God would want people to think he is good, so identifying himself as good still doesn't mean he is good.

But in creating morality he determines morality, therefore if he identifies himself as "good" he is good in terms of morality.

Your evidence is all based around morality existing without an omnipotent God present to determine it. If the omnipotent God creates morality, he determines it; if he identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is good in terms of morality.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:14:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:10:13 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:07:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

I could just say that God created immorality is the epitome of immorality meaning he is evil in terms of morality.

Also an evil God would want people to think he is good, so identifying himself as good still doesn't mean he is good.

But in creating morality he determines morality, therefore if he identifies himself as "good" he is good in terms of morality.

Your evidence is all based around morality existing without an omnipotent God present to determine it. If the omnipotent God creates morality, he determines it; if he identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is good in terms of morality.

I could just sat that in creating immorality he determines immorality, therefore he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying. What I'm saying makes sense, because an immoral God would want people to think he was moral.

If the omnipotent God creates immorality, he determines it. If he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying, and is lying himself. Since he would be the epitome of immortality, he is evil in terms of morality.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/22/2012 5:15:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:09:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

What?

Without morality, you couldnt even ask that question, why is it GOOD.

Yes, you can. I can claim that something is good because it gives me pleasure even if it is morally condemnable. Jeffery Domner would have said that cannibalism was good even though it was a morally reprehensible act. Conceptions of good are subjective.

I'm not referencing a specific morality. I'm simply saying that in order to say somethinh is good, you have to be working within some framework of morality whether relative or objective.

.
.
.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:16:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:14:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:10:13 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:07:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

I could just say that God created immorality is the epitome of immorality meaning he is evil in terms of morality.

Also an evil God would want people to think he is good, so identifying himself as good still doesn't mean he is good.

But in creating morality he determines morality, therefore if he identifies himself as "good" he is good in terms of morality.

Your evidence is all based around morality existing without an omnipotent God present to determine it. If the omnipotent God creates morality, he determines it; if he identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is good in terms of morality.

I could just sat that in creating immorality he determines immorality, therefore he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying. What I'm saying makes sense, because an immoral God would want people to think he was moral.

If the omnipotent God creates immorality, he determines it. If he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying, and is lying himself. Since he would be the epitome of immortality, he is evil in terms of morality.

An omnipotent God who determines morality is good in terms of morality if he says he is good in terms of morality, because, once again, he is the one who determines it.

If the omnipotent God who created morality identifies himself as the epitome of morality and lies, then lying is moral, because he has identified himself as moral and demonstrated that lying is moral.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:20:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:16:32 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:14:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:10:13 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:07:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

I could just say that God created immorality is the epitome of immorality meaning he is evil in terms of morality.

Also an evil God would want people to think he is good, so identifying himself as good still doesn't mean he is good.

But in creating morality he determines morality, therefore if he identifies himself as "good" he is good in terms of morality.

Your evidence is all based around morality existing without an omnipotent God present to determine it. If the omnipotent God creates morality, he determines it; if he identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is good in terms of morality.

I could just sat that in creating immorality he determines immorality, therefore he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying. What I'm saying makes sense, because an immoral God would want people to think he was moral.

If the omnipotent God creates immorality, he determines it. If he identifies himself as "good" because he created immoral actions like lying, and is lying himself. Since he would be the epitome of immortality, he is evil in terms of morality.

An omnipotent God who determines morality is good in terms of morality if he says he is good in terms of morality, because, once again, he is the one who determines it.

If the omnipotent God who created morality identifies himself as the epitome of morality and lies, then lying is moral, because he has identified himself as moral and demonstrated that lying is moral.

I can just say, an omnipotent God who determines immorality may be evil in terms of morality if he says he is "good" in terms of morality, because, once again he determines immorality (like lying) and an evil God would lie an identify himself as "good", because it's the evil God who determines immorality.

If the omnipotent evil God who created immorality (like lies) identifies him as "good", then he could be lying.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:21:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

"If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral."

But he also determines immorality, which you seem to ignore. So your arguments don't hold up.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:23:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

You are also breaking the rules of the thread, I'm ignoring scripture arguments, therefore in the context of this thread, you have no basis for saying God identified himself as good.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:30:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:23:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

You are also breaking the rules of the thread, I'm ignoring scripture arguments, therefore in the context of this thread, you have no basis for saying God identified himself as good.

I have not quoted scripture. As general knowledge, the omnipotent God of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfect in terms of morality.

If the omnipotent God DETERMINES morality, and IDENTIFIES himself as moral, then he is GOOD. Lying is moral if the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies about being perfectly moral (paradoxes are irrelevant in omnipotence).
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:32:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:21:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

"If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral."

But he also determines immorality, which you seem to ignore. So your arguments don't hold up.

Immorality is just the opposite of morality, which is also determined by the God. If the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies, lying is moral and not lying is immoral. You are arguing from constants, I am arguing from variables.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:39:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:30:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:23:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

You are also breaking the rules of the thread, I'm ignoring scripture arguments, therefore in the context of this thread, you have no basis for saying God identified himself as good.

I have not quoted scripture. As general knowledge, the omnipotent God of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfect in terms of morality.

If the omnipotent God DETERMINES morality, and IDENTIFIES himself as moral, then he is GOOD. Lying is moral if the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies about being perfectly moral (paradoxes are irrelevant in omnipotence).

What evidence can you provide that God identifies himself as good without using scripture?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:41:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:32:44 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:21:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

"If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral."

But he also determines immorality, which you seem to ignore. So your arguments don't hold up.

Immorality is just the opposite of morality, which is also determined by the God. If the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies, lying is moral and not lying is immoral. You are arguing from constants, I am arguing from variables.

I can just say that morality is just the opposite of immorality, which is also determined by God. Can you prove that God identified himself as good without using scripture?

Even if you could, God could be lying because he created immorality. Therefore, God could be evil
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:42:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:39:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:30:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:23:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

You are also breaking the rules of the thread, I'm ignoring scripture arguments, therefore in the context of this thread, you have no basis for saying God identified himself as good.

I have not quoted scripture. As general knowledge, the omnipotent God of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfect in terms of morality.

If the omnipotent God DETERMINES morality, and IDENTIFIES himself as moral, then he is GOOD. Lying is moral if the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies about being perfectly moral (paradoxes are irrelevant in omnipotence).

What evidence can you provide that God identifies himself as good without using scripture?

Oh, I would definitely have to quote scripture to show that. I don't believe I have to, however, because it is general knowledge that the omnipotent deity of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfectly moral.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

You are breaking the rules of the thread, what evidence do you have that God identified himself with morality besides scripture? Also, how do you know he is not lying since he created immorality?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 5:44:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:42:26 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:39:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:30:01 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:23:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:17:59 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:15:25 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:12:03 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:09:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:04:31 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:01:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

An omnipotent also creates immorality.

Yes, but that's completely irrelevant. A deity who creates morality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality is good, ergo just look at the opposite to find immorality, or "bad."

Yes but that's completely irrelevant. I could just say a deity who creates immorality and identifies himself as "good" in terms of morality must be lying.

First of all, please stop mocking me.

Secondly, what you say has no meaning because you are not the creator of morality; you are not an authority on what is "good" and "bad" in terms of morality. However, the omnipotent God who created it is an authority. Therefore, if he determines it and identifies himself as moral, he is good in terms of morality.

But if he invented immorality (like lying) and identifies himself as good, then how do you know he is not lying?

Once again, you're operating under the assumption that God is defined in terms of morality, and lying is inherently immoral. If God lies, lying is moral and therefore good, because the omnipotent God determines morality and identifies himself as moral.

You are also breaking the rules of the thread, I'm ignoring scripture arguments, therefore in the context of this thread, you have no basis for saying God identified himself as good.

I have not quoted scripture. As general knowledge, the omnipotent God of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfect in terms of morality.

If the omnipotent God DETERMINES morality, and IDENTIFIES himself as moral, then he is GOOD. Lying is moral if the omnipotent God determines morality, identifies himself as moral, and lies about being perfectly moral (paradoxes are irrelevant in omnipotence).

What evidence can you provide that God identifies himself as good without using scripture?

Oh, I would definitely have to quote scripture to show that. I don't believe I have to, however, because it is general knowledge that the omnipotent deity of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfectly moral.

An evil God would lie to people and identify himself as good, so even the fact that scripture says he's good doesn't prove he is good.

Also, if you can't provide evidence that God identifies himself as good without using scripture, then you are breaking the rules of the thread and your arguments hold no weight.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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3/22/2012 5:49:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 5:42:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:05:52 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 5:02:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:56:54 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:47:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:46:14 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

An ominpotent God creates morality.

Why is morality good?

I am merely saying that since the omnipotent God creates morality, the omnipotent God effectively determines morality.

Well if an omnipotent God creates immorality, the omnipotent God effectively determines immorality.

So, can you explain why God is more likely good than evil? Nobody on this site has succeeded yet..

Name an omnipotent God who has identified himself within a religion to be the epitome of immorality, and you will have evidence.

Otherwise, if an omnipotent God creates morality and identifies himself as the epitome of morality, he is "good" in terms of morality.

You are breaking the rules of the thread, what evidence do you have that God identified himself with morality besides scripture? Also, how do you know he is not lying since he created immorality?

It is common knowledge that the omnipotent God of any major monotheistic religion identifies himself as perfectly moral. If I quoted scripture, it would be to prove a point that inherently requires scripture, and not a basis for the argument as a whole.

You are completely misunderstanding everything I am saying. If God creates morality, determines morality, and identifies himself as moral, then he is perfectly moral. The immotality is relative to his determined moral state. The key argument here is that he DETERMINES it, making any argument from immorality false. If he determines it and identifies himself as moral, then he is moral.

How do we know? What we know or understand is irrelevant.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.