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Arguments for God being good and not evil

Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?
joneszj
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3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.
joneszj
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3/22/2012 3:07:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.

True. God does evil things to evil people. yet God does not sin.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

or for a better translation

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.
joneszj
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3/22/2012 3:07:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:07:10 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.

True. God does evil things to evil people. yet God does not sin.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

or for a better translation

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

My bad, KJV, and ESV
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:10:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:07:10 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.

True. God does evil things to evil people. yet God does not sin.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

or for a better translation

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

So the first born child of every Egyptian was evil? Come on, there are countless stories of God murdering people who did nothing wrong. Also, all that text did was say "I create good, and evil".

Regardless, I already said this discussion cuts the bible out. Why is God more likely good than evil?
unitedandy
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3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.
joneszj
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3/22/2012 3:24:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:10:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:07:10 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.

True. God does evil things to evil people. yet God does not sin.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

or for a better translation

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

So the first born child of every Egyptian was evil?

yes

Come on, there are countless stories of God murdering people who did nothing wrong.

not really

Also, all that text did was say "I create good, and evil".

it was used to support a point

Regardless, I already said this discussion cuts the bible out. Why is God more likely good than evil?

Your correct, no scripture! I gave my statement earlier:

"I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards."

Then you said:

"Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil."

I basically agreed with you but wanted to stress the difference of the term 'evil' and how it is used in certain contexts. The verses were used to illustrate HOW I was using the term.
joneszj
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3/22/2012 3:26:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:01:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:35:22 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:30:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Assuming that I don't believe holy scriptures and just accept logical arguments, how can the theist show that he is more likely good than evil?

I think it would be near impossible. The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others. This would be concluded by examining the life conditions of one life compared to another. But then again, without the scriptures how could you determine what is good? Perhaps the theif who steals and murders for self gain is the one God is being good towards.

"The only argument one could offer I suppose is that God is good to some and with different proportions to others"

Another argument one could offer I suppose is that God is evil to some and with different to others. Also if we take the scriptures at face value, God killed mass amounts of people and is evil by his own standards. Lets not use the scriptures, and assume we all are smart enough to know the difference between good and evil.

You said no scriptures!!!
16kadams
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3/22/2012 3:28:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Neither, he doesn't exist.

^ my Personal answer
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:37:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.

All you did was say what an argument argues for, you never presented any argument. Also, you just asserted it wouldn't be near as plausible.

Please present an argument, don't just tell me there are arguments out there..
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:38:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:28:33 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Neither, he doesn't exist.

^ my Personal answer

Obviously this is the most logical standpoint, I'm just trying to see what the theists think.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:41:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.

The Moral Argument is below:

P1: Some aspect of Morality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Moral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives

All I have to do is change one word, and it makes as much sense:

P1: Some aspect of Immorality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Immoral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives

I'm asking theists, what makes a good/ moral God more plausible than an evil/ immoral God?

So far, I haven't gotten one answer..
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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3/22/2012 3:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:37:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.

All you did was say what an argument argues for, you never presented any argument. Also, you just asserted it wouldn't be near as plausible.

Please present an argument, don't just tell me there are arguments out there..

It's a bit pedantic, but okay:

P1 It is possible for God to exist
P2 If it is possible for God to exist, then He exists
C :., God exists

Obviously, I don't agree with the ontological argument, but it would point to a supremely benevolent God. Given that you're an atheist, you're either looking for the kind of argument which would justify a good God (which I have given), or you want me to try and justify it, which seems a topic for a debate, rather than the forums.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 3:55:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:50:56 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:37:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.

All you did was say what an argument argues for, you never presented any argument. Also, you just asserted it wouldn't be near as plausible.

Please present an argument, don't just tell me there are arguments out there..

It's a bit pedantic, but okay:

P1 It is possible for God to exist
P2 If it is possible for God to exist, then He exists
C :., God exists

Obviously, I don't agree with the ontological argument, but it would point to a supremely benevolent God. Given that you're an atheist, you're either looking for the kind of argument which would justify a good God (which I have given), or you want me to try and justify it, which seems a topic for a debate, rather than the forums.

How would the ontological argument point to a benevolent God? You just asserted it with no reasoning.

Also, I'm not looking for justification for a good God, I'm looking for justification of a good God that make more sense than arguments for an evil God. There is no argument for a good God which can't have "good" switched with "evil", I'm looking for a scale tipper.
unitedandy
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3/22/2012 3:58:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:41:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.


The Moral Argument is below:

P1: Some aspect of Morality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Moral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives


All I have to do is change one word, and it makes as much sense:

P1: Some aspect of Immorality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Immoral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives

I'm asking theists, what makes a good/ moral God more plausible than an evil/ immoral God?

So far, I haven't gotten one answer..

The problem here is that there is no such thing as "immoral realism". If something is immoral, then moral realism is necessarily true! In fact, Bill Craig responds to the problem of evil in this way:

P1 If God exists, objective moral values do not exist
P2 Objective moral values do exist (e.g. some things are immoral)
C God exists

Again, I think the argument fails, and that this response, in the context it is usually given, sucks. But claiming that there can be immoral values without moral ones is absurd.

What you seem to be suggesting is something along the lines of the evil God challenge, which I agree is a pretty neat tool to use, but you're using it wrongly.
unitedandy
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3/22/2012 4:01:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:50:56 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:37:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.

All you did was say what an argument argues for, you never presented any argument. Also, you just asserted it wouldn't be near as plausible.

Please present an argument, don't just tell me there are arguments out there..

It's a bit pedantic, but okay:

P1 It is possible for God to exist
P2 If it is possible for God to exist, then He exists
C :., God exists

Obviously, I don't agree with the ontological argument, but it would point to a supremely benevolent God. Given that you're an atheist, you're either looking for the kind of argument which would justify a good God (which I have given), or you want me to try and justify it, which seems a topic for a debate, rather than the forums.

Because the God the argument demands is maximally excellent, i.e. omnipotent, omniscient and wholly benevolent.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 4:06:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 3:58:40 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:41:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:19:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 3/22/2012 3:02:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 2:45:00 PM, unitedandy wrote:
The ontological argument and the moral argument are typically used.

Don't know any ontological arguments regarding good or evil, also I could easily use an "Immoral" argument based on the same line of reasoning. I'm looking for arguments for why god is more likely good than evil.

Every ontological argument argues for a "maximally excellent" being, i.e. a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good. As for the moral argument, I don't know how one would argue for an immoral being, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as plausible as a typical moral argument.


The Moral Argument is below:

P1: Some aspect of Morality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Moral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives


All I have to do is change one word, and it makes as much sense:

P1: Some aspect of Immorality (e.g., its objective force) is observed. (Immoral realism)
P2: Existence of God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
P3: Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives

I'm asking theists, what makes a good/ moral God more plausible than an evil/ immoral God?

So far, I haven't gotten one answer..

The problem here is that there is no such thing as "immoral realism". If something is immoral, then moral realism is necessarily true! In fact, Bill Craig responds to the problem of evil in this way:

P1 If God exists, objective moral values do not exist
P2 Objective moral values do exist (e.g. some things are immoral)
C God exists

Again, I think the argument fails, and that this response, in the context it is usually given, sucks. But claiming that there can be immoral values without moral ones is absurd.

What you seem to be suggesting is something along the lines of the evil God challenge, which I agree is a pretty neat tool to use, but you're using it wrongly.

"If something is immoral, then moral realism is necessarily true!"

I told you, I'm asking for something you can't switch:

I could just say that if something is moral, then immoral realism is necessarily true!

Also I think you botched Craig's argument, it's "If God exists, objective morals exist". I'm going to repeat Craig's argument, and make a little switch, it will make just as much sense:

P1 If God exists, objective Immmoral sets of actions do exist
P2 Objective Immoral sets of actions do exist (e.g. some things are moral)
C God exists

You can switch moral with immoral, good with evil and it works both ways. You haven't provided a scale tipper.

"But claiming that there can be immoral values without moral ones is absurd."

Claiming there could be moral values without Immoral sets of actions are equally absurd. Where is the scale tipper?

"What you seem to be suggesting is something along the lines of the evil God challenge, which I agree is a pretty neat tool to use, but you're using it wrongly."

How am I not using it correctly? Regardless, can you provide an argument I can't pull a switcheroo on? A scale tipper if you will?
phantom
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3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong becuase they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2012 4:11:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong becuase they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

It has nothing to do with God's existence...I never said it did, so I don't follow..
royalpaladin
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3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong becuase they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.
phantom
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3/22/2012 4:14:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:11:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong becuase they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

It has nothing to do with God's existence...I never said it did, so I don't follow..

I wasn't trying to refute you. Sorry for the confusion.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/22/2012 4:16:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong because they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

It is only logical to assume an evil God could want humans to believe he was benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.

Worship isn't relevant. We're taking about existence.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 4:18:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:16:37 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong because they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

It is only logical to assume an evil God could want humans to believe he was benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.

Worship isn't relevant. We're taking about existence.

When was the thread about existence?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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3/22/2012 4:20:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:18:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:16:37 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong because they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

It is only logical to assume an evil God could want humans to believe he was benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.

Worship isn't relevant. We're taking about existence.

When was the thread about existence?

I'm talking about existence. Royalpaladin brings up worship which is entirely irrelevant to my post.

I apologize if you feel I'm derailing your thread.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/22/2012 4:24:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:20:56 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:18:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:16:37 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong because they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

It is only logical to assume an evil God could want humans to believe he was benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.

Worship isn't relevant. We're taking about existence.

When was the thread about existence?

I'm talking about existence. Royalpaladin brings up worship which is entirely irrelevant to my post.

The Bible defines God as benevolent. If God is not benevolent, then the Christian conception of God cannot exist.
I apologize if you feel I'm derailing your thread.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2012 4:24:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/22/2012 4:20:56 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:18:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:16:37 PM, phantom wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:12:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/22/2012 4:07:05 PM, phantom wrote:
Actually, I often wander why atheists so often think God is proved wrong because they think He would have to be evil. Why again can an evil God not exist?

The Bible defines God as benevolent.

It is only logical to assume an evil God could want humans to believe he was benevolent.

If God is evil, then we should not worship him. If God does not exist, we should not worship him. The argument functionally establishes a double bind.

Worship isn't relevant. We're taking about existence.

When was the thread about existence?

I'm talking about existence. Royalpaladin brings up worship which is entirely irrelevant to my post.

I apologize if you feel I'm derailing your thread.

I just believe that every argument for why god is good could be switched for why God is evil. Some people say he allows evil to appreciate good, well, why could God allow good so people can appreciate evil? Some people say that their good God doesn't punish the bad people in this life, but does it in the afterlife. I say, maybe an evil God doesn't punish good people in this life, but does in the afterlife.

An evil God makes just as much sense as a good one, I'm looking for an argument that could tip the scales in the theist's favor.