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Evidence of God

crossfade102495
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3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
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3/25/2012 12:47:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

What exactly is your resolution? That since there is no evidence of God, God does not exist? If so then I this would be an easy win since all I have to do is present the appeal to ignorance argument. If your resolution is just that there isn't any evidence that God exist, then you could also say there is no evidence that God does not exist. What exactly do you mean by evidence?
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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3/25/2012 12:55:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

1. I think a big piece of evidence is how intelligent humans are. We are by far more intelligent then any animal and also have created a language system.

2. Another piece of evidence is the complexity of the world and humans. How could that be happenstance? Do you see anything like this forming around us just by chance?

3. The drive to do good in humans.

4. Miracles - Don't think millions of people have lied.

5. The natural inclination to believe in something.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/25/2012 2:26:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 12:55:59 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

1. I think a big piece of evidence is how intelligent humans are. We are by far more intelligent then any animal and also have created a language system.

2. Another piece of evidence is the complexity of the world and humans. How could that be happenstance? Do you see anything like this forming around us just by chance?

3. The drive to do good in humans.

4. Miracles - Don't think millions of people have lied.

5. The natural inclination to believe in something.

1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/25/2012 6:48:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

I'm inclined to agree with you, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

However, the things people are offering as evidence of God's existence in the millions is the ridiculous part... It all always boils down to faith, which is such a crock. Religious is just a great big circle jerk of ever-lasting big-headedness in my not so humble opinion. Who can put faith in anything except the principles of science, which has been shown time and motherfvcking time again to work?

I just don't understand it. I accept the limitations of man. I've said this before; all we are are clever monkeys who like to fvck. We insignificant in the Universe, but capable of being significant here on Earth. That's it. Actually, on second thought, maybe we are capable of being significant in the Universe, but only Science can take us in that direction.

We're completely messed up. The good is outweighed by the evil so much that it is beyond reason that any caring God would allow people to suffer as they do. From first-world to third-world, people are suffering when they really don't need to.

If a person comes out and is destined for evil, let them be struck down. God shouldn't forgive. If this person is ultimately going to cause far more suffering than good, they shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Let no man, woman or child go without food and clean water. This is just obvious. Give man the resources it needs to flourish. It's 2012 and we're running out of sh!t and we've bearing scratched the surface of space... we're too busy worrying about who has the biggest d!ck.
Encourage good to prosper. Karma is great in theory, but it's clearly another fairy tale. Good stuff happens to people who do bad things. Bad stuff happens to good people. Perhaps if God sprinkled some magic dust over Earth, he could fix everything. God is clearly either impotent or malevolent.

How about making those objective rules for a group of mammals you supposedly care about. Make food appear on the table, god damn it!

If there is a God, I would like to thank him for creating marijuana. That was a good one!
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tyler90az
Posts: 971
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3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.

3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?

4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.

5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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3/25/2012 9:38:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 6:48:51 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

I'm inclined to agree with you, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

However, the things people are offering as evidence of God's existence in the millions is the ridiculous part... It all always boils down to faith, which is such a crock. Religious is just a great big circle jerk of ever-lasting big-headedness in my not so humble opinion. Who can put faith in anything except the principles of science, which has been shown time and motherfvcking time again to work?

How many times has science changed? There is always a new theory coming out disproving the one that was held before. How can you have faith in something that is constantly changing?

I just don't understand it. I accept the limitations of man. I've said this before; all we are are clever monkeys who like to fvck. We insignificant in the Universe, but capable of being significant here on Earth. That's it. Actually, on second thought, maybe we are capable of being significant in the Universe, but only Science can take us in that direction.

The intelligence gap between us and monkeys is tremendous. You see this gap in no other animal family.


We're completely messed up. The good is outweighed by the evil so much that it is beyond reason that any caring God would allow people to suffer as they do. From first-world to third-world, people are suffering when they really don't need to.

It is about having the free-will to do what we want. If God created us to be Robots, why would he even put us on earth?

If a person comes out and is destined for evil, let them be struck down. God shouldn't forgive. If this person is ultimately going to cause far more suffering than good, they shouldn't be allowed to exist.

That does not sound like what a father would do. A father who loves his son or daughter would always take him back.

Let no man, woman or child go without food and clean water. This is just obvious. Give man the resources it needs to flourish. It's 2012 and we're running out of sh!t and we've bearing scratched the surface of space... we're too busy worrying about who has the biggest d!ck.

The earth does have everything all human kind needs to flourish. However, we have not yet learned how to share. God can not force everyone to share that would kill free agency.

Encourage good to prosper. Karma is great in theory, but it's clearly another fairy tale. Good stuff happens to people who do bad things. Bad stuff happens to good people. Perhaps if God sprinkled some magic dust over Earth, he could fix everything. God is clearly either impotent or malevolent.

How about making those objective rules for a group of mammals you supposedly care about. Make food appear on the table, god damn it!

If there is a God, I would like to thank him for creating marijuana. That was a good one!
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 9:45:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

Once more, how does us having more intelligence than other animals equal a creator? You asserted this point without any line of reasoning.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion held by theists. You still neglect the fact that there are non-random, non-intelligent forces that exist.


3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?

Morals could come from biological responses such as empathy. Also, you should back up your claim that there is "definite" morality. This is not true, people argue all the time about moral issues because there is no clear sign a lot of the time.


4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.

Common sense would tell you that extra-ordinary claims regarding our ultimate view of reality should not be accepted based on testimony alone. Also, I'm not saying these people are consciously lying just that they are misinterpreting their experience. So, do you believe in alien abductions because millions of people reported them?


5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

Because human's are smarter, therefore, have deeper imaginations. Imagination doesn't = Reality I'm afraid.

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol

None of what you stated even gives the slight indication that a God exists, you are going to have to do better.
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 9:50:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:45:40 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

Once more, how does us having more intelligence than other animals equal a creator? You asserted this point without any line of reasoning.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion held by theists. You still neglect the fact that there are non-random, non-intelligent forces that exist.


3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?

Morals could come from biological responses such as empathy. Also, you should back up your claim that there is "definite" morality. This is not true, people argue all the time about moral issues because there is no clear sign a lot of the time.


4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.

Common sense would tell you that extra-ordinary claims regarding our ultimate view of reality should not be accepted based on testimony alone. Also, I'm not saying these people are consciously lying just that they are misinterpreting their experience. So, do you believe in alien abductions because millions of people reported them?


5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

Because human's are smarter, therefore, have deeper imaginations. Imagination doesn't = Reality I'm afraid.

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol

None of what you stated even gives the slight indication that a God exists, you are going to have to do better.

They're not absolute proof, more just things to think about. Just like you could list off a bunch of things to think about regarding not believing. The only real and lasting way to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true is to read The Book of Mormon and pray about it.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/25/2012 10:20:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:50:26 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 3/25/2012 9:45:40 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

Once more, how does us having more intelligence than other animals equal a creator? You asserted this point without any line of reasoning.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion held by theists. You still neglect the fact that there are non-random, non-intelligent forces that exist.


3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?

Morals could come from biological responses such as empathy. Also, you should back up your claim that there is "definite" morality. This is not true, people argue all the time about moral issues because there is no clear sign a lot of the time.


4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.

Common sense would tell you that extra-ordinary claims regarding our ultimate view of reality should not be accepted based on testimony alone. Also, I'm not saying these people are consciously lying just that they are misinterpreting their experience. So, do you believe in alien abductions because millions of people reported them?


5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

Because human's are smarter, therefore, have deeper imaginations. Imagination doesn't = Reality I'm afraid.

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol

None of what you stated even gives the slight indication that a God exists, you are going to have to do better.

They're not absolute proof, more just things to think about. Just like you could list off a bunch of things to think about regarding not believing. The only real and lasting way to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true is to read The Book of Mormon and pray about it.

Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!
sadolite
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3/25/2012 10:38:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

If your perception that the universe was created from fluke chaos then of course there is no evidence.

If your perception is to look at all the complex life forms on this planet. To look at the astronomical odds against a planet like earth being in the right place at the right time with every single factor for life being absolutely perfect. Then those people tend to believe in a creator.

Your perception is that everything is fluke chaos, but at the same time you probly look to people who try to explain the universe using order and math. So completely contradictory if you ask me. There is no mathamatical equation there is no order there are no rules, it's chaos.
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tyler90az
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3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 10:49:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:38:43 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

If your perception that the universe was created from fluke chaos then of course there is no evidence.

If your perception is to look at all the complex life forms on this planet. To look at the astronomical odds against a planet like earth being in the right place at the right time with every single factor for life being absolutely perfect. Then those people tend to believe in a creator.

Your perception is that everything is fluke chaos, but at the same time you probly look to people who try to explain the universe using order and math. So completely contradictory if you ask me. There is no mathamatical equation there is no order there are no rules, it's chaos.

You are making the assumption that there are only two options:

1. Intelligence

or

2. 100% random chaos

This is where your argument fails. Gravity isn't randomly chaotic for example, it has enough order to form spherical planets and spiral galaxies (it won't do completely random things we aren't familiar with) yet it is non sentient and not intelligent. Chemical reactions will cause the patterns we see in snow flakes, these patterns seem to repeat and it's not like the snow flakes all look so drastically different, you can see order in them.

Basically, most of the order and complexity we see originates from sources which show 0 signs of sentience or sentience.

Just because sentient beings can create mechanisms, doesn't mean that all mechanisms are due to sentient being(s).

This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith).
Stephen_Hawkins
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3/25/2012 10:50:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

This makes me assume, therefore, that monkeys were not created, because they are not intelligent, which just makes things more complicated, not less.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.



3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?

Humans? You know, like where most stuff comes from?

4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.


No, common sense tells us that the volume of people doesn't effect likelihood of a single event taking place. If I flip an unbias coin ten times, and it comes up heads ten times, the chance of it coming up heads is... 50%. No matter how many times I flipped it beforehand. Furthermore, that logic can justify the idea of a square circle existing if enough people have seen it. Finally, more people have seen the hindu milk miracle than any other, therefore Ganesh and Shiva are the true gods. Oh wait...

5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol

I have the natural inclination to see faces where there aren't any. That's how the brain works. I have a natural inclination to save the many by killing the few, when other have the natural inclination to not be involved in killing anyone and letting the many die. Natural inclinations mean nothing. Also, some people have the natural inclination to rape, or pillage, or kill. Small problems emerge.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 10:53:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM, tyler90az wrote:
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.

Something that always changes, means it's always willing to improve. Any article which is proof read and changed and improved by peers for example, will contain far less errors than someone who just comes out with an article and says "You can't touch this!", because someone could just be like "You should let me touch it, you spelled this word wrong for one...".

I don't trust anything that isn't willing to change, that means there not willing to improve, that means it is filled with errors like The Bible.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 10:56:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM, tyler90az wrote:
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.

P.S. Science is not a deity, so I can't worship it.

"wor·ship
Noun:
The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."
http://oxforddictionaries.com...
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 10:58:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith).

You see me about as foolish as I see you.

My interpretation of Atheists

"I am so intelligent, I am able to create and think anything. I am even able to come up with theories that are constantly changing, saying we came from nothing. Yes, that is right something has come from nothing. I am so logical therefore that is logical. I am an intelligent being far more intelligent then any animal, yet I was not created by an intelligent being. That is right intelligence came from nothing. I declare that intelligence has not came from intelligence because I am intelligent. That is right there is no God because I can not see it. Just like there is no other solar system because I can't see them, oh wait yes there is. God is not real because I am so intelligent therefore an intelligent being is not possible because I am intelligent."

No offense, just showing I can make you look as foolish as you can make me.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tkubok
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3/25/2012 10:58:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 12:55:59 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1. I think a big piece of evidence is how intelligent humans are. We are by far more intelligent then any animal and also have created a language system.

Intelligence is only an attribute. Why can Cheetahs run faster than any other animal. Why is a whale the largest of all animals. Surely the evidence of how fast a cheetah is, isnt evidence for a Cheetah God. So why is the intelligence of Humans, evidence for a God?

2. Another piece of evidence is the complexity of the world and humans. How could that be happenstance? Do you see anything like this forming around us just by chance?

We already have a mechanism that creates complexity but does not require intelligence or sentience or a God. Its called Nature. The natural laws produce complexity all the time, and humans, this planet, doesnt require anything other than nature to account for its complexity.

3. The drive to do good in humans.
Animas show compassion, altruism all the time. Dogs often adopt other puppies, Velvet Monkeys will actually call out when danger is near to alert its allies nearby, despite revealing its own location and the risk of being killed and eaten. The things we call "Good" seem to be a necessity for animals who live in a society, because they recognize that "Good" actions lead to the preservation of their society.

Again, God isnt required, only nature.

4. Miracles - Don't think millions of people have lied.

No, but i think millions of people have been mistaken, yes. How many thousands of people do Magicians trick every night? How many people claim other things, like Alien abductions? What do conflicting testimonies regarding miracles, and more importantly, the source of those miracles, tell us?

We already know that human testimony can be, in many instances, terribly unreliable. We already know that being in a specific state of mind can cause hallucinations and the likes. We already know that people have claimed that different dieties from different religions have told them who gave them this miracle.

So, my question is, why would you believe this to be, in any way, a reliable measure.

5. The natural inclination to believe in something.

I dont have that inclination. What makes you think its natural.
Dan4reason
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3/25/2012 10:59:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 12:55:59 AM, tyler90az wrote:

1. I think a big piece of evidence is how intelligent humans are. We are by far more intelligent then any animal and also have created a language system.'

Actually that is a product of evolution.

2. Another piece of evidence is the complexity of the world and humans. How could that be happenstance? Do you see anything like this forming around us just by chance?

Well we do find that non-design forces created the complexity in life so complexity does not mean direct design. How do you make the improbably happen? You try it many times.

In a giant universe like this, we are bound to find a planet with the right condition for life and the right combination of forces to produce complexity because of the enormous diversity of forces and environments in the universe. Eventually, one is bound to get lucky.

3. The drive to do good in humans.

That is also explained by evolution.

4. Miracles - Don't think millions of people have lied.

Well, people make a lot of claims that are unverifiable. In some cases, some people lied, in others they got lucky and assumed it was supernatural, and in still others something happened to them which cannot currently be explained now, but is not supernatural.

People also claim healing by junk medicine, bigfoot sightings, and UFO sightings. Furthermore there are healing claims from many different religions. Isn't it weird that no miracle claims can ever be objectively verified by professionals? If God helped a patient regrow a limb in a hospital, this could be recorded by a doctor and recorded.

I actually know a couple people who make a lot of miracle claims. They are honest, but I notice that they tend to believe things easily and are not very strong on the critical thinking. They are a little irrational and their lives are not perfect so they are searching for some meaning.

5. The natural inclination to believe in something.

That just sounds more like human nature than anything.
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 11:00:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:53:34 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM, tyler90az wrote:
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.

Something that always changes, means it's always willing to improve. Any article which is proof read and changed and improved by peers for example, will contain far less errors than someone who just comes out with an article and says "You can't touch this!", because someone could just be like "You should let me touch it, you spelled this word wrong for one...".

I don't trust anything that isn't willing to change, that means there not willing to improve, that means it is filled with errors like The Bible.

Science theory is always changing and will always change. It is a good thing because it will come full circle, science is God. My point was that it is illogical to throw out proo that God does not exist because of some scientific theory that will be completely different soon enough.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Dan4reason
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3/25/2012 11:01:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:31:58 AM, tyler90az wrote:
1) What does humans being more intelligent than other animals, have to do with a God existing? I'm not seeing the connection.


The fact that we are so much smarter then all animals tells me there is a creator. If you look at all animal families they have roughly the same intelligence level. There is not a huge gap in intelligence like there is with us and our "monkey family." To say that monkeys are close to us in intelligence is false.

2) The problem is assuming there can only be two options, intelligence or 100% randomness. This is false, gravity can't randomly form a planet the shape of a cube, it will form a planet in the shape of a sphere every time (meaning it's not 100% random), but it is non-intelligent.

The fact is the wold testifies of a God. There is nothing random that even comes close to the world or humans.


3) What does good have to do with a God? I don't see the connection.

It shows that there is definite morality. Where else would this morality come from?


4) Millions of people report alien abductions, does this mean it's true off of this basis alone?

Common sense would tell you that millions of people wouldn't lie. At least one of them must be telling the truth.

5) The natural inclination to believe something has nothing to do with the actual existence of God.

Why would we have the ability to believe in a God, when animals don't?

None of what you described is evidence of anything lol

Actually the difference between the intelligence between a fish and a chimpanzee is vast. Also, we already know that humans were produced by evolution. This debate was settled 150 years ago.
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 11:02:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:56:02 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM, tyler90az wrote:
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.

P.S. Science is not a deity, so I can't worship it.

"wor·ship
Noun:
The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."
http://oxforddictionaries.com...

You can worship anything...
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
tkubok
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3/25/2012 11:05:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:58:19 AM, tyler90az wrote:
This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith).

You see me about as foolish as I see you.

My interpretation of Atheists

"I am so intelligent, I am able to create and think anything. I am even able to come up with theories that are constantly changing, saying we came from nothing. Yes, that is right something has come from nothing. I am so logical therefore that is logical. I am an intelligent being far more intelligent then any animal, yet I was not created by an intelligent being. That is right intelligence came from nothing. I declare that intelligence has not came from intelligence because I am intelligent. That is right there is no God because I can not see it. Just like there is no other solar system because I can't see them, oh wait yes there is. God is not real because I am so intelligent therefore an intelligent being is not possible because I am intelligent."

No offense, just showing I can make you look as foolish as you can make me.

The problem here, isnt that we are making you look foolish. The problem is that we are presenting objections to your arguments which you are unable to respond to, making these objections valid. If youre going to believe something despite the objections, then it doesnt matter what you choose, whether its a belief in a God, or a belief in a Flat Earth. Im sorry, but were not making you foolish, you are making yourself foolish. Its not the person who makes the objections, who is at fault, its the person who believes despite the objections.
Dan4reason
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3/25/2012 11:05:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:50:26 AM, tyler90az wrote:

They're not absolute proof, more just things to think about. Just like you could list off a bunch of things to think about regarding not believing. The only real and lasting way to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true is to read The Book of Mormon and pray about it.

How is that supposed to help you know that it is true?
Dan4reason
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3/25/2012 11:08:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 9:38:30 AM, tyler90az wrote:

How many times has science changed? There is always a new theory coming out disproving the one that was held before. How can you have faith in something that is constantly changing?

Actually it is mostly the weak theories and hypotheses that get replaced because of their lack of evidence. Theories with the strength and evidence of evolution are at most just going to be tweaked.

Give me an example of a scientific theory with the level of evidence of evolution, that has been been completely been disproved and replaced by another theory.
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 11:08:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 11:05:05 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/25/2012 10:58:19 AM, tyler90az wrote:
This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith).

You see me about as foolish as I see you.

My interpretation of Atheists

"I am so intelligent, I am able to create and think anything. I am even able to come up with theories that are constantly changing, saying we came from nothing. Yes, that is right something has come from nothing. I am so logical therefore that is logical. I am an intelligent being far more intelligent then any animal, yet I was not created by an intelligent being. That is right intelligence came from nothing. I declare that intelligence has not came from intelligence because I am intelligent. That is right there is no God because I can not see it. Just like there is no other solar system because I can't see them, oh wait yes there is. God is not real because I am so intelligent therefore an intelligent being is not possible because I am intelligent."

No offense, just showing I can make you look as foolish as you can make me.

The problem here, isnt that we are making you look foolish. The problem is that we are presenting objections to your arguments which you are unable to respond to, making these objections valid. If youre going to believe something despite the objections, then it doesnt matter what you choose, whether its a belief in a God, or a belief in a Flat Earth. Im sorry, but were not making you foolish, you are making yourself foolish. Its not the person who makes the objections, who is at fault, its the person who believes despite the objections.

That was a response to this

"This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith)."

You think I am wrong and I think you guys are wrong. I guess that is why I am a theist and your an atheist.

Have you ever attempted to reach deity? Have you opened the door? If you never give him a chance to come in, how do you expect to know God is real?
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/25/2012 11:11:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:58:19 AM, tyler90az wrote:
This is why I believe theists suffer from an anthropomorphic delusion (I do not mean to offend anybody of faith).

You see me about as foolish as I see you.

My interpretation of Atheists

"I am so intelligent, I am able to create and think anything. I am even able to come up with theories that are constantly changing, saying we came from nothing. Yes, that is right something has come from nothing. I am so logical therefore that is logical. I am an intelligent being far more intelligent then any animal, yet I was not created by an intelligent being. That is right intelligence came from nothing. I declare that intelligence has not came from intelligence because I am intelligent. That is right there is no God because I can not see it. Just like there is no other solar system because I can't see them, oh wait yes there is. God is not real because I am so intelligent therefore an intelligent being is not possible because I am intelligent."

No offense, just showing I can make you look as foolish as you can make me.

"No offense, just showing I can make you look as foolish as you can make me."

Can you? Lets see if what you wrote coincides with my beliefs/disbelief.

"I am so intelligent, I am able to create and think anything. I am even able to come up with theories that are constantly changing, saying we came from nothing."

Theories that are constantly changing mean they are getting closer and closer to the truth, something that isn't willing to change shouldn't be trusted, because no errors have been filtered out.

Also, I do not believe that something came from nothing. The theist does, most of them believe God created the universe ex nihilo (AKA from nothing). Don't confused atheist and theist beliefs, it's them who seem to believe in "something from nothing".

" I am so logical therefore that is logical. I am an intelligent being far more intelligent then any animal, yet I was not created by an intelligent being. That is right intelligence came from nothing."

Once more, I don't believe in intelligence came from nothing. So far, you aren't making me look foolish at all.

"I declare that intelligence has not came from intelligence because I am intelligent. That is right there is no God because I can not see it."

I believe intelligence comes from the brain, and the brain can only exists if matter exists, so I find it far fetched that intelligence can exist before matter. My disbelief in God doesn't have much to do with lack of observation.

Just like there is no other solar system because I can't see them, oh wait yes there is. God is not real because I am so intelligent therefore an intelligent being is not possible because I am intelligent.

Once more, my lack of belief doesn't stem from lack of observation.

...

So, did you make me look like a fool? Nope, only yourself once more because you were arguing against stances I don't hold.
16kadams
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3/25/2012 11:12:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 12:55:59 AM, tyler90az wrote:
At 3/24/2012 11:43:13 PM, crossfade102495 wrote:
I would venture to say that there is not the slightest bit of conclusive evidence that God exists. I know that this is an obvious statement to many, but I haven't had anyone actually debate the topic with me yet so I figured I would put it in the forums. Any other atheists out there? Or any theists who think they have evidence/proof? :)

1. I think a big piece of evidence is how intelligent humans are. We are by far more intelligent then any animal and also have created a language system.

That's natural evolution for you.


2. Another piece of evidence is the complexity of the world and humans. How could that be happenstance? Do you see anything like this forming around us just by chance?

Yes, there are many planets and areas that have our ability, we only know 4% of the universe, so its possible its just random chance.


3. The drive to do good in humans.

Natural behavior does not mean god does this.


4. Miracles - Don't think millions of people have lied.

Yes, I do. Many people see jackal opes, aliens, and big foot, but is eyewitness testimony accurate?


5. The natural inclination to believe in something.

That disproves your point. If its our natural behavior to believe in something then your not sure it even exists, so yeah/
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Dan4reason
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3/25/2012 11:13:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 10:44:52 AM, tyler90az wrote:
Oh so THAT'S how you learn about the secrets of the universe, silly me, I thought that was physicist's and cosmologists job to discover these things... I'm now going to read The Book of Mormon to learn about the truth of existence!

It seems like you worship science.... Science the always changing god.

We believe science, but we do not worship. Nothing should ever be worshiped.
tyler90az
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3/25/2012 11:14:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/25/2012 11:08:36 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/25/2012 9:38:30 AM, tyler90az wrote:

How many times has science changed? There is always a new theory coming out disproving the one that was held before. How can you have faith in something that is constantly changing?

Actually it is mostly the weak theories and hypotheses that get replaced because of their lack of evidence. Theories with the strength and evidence of evolution are at most just going to be tweaked.

Give me an example of a scientific theory with the level of evidence of evolution, that has been been completely been disproved and replaced by another theory.

I just want to make it clear that many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in the big bang and evolution. You don't have to not believe in those things and be members.

Responding to you

It is not so much that they have been disproved, I am sure some have though. The fact is science is constantly evolving. It is always progressing up and being added unto, like you say. Evolution and the Big Bang may well be true, but it is not he whole story. As we progress and become more scientifically knowledgeable, those theories will be added unto, eventually coming full circle to God. Think of evolution and the Big Bang as an infant child, that will grow up. God is science, science is God.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama