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How do Christians believe hell works?

Rational_Thinker9119
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3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.
GeoLaureate8
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3/26/2012 3:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Theres so many moderate and luke-warm Christians that none of them even believe in Hell any more.
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OberHerr
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3/26/2012 3:52:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 3:52:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Theres so many moderate and luke-warm Christians that none of them even believe in Hell any more.

Speak for yourself.
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OberHerr
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3/26/2012 3:53:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And, RT, basically it's a world completely, and totally apart from God. there is no good, no hope, nothing that could vaguely be considered anywhere near good.

Only bad, suffering, pain, darkness ect.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

I think the pain is both literal (physical) and psychological. In Luke 16, the rich man spoke, "Send Lazarus" - as to whether he needed vocal cords to do it, I'm not certain, but he had a tongue, so I suppose if he could get a new tongue, he could get a new set of vocal cords. No, there is no time in hell. Is there sound in hell? The Bible says there will be wailing and knashing of teeth.

I have a question: has any atheist yet calculated the odds of a pair of eyes such as we possess simply occurring accidently by random selection. I'm a little familiar with the tear film (to lubricate and protect), the cornea, anterior chamber, pupil and iris and ciliary muscle, posterior chamber, rods, cones, and optic nerve. I'd like to know the approximate odds of "natural selection", "survival of the fittest", etc working together and producing an ophthalmic system such as we now possess. I'm inclined to think this "hell" you speak of will freeze over before anyone ventures a guess. Is it, like, 1 outta 10? 1 outta 10,000? 1 outta 10,000,000,000? Are the odds so high as to render the concept practically impossible?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

I think the pain is both literal (physical) and psychological. In Luke 16, the rich man spoke, "Send Lazarus" - as to whether he needed vocal cords to do it, I'm not certain, but he had a tongue, so I suppose if he could get a new tongue, he could get a new set of vocal cords. No, there is no time in hell. Is there sound in hell? The Bible says there will be wailing and knashing of teeth.

I have a question: has any atheist yet calculated the odds of a pair of eyes such as we possess simply occurring accidently by random selection. I'm a little familiar with the tear film (to lubricate and protect), the cornea, anterior chamber, pupil and iris and ciliary muscle, posterior chamber, rods, cones, and optic nerve. I'd like to know the approximate odds of "natural selection", "survival of the fittest", etc working together and producing an ophthalmic system such as we now possess. I'm inclined to think this "hell" you speak of will freeze over before anyone ventures a guess. Is it, like, 1 outta 10? 1 outta 10,000? 1 outta 10,000,000,000? Are the odds so high as to render the concept practically impossible?

If I deal you 13 random cards, it doesn't matter what hand you get, the odds of you getting that exact hand would be 1 and 635,000,000,000.

If you walk into a waiting room, the odds that you would be waiting with that exact set of people are astronomical.

Every day odds are defied on grand scales, it's no biggie, it's the universe we live in :)
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/26/2012 4:21:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

I think the pain is both literal (physical) and psychological. In Luke 16, the rich man spoke, "Send Lazarus" - as to whether he needed vocal cords to do it, I'm not certain, but he had a tongue, so I suppose if he could get a new tongue, he could get a new set of vocal cords. No, there is no time in hell. Is there sound in hell? The Bible says there will be wailing and knashing of teeth.

I have a question: has any atheist yet calculated the odds of a pair of eyes such as we possess simply occurring accidently by random selection. I'm a little familiar with the tear film (to lubricate and protect), the cornea, anterior chamber, pupil and iris and ciliary muscle, posterior chamber, rods, cones, and optic nerve. I'd like to know the approximate odds of "natural selection", "survival of the fittest", etc working together and producing an ophthalmic system such as we now possess. I'm inclined to think this "hell" you speak of will freeze over before anyone ventures a guess. Is it, like, 1 outta 10? 1 outta 10,000? 1 outta 10,000,000,000? Are the odds so high as to render the concept practically impossible?

Also Natural Selection as a mechanism isn't random, but the mutations that occur because of it are.

Humans aren't immoral, we can't naturally grow our limbs back, and we eat through the same hole we breath through which is unnecessarily fatal and kills many each year.

The Turritopsis Nutricula Jellyfish is immortal, Starfish can naturally grow their limbs back, and Dolphins breath through a different hole that they consume their food with.

It's clear if you look at animals and that Natural Selection due to random mutation is exactly what is happening on planet Earth.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/26/2012 4:21:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

I think the pain is both literal (physical) and psychological. In Luke 16, the rich man spoke, "Send Lazarus" - as to whether he needed vocal cords to do it, I'm not certain, but he had a tongue, so I suppose if he could get a new tongue, he could get a new set of vocal cords. No, there is no time in hell. Is there sound in hell? The Bible says there will be wailing and knashing of teeth.

I have a question: has any atheist yet calculated the odds of a pair of eyes such as we possess simply occurring accidently by random selection. I'm a little familiar with the tear film (to lubricate and protect), the cornea, anterior chamber, pupil and iris and ciliary muscle, posterior chamber, rods, cones, and optic nerve. I'd like to know the approximate odds of "natural selection", "survival of the fittest", etc working together and producing an ophthalmic system such as we now possess. I'm inclined to think this "hell" you speak of will freeze over before anyone ventures a guess. Is it, like, 1 outta 10? 1 outta 10,000? 1 outta 10,000,000,000? Are the odds so high as to render the concept practically impossible?

*Humans aren't immortal
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


"If I deal you 13 random cards, it doesn't matter what hand you get, the odds of you getting that exact hand would be 1 and 635,000,000,000."

Well, actually, on that one, you'd have to start with a pine tree, I guess, then have the cards made by natural selection. Course that's "no biggie", either: it happens all the time. After that, they'd have the be valued randomly at deuce to ace, 52 total of 4 suits, randomly. Then dealt as you described. Any guess on the odds of that? I'll take any guess.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


"If I deal you 13 random cards, it doesn't matter what hand you get, the odds of you getting that exact hand would be 1 and 635,000,000,000."

Well, actually, on that one, you'd have to start with a pine tree, I guess, then have the cards made by natural selection. Course that's "no biggie", either: it happens all the time. After that, they'd have the be valued randomly at deuce to ace, 52 total of 4 suits, randomly. Then dealt as you described. Any guess on the odds of that? I'll take any guess.

Mutations work on a DNA level, and there are 3000000000 base letters. On average, the chance of a specific base letter mutation is (2.5*10^-8). This makes around 75 mutations in the human body every generation. Ignoring bottlenecks and other factors to drastically increase these mutations, this would mean, with 40,000,000 people, we are more likely than not able to get every base letter mutated. This is ignoring the masses more people we have right now, the masses more we use to have, etc.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


"If I deal you 13 random cards, it doesn't matter what hand you get, the odds of you getting that exact hand would be 1 and 635,000,000,000."

Well, actually, on that one, you'd have to start with a pine tree, I guess, then have the cards made by natural selection. Course that's "no biggie", either: it happens all the time. After that, they'd have the be valued randomly at deuce to ace, 52 total of 4 suits, randomly. Then dealt as you described. Any guess on the odds of that? I'll take any guess.

Mutations work on a DNA level, and there are 3000000000 base letters. On average, the chance of a specific base letter mutation is (2.5*10^-8). This makes around 75 mutations in the human body every generation. Ignoring bottlenecks and other factors to drastically increase these mutations, this would mean, with 40,000,000 people, we are more likely than not able to get every base letter mutated. This is ignoring the masses more people we have right now, the masses more we use to have, etc.

Ummm ... ok. I take it that the chances of a deck of playing cards simply "developing" from a pine tree, perfectly numbered in four suits for a total deck of 52, then dealing ANY hand - no matter what it is = effectively no chance whatsoever. I guess it's 1 outta something, but I only have room for 6,000 zeros. Does 1 outta infinity count?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/26/2012 7:30:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hell is a special place reserved only for those who believe in it and think you will go there if you don't.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

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Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/26/2012 7:47:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

I think the pain is both literal (physical) and psychological. In Luke 16, the rich man spoke, "Send Lazarus" - as to whether he needed vocal cords to do it, I'm not certain, but he had a tongue, so I suppose if he could get a new tongue, he could get a new set of vocal cords. No, there is no time in hell. Is there sound in hell? The Bible says there will be wailing and knashing of teeth.

I have a question: has any atheist yet calculated the odds of a pair of eyes such as we possess simply occurring accidently by random selection. I'm a little familiar with the tear film (to lubricate and protect), the cornea, anterior chamber, pupil and iris and ciliary muscle, posterior chamber, rods, cones, and optic nerve. I'd like to know the approximate odds of "natural selection", "survival of the fittest", etc working together and producing an ophthalmic system such as we now possess. I'm inclined to think this "hell" you speak of will freeze over before anyone ventures a guess. Is it, like, 1 outta 10? 1 outta 10,000? 1 outta 10,000,000,000? Are the odds so high as to render the concept practically impossible?

The odds, that mutations alone will produce eyes are almost impossible.

However, natural selection will weed out the bad mutations, and over generations, good mutations that create eyes will start building up. So the odds are 100%.

We have seen natural selection and mutations produce multicellularity, bacteria that break down nylon, bacteria that evolve the ability to digest citrate, bacterial resistance to drugs, and human resistance to HIV. This is the power of natural selection. It makes seemingly impossible events become 100% possible.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


"If I deal you 13 random cards, it doesn't matter what hand you get, the odds of you getting that exact hand would be 1 and 635,000,000,000."

Well, actually, on that one, you'd have to start with a pine tree, I guess, then have the cards made by natural selection. Course that's "no biggie", either: it happens all the time. After that, they'd have the be valued randomly at deuce to ace, 52 total of 4 suits, randomly. Then dealt as you described. Any guess on the odds of that? I'll take any guess.

Mutations work on a DNA level, and there are 3000000000 base letters. On average, the chance of a specific base letter mutation is (2.5*10^-8). This makes around 75 mutations in the human body every generation. Ignoring bottlenecks and other factors to drastically increase these mutations, this would mean, with 40,000,000 people, we are more likely than not able to get every base letter mutated. This is ignoring the masses more people we have right now, the masses more we use to have, etc.

Ummm ... ok. I take it that the chances of a deck of playing cards simply "developing" from a pine tree, perfectly numbered in four suits for a total deck of 52, then dealing ANY hand - no matter what it is = effectively no chance whatsoever. I guess it's 1 outta something, but I only have room for 6,000 zeros. Does 1 outta infinity count?

The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 8:18:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 7:47:10 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
"However, natural selection will weed out the bad mutations, and over generations, good mutations that create eyes will start building up. So the odds are 100%.... This is the power of natural selection. It makes seemingly impossible events become 100% possible."

Good, then I'd like one in the back of my head. Lincoln needed one, and I might too.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.

Random mutation is a fact; evolution by natural selection is, as you said, nothing more than a theory. And you see my point: the sheer odds that two eyes developed somehow randomly and found their way just to the most useful spot are so ridiculously high that no one would even give odds on it. The cardiopulmonary, endocrine, and reproductive systems could be compounded on top of the ophthalmic. Whether one believes in the creation narrative of Genesis or not, this accidental, random mutation followed by natural selection seems to me to be mathematically impossible.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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3/26/2012 9:15:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.

Random mutation is a fact; evolution by natural selection is, as you said, nothing more than a theory. And you see my point: the sheer odds that two eyes developed somehow randomly and found their way just to the most useful spot are so ridiculously high that no one would even give odds on it. The cardiopulmonary, endocrine, and reproductive systems could be compounded on top of the ophthalmic. Whether one believes in the creation narrative of Genesis or not, this accidental, random mutation followed by natural selection seems to me to be mathematically impossible.

Natural selection will occur if the following statements are true:

1. Generations reproduce with variation
2. Resources are limited
3. Variation leads to differential reproduction rates

Unless you have an example of when this is not the case, the occurrence of natural selection is as much a fact as the occurrence of gravity (namely, if you posit a vacuum with zero objects you can posit minimal or non-existence of gravity).
Lickdafoot
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3/26/2012 9:21:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 3:52:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Theres so many moderate and luke-warm Christians that none of them even believe in Hell any more.

lmao.

it is true though that there is a lot of evidence in the bible to support the idea that hell, separation from god, means death which lasts eternally, rather than torture that lasts eternally.
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Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/26/2012 9:41:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 8:18:49 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:47:10 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
"However, natural selection will weed out the bad mutations, and over generations, good mutations that create eyes will start building up. So the odds are 100%.... This is the power of natural selection. It makes seemingly impossible events become 100% possible."

Good, then I'd like one in the back of my head. Lincoln needed one, and I might too.

Well, natural selection and mutations don't care about what you want.

If you are wondering whether evolution is true, the evidence for human evolution has already confirmed it. The image below shows a summary of human evolution.
http://industrialdesigntopicc.wikispaces.com...
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.

Random mutation is a fact; evolution by natural selection is, as you said, nothing more than a theory. And you see my point: the sheer odds that two eyes developed somehow randomly and found their way just to the most useful spot are so ridiculously high that no one would even give odds on it. The cardiopulmonary, endocrine, and reproductive systems could be compounded on top of the ophthalmic. Whether one believes in the creation narrative of Genesis or not, this accidental, random mutation followed by natural selection seems to me to be mathematically impossible.

Why is evolution by natural selection and mutations impossible?

In science a theory is an explanation that has collected a significant amount of evidence. Much of this evidence comes by making some predictions using the theory. There should be a large probability of them becoming false if the theory is not true and this is what makes the theory falsifiable.

If these predictions come true, then the theory gains evidence. If they are false then the theory has evidence against it.

In non-scientific terms a theory is a hypothetical supported by little or no evidence. Big difference.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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3/26/2012 10:03:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do it all over again until you get it right.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/26/2012 10:31:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.

Random mutation is a fact; evolution by natural selection is, as you said, nothing more than a theory. And you see my point: the sheer odds that two eyes developed somehow randomly and found their way just to the most useful spot are so ridiculously high that no one would even give odds on it. The cardiopulmonary, endocrine, and reproductive systems could be compounded on top of the ophthalmic. Whether one believes in the creation narrative of Genesis or not, this accidental, random mutation followed by natural selection seems to me to be mathematically impossible.

Why is evolution by natural selection and mutations impossible?

In science a theory is an explanation that has collected a significant amount of evidence. Much of this evidence comes by making some predictions using the theory. There should be a large probability of them becoming false if the theory is not true and this is what makes the theory falsifiable.

If these predictions come true, then the theory gains evidence. If they are false then the theory has evidence against it.

In non-scientific terms a theory is a hypothetical supported by little or no evidence. Big difference.

"Why is evolution by natural selection and mutations impossible?" I didn't say "impossible." I simply asked the odds of a pine tree turning into a deck of playing cards, a full 52-card deck ... (and I'll make it easier: leave out the jokers) without some kind of intelligent design behind it all? And what are the odds in favor of things without eyes simply "genetically-mutating" along until the finally kinda "develop" a cornea, lens, pupil, iris, ciliary muscle, anterior chamber, posterior chamber, and optic nerve? Two times? One sittin just above and on either side of the nose? Same thing for the cardiopulmonary system, endocrine system, reproductive system, and hematopoietic system. If I'm gonna believe all of that occurred via "genetic mutation" progressing to "random selection", I'd kinda like to know the odds on on. Sorta like buying a stock.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/26/2012 10:35:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 10:31:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




The point is Evolution by Natural Selection is one of sciences most solid theories. Random Mutation is a fact.

Random mutation is a fact; evolution by natural selection is, as you said, nothing more than a theory. And you see my point: the sheer odds that two eyes developed somehow randomly and found their way just to the most useful spot are so ridiculously high that no one would even give odds on it. The cardiopulmonary, endocrine, and reproductive systems could be compounded on top of the ophthalmic. Whether one believes in the creation narrative of Genesis or not, this accidental, random mutation followed by natural selection seems to me to be mathematically impossible.

Why is evolution by natural selection and mutations impossible?

In science a theory is an explanation that has collected a significant amount of evidence. Much of this evidence comes by making some predictions using the theory. There should be a large probability of them becoming false if the theory is not true and this is what makes the theory falsifiable.

If these predictions come true, then the theory gains evidence. If they are false then the theory has evidence against it.

In non-scientific terms a theory is a hypothetical supported by little or no evidence. Big difference.

"Why is evolution by natural selection and mutations impossible?" I didn't say "impossible." I simply asked the odds of a pine tree turning into a deck of playing cards, a full 52-card deck ... (and I'll make it easier: leave out the jokers) without some kind of intelligent design behind it all? And what are the odds in favor of things without eyes simply "genetically-mutating" along until the finally kinda "develop" a cornea, lens, pupil, iris, ciliary muscle, anterior chamber, posterior chamber, and optic nerve? Two times? One sittin just above and on either side of the nose? Same thing for the cardiopulmonary system, endocrine system, reproductive system, and hematopoietic system. If I'm gonna believe all of that occurred via "genetic mutation" progressing to "random selection", I'd kinda like to know the odds on on. Sorta like buying a stock.

Let me see if I understand your point. Lets say that you roll a dice 100 times. What is the probability that it will get a 1 every time? Very unlikely.

This like making many random mutations and getting a specific DNA sequence that codes for a complex precise organ like an eye or a lung.

Is this your point?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/27/2012 12:19:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 10:35:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:31:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




"Let me see if I understand your point. Lets say that you roll a dice 100 times. What is the probability that it will get a 1 every time? Very unlikely.

This like making many random mutations and getting a specific DNA sequence that codes for a complex precise organ like an eye or a lung.

Is this your point?"

In a way, simplied - maybe over-simplified. I'm saying that random mutations of a simple-celled organism winding up, over who-knows-how-long, resulting in a human with complex organ systems, such as the ophthalmic, are 1 out of infinity: nobody can count that high, and indeed no one will try to. The theory is ultimately unproveable, and certain aspects of it are downright silly. I have no problem KNOWING that, for instance, bacteria mutate in response to certain antibiotics, but they are STILL bacteria. Cancer cells mutate - in fact, they are mutations - but they further mutate in response to chemotherapy drugs. But they have yet to mutate into normal cells. So mutation exists.

I simply asked for some estimate - some representation - SOMETHING pertaining to the likelihood that some creature with no eyes at all "mutated along" and somehow developed into a human with the complex ophthalmic system that we now possess. Tear glands simply "mutated" from something cuz the developing eye needed some lubricant? The ciliary muscle sorta "mutated" out of something - "came bout" - so the iris could be constricted? I find the odds against such things to be uncalculatable - nobody WILL feign a calculation. Then they say (often with a sneer), "I don't have to ... just accept it." Well, I don't. I'd have a better chance of winning every lottery for the next couple million years if the earth stands that long.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/27/2012 12:48:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 12:19:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:35:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:31:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




"Let me see if I understand your point. Lets say that you roll a dice 100 times. What is the probability that it will get a 1 every time? Very unlikely.

This like making many random mutations and getting a specific DNA sequence that codes for a complex precise organ like an eye or a lung.

Is this your point?"

In a way, simplied - maybe over-simplified. I'm saying that random mutations of a simple-celled organism winding up, over who-knows-how-long, resulting in a human with complex organ systems, such as the ophthalmic, are 1 out of infinity: nobody can count that high, and indeed no one will try to. The theory is ultimately unproveable, and certain aspects of it are downright silly. I have no problem KNOWING that, for instance, bacteria mutate in response to certain antibiotics, but they are STILL bacteria. Cancer cells mutate - in fact, they are mutations - but they further mutate in response to chemotherapy drugs. But they have yet to mutate into normal cells. So mutation exists.

I simply asked for some estimate - some representation - SOMETHING pertaining to the likelihood that some creature with no eyes at all "mutated along" and somehow developed into a human with the complex ophthalmic system that we now possess. Tear glands simply "mutated" from something cuz the developing eye needed some lubricant? The ciliary muscle sorta "mutated" out of something - "came bout" - so the iris could be constricted? I find the odds against such things to be uncalculatable - nobody WILL feign a calculation. Then they say (often with a sneer), "I don't have to ... just accept it." Well, I don't. I'd have a better chance of winning every lottery for the next couple million years if the earth stands that long.

In your post you are assuming that the eye evolved before the lubricant. How do you know this? For all you know the lubricant evolved first. Your post is in error.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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3/27/2012 3:13:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 12:48:13 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/27/2012 12:19:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:35:32 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 10:31:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 9:50:47 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 8:27:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:49:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:24:51 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:31:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:23:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:15:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:




"In your post you are assuming that the eye evolved before the lubricant. How do you know this? For all you know the lubricant evolved first. Your post is in error."

Ummm, ok ... possibilty tear ducts developed first for unknown reasons. Or maybe in view of the later development cornea that would need lubricating. Who knows? I thought I read somewhere that the development of tear ducts was an adaptive measure cuz pre-historic creatures got all fed up with the cornea drying out and crackin. And, amazingly, they "mutated" or "adapted" in such a way that BOTH EYES got the necessary tear ducts. Come to think of it, I believe the tear ducts, both of them, would have HAD to develop right at the same time as both corneas because there's nothing more useless over time than a dried out, cracked, ulcerated, and opaque cornea. Dang. What are the odds of that?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/27/2012 7:58:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

No different than if you were today to walk into a fire and you would burn until there was nothing left. The only difference would be you could have avoided this and this would be more painful than the flames. Not only for you but for GOD who made a way of escape but they would not, they have there choice, and GOD tearfully honours that decision, separation from life. Mal.4:1,3;2Pet.3:10,Rev.20:14,15
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/27/2012 8:20:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 7:58:50 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

No different than if you were today to walk into a fire and you would burn until there was nothing left. The only difference would be you could have avoided this and this would be more painful than the flames. Not only for you but for GOD who made a way of escape but they would not, they have there choice, and GOD tearfully honours that decision, separation from life. Mal.4:1,3;2Pet.3:10,Rev.20:14,15

God shouldn't have made hell possible if he is all good. I'd rather not worship a psychopath who would make room for a place like that .
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/27/2012 8:24:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/26/2012 8:18:49 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 7:47:10 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/26/2012 4:05:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
"However, natural selection will weed out the bad mutations, and over generations, good mutations that create eyes will start building up. So the odds are 100%.... This is the power of natural selection. It makes seemingly impossible events become 100% possible."

Good, then I'd like one in the back of my head. Lincoln needed one, and I might too.

This is you trying to select what you want, that has nothing to do with random mutation lol Also evolution is a theory, so is atomic theory, does that mean you don't believe in Atoms? Do you not believe in gravity because it's "just a theory?"

No, some theories are facts. Evolution is one of them, it has more evidence backing it up than most scientific theories. Is the Heliocentric theory just a theory (another example)? Does that mean you don't believe the earth revolves around the sun?

According to your logic, gravity, atoms, and the earth rotating around the sun are false because they are just theories....lol
Suqua
Posts: 433
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3/27/2012 8:29:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/27/2012 8:20:44 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/27/2012 7:58:50 AM, Suqua wrote:
At 3/26/2012 3:48:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Do you gain back your biological pain receptors upon arrival, or are you just an immaterial soul with some kind of different way of feeling pain? What is the fuel for the flames, is there an infinite amount? Is there some mechanism at play making sure I don't get used to the flames and still feel every bit of pain like the second before? Is there time in hell? Do I get a new pair of vocal chords to scream and create measurable sound waves with or is there no sound in hell, or is it immaterial?

I would like to hear a Christians hypothesize about how they think this place works.

No different than if you were today to walk into a fire and you would burn until there was nothing left. The only difference would be you could have avoided this and this would be more painful than the flames. Not only for you but for GOD who made a way of escape but they would not, they have there choice, and GOD tearfully honours that decision, separation from life. Mal.4:1,3;2Pet.3:10,Rev.20:14,15

God shouldn't have made hell possible if he is all good. I'd rather not worship a psychopath who would make room for a place like that .

You seem to think that hell is a place that GOD choose! There is no room for hell that's why it's done away with.