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Yahweh and the Appeal to Ignorance

tvellalott
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3/28/2012 11:22:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This question always bugs me about the intelligent design proponents.

What precise line of reasoning leads from:

The Universe seems designed
...to...
God did it.

It implies that you somehow know that creating a Universe is very difficult, when you don't. It could be very simple for some higher power, like creating a sandwich seems like the act of an omnipotent being to an ant.

By coming to this conclusion, you must have ignored mountains of scientific studies, experiments, theories and laws. I mean, we know non-random things happen naturally, because that's what science is all about. I suppose you could try and argue that God set those laws in place, but that is just moving the goalposts.

Anyway, after hastily coming to the conclusion that it was God, you somehow follow to...

P1) God did it.
P2) This book proclaims that that God is Yahweh.
C) Yahweh did it.

You get from...
The Universe seems designed...
to...
Yahweh did it...

...with nothing but an appeal to ignorance and a book of nonsense, archaic desert fairy tales.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Lickdafoot
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3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/28/2012 11:22:52 PM, tvellalott wrote:
This question always bugs me about the intelligent design proponents.

What precise line of reasoning leads from:

The Universe seems designed
...to...
God did it.
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It implies that you somehow know that creating a Universe is very difficult, when you don't. It could be very simple for some higher power, like creating a sandwich seems like the act of an omnipotent being to an ant.

By coming to this conclusion, you must have ignored mountains of scientific studies, experiments, theories and laws. I mean, we know non-random things happen naturally, because that's what science is all about. I suppose you could try and argue that God set those laws in place, but that is just moving the goalposts.

Anyway, after hastily coming to the conclusion that it was God, you somehow follow to...

P1) God did it.
P2) This book proclaims that that God is Yahweh.
C) Yahweh did it.

You get from...
The Universe seems designed...
to...
Yahweh did it...

...with nothing but an appeal to ignorance and a book of nonsense, archaic desert fairy tales.

Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.
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tvellalott
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3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.

Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT! We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed" then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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popculturepooka
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3/29/2012 12:44:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I say everything occurs naturally.


Prove it.
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Lickdafoot
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3/29/2012 12:54:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.


Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT! We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed" then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.

Nope. Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way. However, when you say that everything is natural, you are implying that they are accidental. The odds of us living off of an accident aren't very great. If you see existence as a series of non-random laws, then that implies a certain purpose or cause of them, yes?
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Dan4reason
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3/29/2012 1:09:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:54:47 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.


Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT! We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed" then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.

Nope. Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way. However, when you say that everything is natural, you are implying that they are accidental. The odds of us living off of an accident aren't very great. If you see existence as a series of non-random laws, then that implies a certain purpose or cause of them, yes?

In statistics, how do you make something unlikely, imminent? You try it many times.

It is unlikely you will win the lottery right? What if you try 1,000,000,000,000 times?
Lickdafoot
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3/29/2012 1:17:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 1:09:51 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:54:47 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.


Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT! We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed" then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.

Nope. Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way. However, when you say that everything is natural, you are implying that they are accidental. The odds of us living off of an accident aren't very great. If you see existence as a series of non-random laws, then that implies a certain purpose or cause of them, yes?

In statistics, how do you make something unlikely, imminent? You try it many times.

It is unlikely you will win the lottery right? What if you try 1,000,000,000,000 times?

trying implies intent. unless you are saying that the big bang randomly happened billions of times.
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Dan4reason
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3/29/2012 1:55:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 1:17:08 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/29/2012 1:09:51 AM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:54:47 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.


Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT! We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed" then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.

Nope. Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way. However, when you say that everything is natural, you are implying that they are accidental. The odds of us living off of an accident aren't very great. If you see existence as a series of non-random laws, then that implies a certain purpose or cause of them, yes?

In statistics, how do you make something unlikely, imminent? You try it many times.

It is unlikely you will win the lottery right? What if you try 1,000,000,000,000 times?

trying implies intent. unless you are saying that the big bang randomly happened billions of times.

I was using an example to demonstrate a statistical rule.

First you are confusing a non-design event with a random event. All non-design events have causes, that even tend to happen consistently in certain circumstances. Also we do see patterns in non-design events because they follow causality.

Second, I don't know why we need the big bang to happen billions of times to get life. It only needs to happen once.
tvellalott
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3/29/2012 1:57:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:44:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I say everything occurs naturally.


Prove it.

What would constitute proof for you, dear sir?
I'm saying "I don't know, but I think it probably happened naturally as opposed to supernaturally."
I'm not claiming omniscience, just making vague assertions in response to lickdafoot's question.
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tvellalott
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3/29/2012 2:06:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
We have two big "unanswered" questions, right?

1) How did the Universe begin to exist, with all it's self-governing laws?
2) How did life on Earth begin to exist, with all it's intricacy and nuance?

Well, no-one really knows.

But since everything I've never observed a supernatural occurrence or been provided suitable proof that the supernatural exists, I can only conclude that it doesn't exist. If it did exist, as so many people believe it does, where is the evidence.
It just seems like every single thing that gets pointed to is either an argument for ignorance (we don't know, therefore God) or general ignorance (I don't understand, therefore God).
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The_Fool_on_the_hill
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3/29/2012 3:20:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:54:47 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:32:17 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

It seems designed, but isn't? I'm a Physicalist. I believe that (theoretically) everything can be explained with mathematics and scientific principles, even if they never will be. Would you say a snowflake was designed? No; despite the intricate patterns, it occurs naturally. I say everything occurs naturally.


Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression.

The Fool: you need how its an over simplication. Just stating it doesn't demonstrate.

Lickdafoot: Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.

The Fool: The problem is that everybody thoughts are within a natural human. To claim super natural knowledge is to assert some king of superhuman ability. This may be true but it is up to those who claim it to proof it. Especialy when they want to claim that others should adopt thier beliefs.

And I accept that. If you're a Christian on faith and you acknowledge that, GREAT!

The Fool: Accepting has nothing to do with it. I may reject law of non-contridition. but low in behold I still run is both direction and move somewhere not matter if I accept it or not. I may accept that unicorn exist. But my acceptence doesn't affect nothing other the fact that I accepted.

We have no problem. If you come on to DDO and start saying "The Universe is designed because it couldn't possibly not be designed"

The Fool: Its a debating site. if claim such things then its you that must demonstrate it. And show why other demonstations have been wrong.

then we have a problem because I don't see design, I simply see natural, non-random laws.

Nope. Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way.

The Fool: you would have to be out of you Human mind to make that assumption. All abstract principles are absolute. Aka Anything is and abolute claim of all things.
1 says noting imparticular. That is why 1 is abolute. Even to say that everything is a view point is an Absolute claim of all Human knowledgs. Even to say that knowledge is subjective is and Abolute claim of knowledge.

Foot in mouth:"Anything is possible and humans are far from being knowledgeable enough to assert absolutes either way."
Is and absolute assertion. If there are no absolute you can't even say There are no abolute. because that would an absolute. claim!! (

The Fool: You are Right that anything is possible. That is ANY THING, this doesn't include not thing. Nor something and it opposite in very same way (they will cancel each other out)

LikdaFoot: However, when you say that everything is natural, you are implying that they are accidental.

The Fool: Natural doesn't presuppose any accedental. Your Human mind is natural. As a matter of fact nothing is accedental. For everything that happens becomes locked in time. Therefore determines, things only appear accidental when we are ignorant of its cause. That is there is know way to tell accidental and ignorance apart.

LikdaFoot: The odds of us living off of an accident aren't very great. If you see existence as a series of non-random laws, then that implies a certain purpose or cause of them, yes?

The Fool: NO it imply a suffient reason. AKa The Princible of Suffient Reason.
aka If P then Q p->q. Purpose is based on emotion. Which is within our Human minds. But I do think like has purpose. But we just havent figured it out yet.
To say God is just a cop out. In trying to understand it. IF we go further back enough in time and culture. Everything we didn't understand was attributed to Gods or spirits. It has always been a default explanation. Progress in understanding the world is defined as explaining the world with having to appeall to the supernatural.

Why? because we are Natrual humans. To claim supernatural is alway an apeal to ignorance. because all we are saying is that its above our understanding. So we make Supernature Anthropomorphic entity. Which by definiiton we can't know. And but the Reason in that entity. Thats why they must define God with a incomprehensible predicate. This doesn't expain anything the answer just got Red Herringed into the enity of God. Which we can't know or makes no sense, like something from nothing.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/29/2012 9:08:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 12:07:29 AM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/28/2012 11:22:52 PM, tvellalott wrote:
This question always bugs me about the intelligent design proponents.

What precise line of reasoning leads from:

The Universe seems designed
...to...
God did it.
Is that not essentially what god is, the designer of the universe. If the universe is designed, something had to design it... what would your alternative to that be?

I don't know. You are the one claiming you do know (you claim God did it), so the burden is on you to explain why intelligence and sentience is necessary for the universe to exist.


It implies that you somehow know that creating a Universe is very difficult, when you don't. It could be very simple for some higher power, like creating a sandwich seems like the act of an omnipotent being to an ant.

By coming to this conclusion, you must have ignored mountains of scientific studies, experiments, theories and laws. I mean, we know non-random things happen naturally, because that's what science is all about. I suppose you could try and argue that God set those laws in place, but that is just moving the goalposts.

Anyway, after hastily coming to the conclusion that it was God, you somehow follow to...

P1) God did it.
P2) This book proclaims that that God is Yahweh.
C) Yahweh did it.

You get from...
The Universe seems designed...
to...
Yahweh did it...

...with nothing but an appeal to ignorance and a book of nonsense, archaic desert fairy tales.

Kind of oversimplified to say it as a hasty progression. Everyone has a different series of experiences/ideas that might have led them to accept the christian outlook.
Illegalcombatant
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4/2/2012 3:32:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It has been said that intelligent design is just one fat argument from ignorance.

You can't explain this, you can't explain that...........GAP...................therefore God did it.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
The_Fool_on-The-Hill
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4/2/2012 3:57:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Every logical argument for God does the samething, except the Ontological argurment. Which no more reasonable then saying. Part of the definition of a perfect unicorn is perferction. Since existence is a part of perfection Perfect Unicorns must exist.
KeytarHero
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4/5/2012 8:58:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you're going to argue against an argument, at least get it right.

The Teleological Argument (the argument from design) is as follows:

1) The fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe is due to law, chance, or
design.
2) It is not due to law or chance.
3) Therefore, it is due to design.

Atheists tend rely on emotion than logic to rebut these arguments, and they rely on strawmen.

Now, this is a valid argument. In order to prove it sound, argumentation must be done to support the second premise.

I am planning on debating this on the site soon, after I do a little more research on the second premise.
Alter2Ego
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4/6/2012 1:28:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/28/2012 11:22:52 PM, tvellalott wrote:
This question always bugs me about the intelligent design proponents.

What precise line of reasoning leads from:

The Universe seems designed
...to...
God did it.

It implies that you somehow know that creating a Universe is very difficult, when you don't. It could be very simple for some higher power, like creating a sandwich seems like the act of an omnipotent being to an ant.


ALTER2EGO -to- TVELLALOTT:

And according to your gospel, creating a universe is NOT difficult? Which universe did you create, by the way. Name just one. And while you're doing that, tell us, which universe--to your knowledge--was created by ANY mortal human?

At 3/28/2012 11:22:52 PM, tvellalott wrote:

By coming to this conclusion, you must have ignored mountains of scientific studies, experiments, theories and laws. I mean, we know non-random things happen naturally, because that's what science is all about. I suppose you could try and argue that God set those laws in place, but that is just moving the goalposts.


ALTER2EGO -to- TVELLALOTT:

Mountains of evidence; you say? What evidence? Big Bang THEORY (not fact); Einstein's THEORY (not fact) of Relativity; macroevolution THEORY (not fact), etc.? Your idea of evidence is a long string of theories aka wild speculations that have been going in circles for decades and remain UNPROVEN—which is why they are all chained to the word "theory" like Siamese twins.

BTW: Do you know the meaning of the words "scientific theory"? Do you understand that it's nothing more than a group of hypotheses that can be disproven and that theory is NOT fact?

One other thing: you said there are laws that cause things to fall in place naturally. Do you know the implications of "laws in nature"? I will help you out by giving you a definition.

Laws found in nature, as defined by Webster's New World Dictionary, are:

"a sequence of events that have been observed to occur with UNVARYING UNIFORMITY under the same conditions."

Where did these laws come from? Were they the result of spontaneous events aka accidents aka chance occurrences? If so, how do chance occurrences end up creating precision aka LAW, with no intelligent personage directing the outcome?
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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4/6/2012 1:29:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyway, after hastily coming to the conclusion that it was God, you somehow follow to...

P1) God did it.
P2) This book proclaims that that God is Yahweh.
C) Yahweh did it.

You get from...
The Universe seems designed...
to...
Yahweh did it...

...with nothing but an appeal to ignorance and a book of nonsense, archaic desert fairy tales.


ALTER2EGO -to- TVELLALOTT:

While you're on the topic of "appeal to ignorance," how did human life--and all life, for that matter--get started? It happened by itself? Even if one were to believe the macroevolution MYTH which says "every single form of life that has ever existed evolved from a common ancestor," how did this "common ancestor" come to life--after which, all other creatures evolved from it? In other words, how does life come from non-life?

Finally, if the Bible is nothing but " archaic desert fairy tales," how do you account for almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled Bible prophecies? Some of the prophesies were written centuries before their fulfillment and many of them have been confirmed by archeology and secular.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Alter2Ego
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4/6/2012 1:36:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/6/2012 1:29:20 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:

ALTER2EGO -to- TVELLALOTT:

While you're on the topic of "appeal to ignorance," how did human life--and all life, for that matter--get started? It happened by itself? Even if one were to believe the macroevolution MYTH which says "every single form of life that has ever existed evolved from a common ancestor," how did this "common ancestor" come to life--after which, all other creatures evolved from it? In other words, how does life come from non-life?

Finally, if the Bible is nothing but " archaic desert fairy tales," how do you account for almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled Bible prophecies? Some of the prophesies were written centuries before their fulfillment and many of them have been confirmed by archeology and secular.

I left off the word "history" at the end of my last paragraph. It should read:

"Finally, if the Bible is nothing but " archaic desert fairy tales," how do you account for almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled Bible prophecies? Some of the prophesies were written centuries before their fulfillment and many of them have been confirmed by archeology and secular history."

BTW: Secular history refers to history that is not connected with the Bible.
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
SuburbiaSurvivor
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4/6/2012 1:44:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/29/2012 2:06:52 AM, tvellalott wrote:
We have two big "unanswered" questions, right?

1) How did the Universe begin to exist, with all it's self-governing laws?
2) How did life on Earth begin to exist, with all it's intricacy and nuance?

Well, no-one really knows.

But since everything I've never observed a supernatural occurrence or been provided suitable proof that the supernatural exists, I can only conclude that it doesn't exist. If it did exist, as so many people believe it does, where is the evidence.
It just seems like every single thing that gets pointed to is either an argument for ignorance (we don't know, therefore God) or general ignorance (I don't understand, therefore God).

Lol, your argument against God is an argument from ignorance.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
SuburbiaSurvivor
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4/6/2012 1:46:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/6/2012 1:29:20 AM, Alter2Ego wrote:
Anyway, after hastily coming to the conclusion that it was God, you somehow follow to...

P1) God did it.
P2) This book proclaims that that God is Yahweh.
C) Yahweh did it.

You get from...
The Universe seems designed...
to...
Yahweh did it...

...with nothing but an appeal to ignorance and a book of nonsense, archaic desert fairy tales.


ALTER2EGO -to- TVELLALOTT:

While you're on the topic of "appeal to ignorance," how did human life--and all life, for that matter--get started? It happened by itself? Even if one were to believe the macroevolution MYTH which says "every single form of life that has ever existed evolved from a common ancestor," how did this "common ancestor" come to life--after which, all other creatures evolved from it? In other words, how does life come from non-life?

Finally, if the Bible is nothing but " archaic desert fairy tales," how do you account for almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled Bible prophecies? Some of the prophesies were written centuries before their fulfillment and many of them have been confirmed by archeology and secular.

This.

Ever look into abiogenesis? Ever study how absolutely ridiculous and improbable it is? The more we study in regards to abiogenesis, the more evidence we find to support that it's impossible.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"