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God & Free will

000ike
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3/31/2012 11:38:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
annanicole
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3/31/2012 11:44:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:38:04 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.

"However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey?" <-- there's the incorrect assumption. The spirit didn't decide to do much of anything - the mind did.

Here's your "double bind:

"1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will." Yes, it would be, and

"OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill (No, you're not saying that) but (with) pre-determined spirits." Sure, if humans had "pre-determined Spirits" to begin with.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/31/2012 12:20:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:38:04 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.

Don't forget the fact that God is supposedly all knowing, and wouldn't have a logical reason 'test' the quality of any spirit because he should already know the quality of every spirit.
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?
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000ike
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3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/31/2012 12:32:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

No, because that would make no sense.
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 12:33:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

Why is it a bad thing that we are? I would say its to give us the ability to have free will, but I cant fully answer that.

God did make us to bring glory to him, and to be loved and to love back.

So, I would assume its because he didn't want mindless robots following him. He wanted it to be genuine.
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OberHerr
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3/31/2012 12:33:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:32:00 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

No, because that would make no sense.

You mean, it makes no sense to you.
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"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Lickdafoot
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3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
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3/31/2012 12:36:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:33:17 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

Why is it a bad thing that we are? I would say its to give us the ability to have free will, but I cant fully answer that.

God did make us to bring glory to him, and to be loved and to love back.

So, I would assume its because he didn't want mindless robots following him. He wanted it to be genuine.

You're not thinking objectively. Every time you argue on a religious topic, you work from the presupposition that God and Christianity is correct and you're duty is simply to explain it. No, your duty is to know it's explanation and question it.

If you can't answer for me why we are able to disobey God, then we don't even have the basis on which to argue. Yet, you'll still walk off wholeheartedly believing in this thing.

This is what frustrates me about Christians.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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3/31/2012 12:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL

I think you misread the question. I said why aren't we removed of the option to disobey God?

God's rules are to be unconditionally obeyed correct? Yet we have the option to disobey them. Why doesn't God just remove our ability to disobey them?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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3/31/2012 12:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oh I saw your one in the politics section, so I'll just c/p what I said to here:

It is the difference between having people follow your rules voluntarily or forcing them to obey at the point of a gun.

Ike, if you had children would you want them to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you, or because you force them to?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 12:39:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, how would I argue against it if it were not?

Do you want me to prove that God exists? Cause, no matter what, I won't be able to convince you.

And, HOW can I argue that God gives us free will for certain reasons, if he dosen't ever exist in this thread. Seems like a very biased debate, towards one side.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/31/2012 12:40:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:33:56 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:32:00 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

No, because that would make no sense.

You mean, it makes no sense to you.

No, it makes no sense. If someone acts in a way to increase their own knowledge then they , discover, test, and experiment. If someone wants to increase someone else's knowledge they leave clues, reveal, or teach.

If I handed someone a math exam, it obviously wouldn't be for their benefit. The lessons I taught them and what I revealed would be for their benefit and the test would be for my benefit to learn how well the used to the tools I gave them. However, if I already knew with 100% accuracy how well they would use the tools I gave them and it could be demonstrated in the school, there would be no logical reason to run the exam.

You are confusing experimenting/ testing with revealing/ teaching.
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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000ike
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3/31/2012 12:43:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:39:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
Oh I saw your one in the politics section, so I'll just c/p what I said to here:

It is the difference between having people follow your rules voluntarily or forcing them to obey at the point of a gun.

Ike, if you had children would you want them to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you, or because you force them to?

How is the God-human relationship comparable to the Parent-child relationship?

If we don't even have the option to do evil, then everyone would be happy. Yet, God GIVES us that option. What I'm trying to say, and no one's listening to me, is that God must be testing a quality of our souls in giving us this freedom yet making unbreakable rules.

However, HE is the sole creator and molder of the soul. If an individual does evil, then that's a reflection on his soul, which is of God's doing. So it's God's fault.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lickdafoot
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3/31/2012 12:44:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:39:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL

I think you misread the question. I said why aren't we removed of the option to disobey God?

God's rules are to be unconditionally obeyed correct? Yet we have the option to disobey them. Why doesn't God just remove our ability to disobey them?

If you had a child, would you want him to mindlessly obey you? or would you want them to grow and mature to make decisions on their own?

This is something a lot of parents struggle with and it is the lesson of tough love. You cannot equip a child with strength of character if you make all their decisions for them.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 12:44:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:44:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:39:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL

I think you misread the question. I said why aren't we removed of the option to disobey God?

God's rules are to be unconditionally obeyed correct? Yet we have the option to disobey them. Why doesn't God just remove our ability to disobey them?

If you had a child, would you want him to mindlessly obey you? or would you want them to grow and mature to make decisions on their own?

This is something a lot of parents struggle with and it is the lesson of tough love. You cannot equip a child with strength of character if you make all their decisions for them.

How is the God-human relationship comparable to the Parent-child relationship?

If we don't even have the option to do evil, then everyone would be happy. Yet, God GIVES us that option. What I'm trying to say, and no one's listening to me, is that God must be testing a quality of our souls in giving us this freedom yet making unbreakable rules.

However, HE is the sole creator and molder of the soul. If an individual does evil, then that's a reflection on his soul, which is of God's doing. So it's God's fault.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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3/31/2012 12:50:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:43:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:39:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
Oh I saw your one in the politics section, so I'll just c/p what I said to here:

It is the difference between having people follow your rules voluntarily or forcing them to obey at the point of a gun.

Ike, if you had children would you want them to follow your rules because they genuinely respect you, or because you force them to?

How is the God-human relationship comparable to the Parent-child relationship?

I was trying to go by principle. Replace "child" with "student" and "parent" with "teacher". Basically the question is would you rather be followed out of respect, or force?

If we don't even have the option to do evil, then everyone would be happy.
You think so? Personally, I don't believe that we can truly understand good or happiness until we understand evil and despair. An ideological difference perhaps.

Yet, God GIVES us that option. What I'm trying to say, and no one's listening to me, is that God must be testing a quality of our souls in giving us this freedom yet making unbreakable rules.


However, HE is the sole creator and molder of the soul. If an individual does evil, then that's a reflection on his soul, which is of God's doing. So it's God's fault.

Define soul. If by soul you mean the morals, ethics, and essence of an individual, you would be justified in blaming God if, and only if, you prove that God does in fact set the morals of each individual person...which is a tall order. If by soul you mean the part of a person that lives on past death than I don't see how blaming God applies.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/31/2012 12:52:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?

Once more, you make no sense. The math exam was analogy, and the point stands that testing how well something performs can only have one logical reason, to know how well something performs. No all knowing God would have a logical reason to test how well something performed.
Lickdafoot
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3/31/2012 12:55:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:44:58 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:44:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:39:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL

I think you misread the question. I said why aren't we removed of the option to disobey God?

God's rules are to be unconditionally obeyed correct? Yet we have the option to disobey them. Why doesn't God just remove our ability to disobey them?

If you had a child, would you want him to mindlessly obey you? or would you want them to grow and mature to make decisions on their own?

This is something a lot of parents struggle with and it is the lesson of tough love. You cannot equip a child with strength of character if you make all their decisions for them.

How is the God-human relationship comparable to the Parent-child relationship?

If we don't even have the option to do evil, then everyone would be happy. Yet, God GIVES us that option. What I'm trying to say, and no one's listening to me, is that God must be testing a quality of our souls in giving us this freedom yet making unbreakable rules.

However, HE is the sole creator and molder of the soul. If an individual does evil, then that's a reflection on his soul, which is of God's doing. So it's God's fault.

God didn't make sin. He's benevolent. Evil is the separation from god. Yes, the choice to separate from him. He does allow free will as a gift to us. He does not force us into worshiping him. He allows us to live in sin so that we can rise above it and choose love/glory/him over it. So that we have something better to strive for. He will one day destroy all sin.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
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3/31/2012 12:55:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:50:34 PM, thett3 wrote:

Define soul. If by soul you mean the morals, ethics, and essence of an individual, you would be justified in blaming God if, and only if, you prove that God does in fact set the morals of each individual person...which is a tall order. If by soul you mean the part of a person that lives on past death than I don't see how blaming God applies.

1. God gave us the freedom to do good or evil.
2. We choose to do either good or evil.

Let's say we do evil. What made us do evil? Let's say we do good. What made us do good?

I was making the assumption that only evil souls do evil things....and evil souls are God's creation ( but scratch that).

I want your answer. What makes people do evil?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
thett3
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3/31/2012 12:58:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:52:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?

Once more, you make no sense. The math exam was analogy, and the point stands that testing how well something performs can only have one logical reason, to know how well something performs. No all knowing God would have a logical reason to test how well something performed.

Think of it like a videogame. A video game designer doesn't know what buttons you will click, or paths you will take, ect. But he DOES know exactly what will happen if you choose to take a certain path. Similarly, for matters that aren't part of divine plan (like the crucifixion of Jesus) God knows exactly what will happen if any set of events occurs...I dont really see any good evidence for God truly knowing a set future
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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3/31/2012 1:01:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:55:58 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:50:34 PM, thett3 wrote:

Define soul. If by soul you mean the morals, ethics, and essence of an individual, you would be justified in blaming God if, and only if, you prove that God does in fact set the morals of each individual person...which is a tall order. If by soul you mean the part of a person that lives on past death than I don't see how blaming God applies.

1. God gave us the freedom to do good or evil.
2. We choose to do either good or evil.

Let's say we do evil. What made us do evil? Let's say we do good. What made us do good?

I was making the assumption that only evil souls do evil things....and evil souls are God's creation ( but scratch that).

I want your answer. What makes people do evil?

What makes people do evil? That's a deep question, probably a variety of things. From a strictly theological standpoint, it's probably because those people are tempted by the Devil.

Keep in mind that I think true evil is very very very rare and that few events are completely one sided (as in pure good or pure evil)
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 1:01:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:52:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?

Once more, you make no sense. The math exam was analogy, and the point stands that testing how well something performs can only have one logical reason, to know how well something performs. No all knowing God would have a logical reason to test how well something performed.

And I said it was not for his benefit, but ours, to a degree.

Its for his benefit because he loves us, and wants us to choose to love him, and not be mindless slaves. It's for ours so we can learn, and os that we can choose to love him.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/31/2012 1:01:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 12:44:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:39:10 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:35:19 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:26:48 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:24:27 PM, OberHerr wrote:
@RT Have you ever thought it was for our benefit, not Gods?

Did you give any thought to the OP or are you just trying to find reasons to defend your religion?

Ober, why aren't we removed of the very OPTION to disobey God's laws?

we do have that option but every cause has an effect. our actions have consequences. besides, your question is like saying why don't we have the option to disobey the laws of the universe? the universe must be AWFUL

I think you misread the question. I said why aren't we removed of the option to disobey God?

God's rules are to be unconditionally obeyed correct? Yet we have the option to disobey them. Why doesn't God just remove our ability to disobey them?

If you had a child, would you want him to mindlessly obey you? or would you want them to grow and mature to make decisions on their own?

This is something a lot of parents struggle with and it is the lesson of tough love. You cannot equip a child with strength of character if you make all their decisions for them.

So you are saying it's a good thing that Hitler killed the Jews, because he got to make choices on his own?
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/31/2012 1:04:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 1:01:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:52:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?

Once more, you make no sense. The math exam was analogy, and the point stands that testing how well something performs can only have one logical reason, to know how well something performs. No all knowing God would have a logical reason to test how well something performed.

And I said it was not for his benefit, but ours, to a degree.

Its for his benefit because he loves us, and wants us to choose to love him, and not be mindless slaves. It's for ours so we can learn, and os that we can choose to love him.

It sounds like a bunch of hooey to me, but whatever, it's your religion.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2012 1:04:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 1:01:08 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:55:58 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:50:34 PM, thett3 wrote:

Define soul. If by soul you mean the morals, ethics, and essence of an individual, you would be justified in blaming God if, and only if, you prove that God does in fact set the morals of each individual person...which is a tall order. If by soul you mean the part of a person that lives on past death than I don't see how blaming God applies.

1. God gave us the freedom to do good or evil.
2. We choose to do either good or evil.

Let's say we do evil. What made us do evil? Let's say we do good. What made us do good?

I was making the assumption that only evil souls do evil things....and evil souls are God's creation ( but scratch that).

I want your answer. What makes people do evil?

What makes people do evil? That's a deep question, probably a variety of things. From a strictly theological standpoint, it's probably because those people are tempted by the Devil.

Keep in mind that I think true evil is very very very rare and that few events are completely one sided (as in pure good or pure evil)

So God intentionally created creatures that are susceptible to temptation...and then punishes them when that susceptible nature leads them to evil?

So there are 2 objects of blame. 1 is the devil, the other is human nature. In what part of this can we blame the human himself?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OberHerr
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3/31/2012 1:05:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 1:04:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 1:01:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:52:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/31/2012 12:42:01 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So, one can never learn anything, outside of a controlled test, where you have time to study? Never ever?

Once more, you make no sense. The math exam was analogy, and the point stands that testing how well something performs can only have one logical reason, to know how well something performs. No all knowing God would have a logical reason to test how well something performed.

And I said it was not for his benefit, but ours, to a degree.

Its for his benefit because he loves us, and wants us to choose to love him, and not be mindless slaves. It's for ours so we can learn, and os that we can choose to love him.

It sounds like a bunch of hooey to me, but whatever, it's your religion.

So, basically, you can't counter my argument, and your insulting me because of it?

Ok.
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baggins
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3/31/2012 1:08:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 3/31/2012 11:38:04 AM, 000ike wrote:
Suppose that all human beings do have free will.

Why would God give rules of moral behavior that are never to be broken,....but also give mankind the freedom to break it?

Obviously he's testing a quality of each spirit. Those who possess this quality God seeks will obey his rules despite their physical freedom not to. Those who possess a "bad" quality will disobey those laws.

However, God places himself in a double bind. Is he not the one that GAVE us that quality of the spirit that made us choose to obey or disobey? So, we reach two conclusions. 1) it's God's fault for making creatures with no free will. OR 2) It's God's fault for making creatures with freewill but pre-determined spirits.

Either way,...it's God's fault. Sounds like predestination to me.

Or maybe the 'quality' is defined by the deeds we choose. The thing God gave us is the ability to decide (up to a very limited extent).
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.