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God: The Imaginary Puppeteer

GeoLaureate8
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4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life. Then there is no question of any enlightenment. Then there is no question of there being any Gautam the Buddha, because there is no freedom at all. He pulls the strings, you dance; he pulls the strings, you cry; he pulls the strings, you start murders, suicide, war. You are just a puppet and he is the puppeteer. 

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

"That is the basic implication of Friedrich Nietzsche's statement: God is dead, therefore man is free. 

"No theologian, no founder of religions thought about this, that if you accept God as the creator, you are destroying the whole dignity of consciousness, of freedom, of love. You are taking all responsibility from man, and you are taking all his freedom away. You are reducing the whole of existence to just the whim of a strange fellow called God."

-- Osho (Eastern philosopher/sage)

I believe this is sonething believers fail to realize. They always try to spin it as if the Atheist viewpoint is the bleak and depressing one, but on the contrary, it's the Theist worldview that has this problem.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 3:10:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is this the Theist response to Theism being exposed? I figured there would be no rebuttal from those stuck in psychic dictatorship.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/2/2012 3:17:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
How does the non-existence of God make us free? Are we not still the puppets of the universe?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 3:31:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:17:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
How does the non-existence of God make us free? Are we not still the puppets of the universe?

You bring up an interesting concern. But as Alan Watts and Carl Sagan rightly said:

"We do not come into into this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves," the Universe "peoples." Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total Universe."
-- Alan Watts

"The cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
-- Carl Sagan

"We've begun at last, to wonder about our origins. Star stuff contemplating the stars."
-- Carl Sagan

"The exploration of the cosmos is a voyage of self discovery."
-- Carl Sagan

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 3:47:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:34:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't Theists are going to understand that in the slightest.

Well that's a separate, but related topic. They simply need to understand that Theism is not compatible with freedom despite them not being able to see why were not puppets of the Universe.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
baggins
Posts: 855
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4/2/2012 9:09:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life. Then there is no question of any enlightenment. Then there is no question of there being any Gautam the Buddha, because there is no freedom at all. He pulls the strings, you dance; he pulls the strings, you cry; he pulls the strings, you start murders, suicide, war. You are just a puppet and he is the puppeteer. 

If all of us are created by God, then all of us are equal to each other. That is why dictatorship is undesirable.

On other hand, there is little doubt that God is our Lord. All of us are just Abdullah (or Slaves of Allah). It is a matter of fact and there is nothing demeaning about it. In fact as great Indian poet and philosopher Iqbal pointed out, it is one slavery which makes us free in true sense.

Wahi Sajdah hai Laiq-e-ehtimam,
Ki jis se ho har sajda tujh par haram.

(The only prostration worth performing / Which precludes all other prostrations)

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

For most practical purpose we are puppets. We have no control over how our body parts work. We cannot control the working of our heart, our stomach, or any of the tissues or cells of our body. Most of the world is not in our control

However, at a certain level we have been given some limited free will. Up to that extent we are responsible and accountable for our deeds.

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

"That is the basic implication of Friedrich Nietzsche's statement: God is dead, therefore man is free. 

Turns out Nietzsche is dead.

"No theologian, no founder of religions thought about this, that if you accept God as the creator, you are destroying the whole dignity of consciousness, of freedom, of love. You are taking all responsibility from man, and you are taking all his freedom away. You are reducing the whole of existence to just the whim of a strange fellow called God."

-- Osho (Eastern philosopher/sage)

I believe this is sonething believers fail to realize. They always try to spin it as if the Atheist viewpoint is the bleak and depressing one, but on the contrary, it's the Theist worldview that has this problem.

If there is not God, humanity is not free. Rather humanity is freak. And some freak event will wipe it out. If some one finds it liberating, good for them. However if God does not exist, what they find is irrelevant, just like their existence.

In reality, we are not freaks. And our lives does have meaning. God exists.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/2/2012 9:17:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 9:09:10 AM, baggins wrote:
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life. Then there is no question of any enlightenment. Then there is no question of there being any Gautam the Buddha, because there is no freedom at all. He pulls the strings, you dance; he pulls the strings, you cry; he pulls the strings, you start murders, suicide, war. You are just a puppet and he is the puppeteer. 

If all of us are created by God, then all of us are equal to each other. That is why dictatorship is undesirable.

On other hand, there is little doubt that God is our Lord. All of us are just Abdullah (or Slaves of Allah). It is a matter of fact and there is nothing demeaning about it. In fact as great Indian poet and philosopher Iqbal pointed out, it is one slavery which makes us free in true sense.

Wahi Sajdah hai Laiq-e-ehtimam,
Ki jis se ho har sajda tujh par haram.

(The only prostration worth performing / Which precludes all other prostrations)


I'd say being a slave is demeaning. Which is why Nietzsche made the following claim that is...

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

"That is the basic implication of Friedrich Nietzsche's statement: God is dead, therefore man is free. 

Turns out Nietzsche is dead.

Which was the rebuttal to his ideas for a very long time, due to the lack of desire to take them seriously, because of the political climate fearing he was right. The point is something that not just many agree to, but is very observable. God has no influence on politics any more, and society as a whole benefited from this.

"No theologian, no founder of religions thought about this, that if you accept God as the creator, you are destroying the whole dignity of consciousness, of freedom, of love. You are taking all responsibility from man, and you are taking all his freedom away. You are reducing the whole of existence to just the whim of a strange fellow called God."

-- Osho (Eastern philosopher/sage)

I believe this is sonething believers fail to realize. They always try to spin it as if the Atheist viewpoint is the bleak and depressing one, but on the contrary, it's the Theist worldview that has this problem.

If there is not God, humanity is not free. Rather humanity is freak. And some freak event will wipe it out. If some one finds it liberating, good for them. However if God does not exist, what they find is irrelevant, just like their existence.

In reality, we are not freaks. And our lives does have meaning. God exists.

If there is no God, we have our own freedom, and we have the ability to do as we wish. We have the ability to set our own morals, consequences, laws, and all other things. We have an excessive freedom of which can be destructive, or beautiful. If God exists, then you imply we have to worship him, and that is the meaning of life. I'd say that is a shallow meaning of life. And when we die, our meaning of life disappears. What's the meaning of life? What we make of it. You can spend your life worshipping a God, existent or no, and that is something we all have the freedom to do. We can choose to act in any way we like, and our freedoms let us lay our stake in the world.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
baggins
Posts: 855
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4/2/2012 9:42:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 9:17:59 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
If there is no God, we have our own freedom, and we have the ability to do as we wish. We have the ability to set our own morals, consequences, laws, and all other things. We have an excessive freedom of which can be destructive, or beautiful. If God exists, then you imply we have to worship him, and that is the meaning of life. I'd say that is a shallow meaning of life. And when we die, our meaning of life disappears. What's the meaning of life? What we make of it. You can spend your life worshipping a God, existent or no, and that is something we all have the freedom to do. We can choose to act in any way we like, and our freedoms let us lay our stake in the world.

We seem to agree that we have limited ability to do what we want to do until our death. The question is why? It is obvious that we have done nothing to deserve such freedom. I think it is obvious that we should think about this question. And if our life has been granted to us by God, it is incumbent that we worship God and pay our thanks.

Why do you think that this would be a shallow meaning of life?

...And when we die, our meaning of life disappears...

As per the religion, it does not. After death we return to God.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/2/2012 9:58:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life. Then there is no question of any enlightenment. Then there is no question of there being any Gautam the Buddha, because there is no freedom at all. He pulls the strings, you dance; he pulls the strings, you cry; he pulls the strings, you start murders, suicide, war. You are just a puppet and he is the puppeteer. 

At least in Christian theism they do not believe that God has every moment planned out. Christians believe that humans have free will and this is why there are murders ect.

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

We know that good and bed do exist and that we do have the freedom to act, but if God gives us free will than what is the contradiction?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 12:16:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 9:58:15 AM, stubs wrote:
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:


"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life. Then there is no question of any enlightenment. Then there is no question of there being any Gautam the Buddha, because there is no freedom at all. He pulls the strings, you dance; he pulls the strings, you cry; he pulls the strings, you start murders, suicide, war. You are just a puppet and he is the puppeteer. 

At least in Christian theism they do not believe that God has every moment planned out. Christians believe that humans have free will and this is why there are murders ect.

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

We know that good and bed do exist and that we do have the freedom to act, but if God gives us free will than what is the contradiction?

That is the whole point of the OP. We know Theists claim that God gave them free will, but what is presented in the OP is an argument refuting this very notion. Humans combined with a Creator God leaves no room for freedom.

The Buddha further explains why:

"If God be the maker, all living things should have silently to submit to their maker's power. They would be like vessels formed by the potter's hand. If the world had been made by God there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or sin; for both pure and impure deeds must come from him. If not, there would be another cause beside him, and he would not be the self-existent one. Thus, you see, the thought of God is overthrown."

-- The Buddha [Culla Vagga 6:2]

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/2/2012 1:00:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

The Buddha further explains why:

"If God be the maker, all living things should have silently to submit to their maker's power. They would be like vessels formed by the potter's hand. If the world had been made by God there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or sin; for both pure and impure deeds must come from him. If not, there would be another cause beside him, and he would not be the self-existent one. Thus, you see, the thought of God is overthrown."

-- The Buddha [Culla Vagga 6:2]

Thank you for your insight.

"If the world had been made by God there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or sin; for both pure and impure deeds must come from him"

There is no reason to suggest that if God exist then bad things shouldn't exist. This is the simple problem of evil that has never been able to disprove the existence of God.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? . . . . Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist—in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless—I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality—namely my idea of justice—was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."
C.S Lewis
Mirza
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4/2/2012 1:33:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The summary of what you and your dear philosophers said is: If God exists, there is no free will. There's no other conclusion to draw from what you said. So I assume you'd be willing to defend the notion that God and free will are incompatible.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 1:40:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 1:00:22 PM, stubs wrote:
The Buddha further explains why:

"If God be the maker, all living things should have silently to submit to their maker's power. They would be like vessels formed by the potter's hand. If the world had been made by God there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or sin; for both pure and impure deeds must come from him. If not, there would be another cause beside him, and he would not be the self-existent one. Thus, you see, the thought of God is overthrown."

-- The Buddha [Culla Vagga 6:2]

Thank you for your insight.

"If the world had been made by God there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or sin; for both pure and impure deeds must come from him"

There is no reason to suggest that if God exist then bad things shouldn't exist. This is the simple problem of evil that has never been able to disprove the existence of God.

That is not the case. This is a much more sophisticated argument than the basic problem of evil and rests on philosophic principles.

The Buddha is not saying that if God exists, then bad things shouldn't happen. He is saying that all things, both pure and impure deeds, come from him. That means that God is responsible for all evil, impure deeds. But this contradicts his all good nature. So knowing that the Theist rejects that notion, the Buddha retorts, that if evil impure deeds do not come from God, then there is another cause besides him, thus he is not the self-existent one. This is the philosophic principle which is absent from the basic understanding of the argument from evil.

God is the self-existent one, he is the only non-contingent being from which all things stem, but the Buddha's argument displays that such being is not possible given that evil implies another cause separate from him and out of his control.

C.S. Lewis's argument does not address the Buddha's argument at all. Lewis was questioning our ability to make judgements as to what's good and bad, just and unjust. But the Buddha's argument doesn't rest on whether can know what is just or not, it rests on accepting that evil exists, injustice exists.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
stubs
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4/2/2012 1:53:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That is not the case. This is a much more sophisticated argument than the basic problem of evil and rests on philosophic principles.

The Buddha is not saying that if God exists, then bad things shouldn't happen. He is saying that all things, both pure and impure deeds, come from him. That means that God is responsible for all evil, impure deeds. But this contradicts his all good nature. So knowing that the Theist rejects that notion, the Buddha retorts, that if evil impure deeds do not come from God, then there is another cause besides him, thus he is not the self-existent one. This is the philosophic principle which is absent from the basic understanding of the argument from evil.

God is the self-existent one, he is the only non-contingent being from which all things stem, but the Buddha's argument displays that such being is not possible given that evil implies another cause separate from him and out of his control.

C.S. Lewis's argument does not address the Buddha's argument at all. Lewis was questioning our ability to make judgements as to what's good and bad, just and unjust. But the Buddha's argument doesn't rest on whether can know what is just or not, it rests on accepting that evil exists, injustice exists.


"He is saying that all things, both pure and impure deeds, come from him. That means that God is responsible for all evil, impure deeds. But this contradicts his all good nature."
There is no reason to believe that evil deeds come from him. Just because he is all powerful does not mean any evil deed done is his working.

"[...]It rests on accepting that evil exists, injustice exists."
Nearly everyone agrees evil exist, but there is not logical reason or syllogism to show that if evil exists then God does not exist or God causes the evil.
GeoLaureate8
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4/2/2012 2:12:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 1:53:46 PM, stubs wrote:
That is not the case. This is a much more sophisticated argument than the basic problem of evil and rests on philosophic principles.

The Buddha is not saying that if God exists, then bad things shouldn't happen. He is saying that all things, both pure and impure deeds, come from him. That means that God is responsible for all evil, impure deeds. But this contradicts his all good nature. So knowing that the Theist rejects that notion, the Buddha retorts, that if evil impure deeds do not come from God, then there is another cause besides him, thus he is not the self-existent one. This is the philosophic principle which is absent from the basic understanding of the argument from evil.

God is the self-existent one, he is the only non-contingent being from which all things stem, but the Buddha's argument displays that such being is not possible given that evil implies another cause separate from him and out of his control.

C.S. Lewis's argument does not address the Buddha's argument at all. Lewis was questioning our ability to make judgements as to what's good and bad, just and unjust. But the Buddha's argument doesn't rest on whether can know what is just or not, it rests on accepting that evil exists, injustice exists.


"He is saying that all things, both pure and impure deeds, come from him. That means that God is responsible for all evil, impure deeds. But this contradicts his all good nature."
There is no reason to believe that evil deeds come from him. Just because he is all powerful does not mean any evil deed done is his working.

Yes, and the Buddha predicted you would say that so he said:

"for both pure and impure deeds must come from him. If not, there would be another cause beside him, and he would not be the self-existent one. Thus, you see, the thought of God is overthrown."

He accounted for the fact that you don't agree that evil comes from God. So he said, if you don't think evil comes from God then you think it comes from another agent that is powerful enough and successful at contradicting his will.

"[...]It rests on accepting that evil exists, injustice exists."
Nearly everyone agrees evil exist, but there is not logical reason or syllogism to show that if evil exists then God does not exist or God causes the evil.

Let me put it simply. Either evil comes from God, thus rendering him not benevolent or evil does not come from God rendering him not self-exitent. Either trait, not omnibenevolent or not self-existent means God does not exist.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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4/2/2012 2:20:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

I am an agnostic who leans in the atheist direction however there are some things I disagree with here.

Just because you are created by someone else and that person has the power to destroy you at any time does not mean you don't have your own soul. I just don't see how that follows.

You are only a puppet if God is manipulating your decisions or is making you make decisions. I don't see how this is the case. Just because God has the ability to control us does not mean he acts on that ability.

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life.

Well, he did give us everything we have. We certainly have the choice of whether not to follow his rules. If so, he has the right to take away what he gave to you.

I don't think dictator is the right word. Parent would be a better one.

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

We do have the ability to make our own choices don't we? We do it every day. So we are responsible for our actions.

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

Or God exists and allows us freedom.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/2/2012 3:09:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 2:20:01 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

I am an agnostic who leans in the atheist direction however there are some things I disagree with here.

Just because you are created by someone else and that person has the power to destroy you at any time does not mean you don't have your own soul. I just don't see how that follows.

You are only a puppet if God is manipulating your decisions or is making you make decisions. I don't see how this is the case. Just because God has the ability to control us does not mean he acts on that ability.

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life.

Well, he did give us everything we have. We certainly have the choice of whether not to follow his rules. If so, he has the right to take away what he gave to you.

I don't think dictator is the right word. Parent would be a better one.

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

We do have the ability to make our own choices don't we? We do it every day. So we are responsible for our actions.

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

Or God exists and allows us freedom.

"I don't think dictator is the right word. Parent would be a better one."

Your parents never told you what to do (dictate)? You must have had it easy as a child lol

Anyway you know what they say, "absolute power, corrupts absolutely"...If this is true and God exists, it's safe to say he's one corrupt SOB!
Dan4reason
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4/2/2012 3:40:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 3:09:08 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 2:20:01 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 4/1/2012 2:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"All the religions believe that God created the world and also mankind. But if you are created by someone, you are only a puppet, you don't have your own soul. And if you are created by somebody, he can uncreate you any moment. He neither asked you whether you wanted to be created, nor is he going to ask you: "Do you want to be uncreated?"

I am an agnostic who leans in the atheist direction however there are some things I disagree with here.

Just because you are created by someone else and that person has the power to destroy you at any time does not mean you don't have your own soul. I just don't see how that follows.

You are only a puppet if God is manipulating your decisions or is making you make decisions. I don't see how this is the case. Just because God has the ability to control us does not mean he acts on that ability.

"God is the greatest dictator, if you accept the fiction that he created the world and also created mankind. If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life.

Well, he did give us everything we have. We certainly have the choice of whether not to follow his rules. If so, he has the right to take away what he gave to you.

I don't think dictator is the right word. Parent would be a better one.

"Then there is no question of sin or virtue, no question of sinners and saints. Nothing is good and nothing is bad, because you are only a puppet. A puppet cannot be responsible for its actions. Responsibility belongs to someone who has the freedom to act. 

We do have the ability to make our own choices don't we? We do it every day. So we are responsible for our actions.

Either God can exist or freedom, both cannot exist together.

Or God exists and allows us freedom.

"I don't think dictator is the right word. Parent would be a better one."

Your parents never told you what to do (dictate)? You must have had it easy as a child lol

I wish.

Parents are actually sort of dictators but their role is a little bit different than a dictator. They concentrate more of their time to help you grow and that is actually the reason for their rules. If we are the children of God, then it is no surprise that God will give us rules for our own good.

Anyway you know what they say, "absolute power, corrupts absolutely"...If this is true and God exists, it's safe to say he's one corrupt SOB!

Absolute power corrupts absolutely only if you are corruptible. God is not.
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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4/2/2012 7:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It doesn't logically follow that because we were created by God our actions our determined by him.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/2/2012 7:50:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 7:31:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
It doesn't logically follow that because we were created by God our actions our determined by him.

Read the OP again:

"If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life."

Why are all the strings in his hands? Because he's Omnipotent. All powerful and power over everything.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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4/2/2012 9:22:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/2/2012 7:50:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/2/2012 7:31:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
It doesn't logically follow that because we were created by God our actions our determined by him.

Read the OP again:

"If God is a reality, then man is a slave, a puppet. All the strings are in his hands, even your life."

Why are all the strings in his hands? Because he's Omnipotent. All powerful and power over everything.

There is a difference between power and action. Just because you are able to do something does not mean you are going to do it.

So just because God is able to control us does not mean he will.