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Is it moral to kill when a cure options is av

GreatestIam
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4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person. In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Regards
DL
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/3/2012 6:55:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person. In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Regards
DL

**Theist Mode**

"Who are you to question the mind of God? You are a limited minded creation, if he does something it's for a valid reason whether you see it or not."

Anyway the OP is right, if God deems a doer of act X "immoral", and commits an act which is X, then by his own standard he is immoral. If God is not immoral yet he committed an act with is X, then it logically follows that a doer of X cannot be immoral simply due to committing act X.

Also, the logic of "You cannot understand the mind of a doer of act X, therefore, act X is not immoral" cannot be justified by by the premise that that the doer of act X created morality, because he also created immorality (I don't see how it could be justified at all to be honest). For all we know, what we call morality is really immoral to God, and what we call immoral may be moral to God and The Bible was lies due to deception being in God's nature. Also, the logic of "You cannot understand the mind of a doer of act X, therefore, act X is not immoral" would have to apply to humans as well if applied to God considering it's objective if God exists, and of course this would just be a set up for disaster.

If God doesn't "practice what he preaches" then he is not worthy of worship and is immoral by his own standards, if people worship him out of fear then they are slaves. Not to God, but to the people who want them to believe God exists (because in my opinion, God doesn't exist).
KILLUMINATI
Posts: 10
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4/3/2012 8:24:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person. In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Regards
DL

God can't sin so God can't kill
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/3/2012 8:41:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Do we not condemn millions of termites to their death each day? Who are we to have the right to do such a thing?
He has every right to do this; we cannot relate, we have only the rights he's given us.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

yes i can, when you are a perfect God, you can do those things and make those judgements. Oh, yes, that right.. we'll never be that - Answer: we cannot ever make a decision like that justly. (hence why the only justified killings commited in the bible were direct commands of God)

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

In the OT, yes. He set a firm example of his Just righteousness during their days(greatful to not have been around then)
I understand to all of us; death sucks. Friends, family, etc.. it never feels good to know we've lost someone.
But for us believers, there is always that hope, that they are now in absolute bliss - away from fear and pain. Not simply oblivion, but extacy.

Death is over with quick(even in a full life) - if you value this life over the next, death is the worst.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

He certainly does venerate it - so much that he grants it eternally. Once again you are still confining your understanding to this very short life we all have.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person.

Key phrase. yes, because we are all equal, and not one person is more righteous than the other.. Only God can make those decisions justly.

In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Not a double standard.

If you kill a person whose broke into your home, took a sh*t on your son while he slept, then attempted to assault your wife - it would be a pretty normal reaction.

God is the owner of this house(universe), we are the people violating his rules. Just because we ignore the reality of it, doesn't mean he will too.. We don't like God, and we don't like his ways, and are completely irritated by his so-called followers.

But what does this have to do with him being real or just?

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Absolutely.

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Without God there are no morals. None that are absolute any ways.

Regards
DL
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/3/2012 8:45:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 8:24:54 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
At 4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person. In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Regards
DL

God can't sin so God can't kill

"Thou shalt not kill" - (Exodus 20:13)

According to The Bible: Killing is a sin.

"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. - (Exodus 12:29-30)

According to The Bible: God killed.

Argument

Assuming The bible is correct for the sake of argument:

P1: Killing is a sin
P2: God killed
P3: God sinned
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/3/2012 9:05:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 8:41:18 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/3/2012 4:39:13 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Is it moral to kill when a cure options is available?

It is said that God can do whatever he likes. He is after all, God. He created everything and can destroy it at a whim if he chooses to do so. I do not believe this but will grant it as a truth for this O P.

Do we not condemn millions of termites to their death each day? Who are we to have the right to do such a thing?
He has every right to do this; we cannot relate, we have only the rights he's given us.

Given that God can kill or cure, and given that we are to emulate, follow and try to be like him; it would seem that we too are to believe that sometimes it is better to kill than cure. I cannot think of any good situation to do this but that is just me. Perhaps you can.

yes i can, when you are a perfect God, you can do those things and make those judgements. Oh, yes, that right.. we'll never be that - Answer: we cannot ever make a decision like that justly. (hence why the only justified killings commited in the bible were direct commands of God)

Scriptures show God killing many or having men kill many. Scriptures show God curing on a few occasions but killing seems to be his preferred method.

In the OT, yes. He set a firm example of his Just righteousness during their days(greatful to not have been around then)
I understand to all of us; death sucks. Friends, family, etc.. it never feels good to know we've lost someone.
But for us believers, there is always that hope, that they are now in absolute bliss - away from fear and pain. Not simply oblivion, but extacy.

Death is over with quick(even in a full life) - if you value this life over the next, death is the worst.

Life, be it from God or nature, should be venerated. God does not seem to venerate human life even as he claims man to be his most precious and loved creation and even placing us above the angels. This indicates that he should venerate our lives yet it does not seem to.

He certainly does venerate it - so much that he grants it eternally. Once again you are still confining your understanding to this very short life we all have.

In our human world, if a doctor who could cure his patient decided to kill him, he would be jailed and considered an evil person.

Key phrase. yes, because we are all equal, and not one person is more righteous than the other.. Only God can make those decisions justly.

In the believer world, a God who could cure and decides to kill is considered good and praised for his killing. A double standard. I hope that we will all agree that for a human to kill, when a cure option is available, is evil and immoral. If you do not; please do not reply.

Not a double standard.

If you kill a person whose broke into your home, took a sh*t on your son while he slept, then attempted to assault your wife - it would be a pretty normal reaction.

God is the owner of this house(universe), we are the people violating his rules. Just because we ignore the reality of it, doesn't mean he will too.. We don't like God, and we don't like his ways, and are completely irritated by his so-called followers.

But what does this have to do with him being real or just?

Is it moral for God to kill when a cure options is available?

Absolutely.

Does your God need to have good morals or does it matter?

Without God there are no morals. None that are absolute any ways.

Regards
DL

"Do we not condemn millions of termites to their death each day?"

The distinction (for the sake of value placement) must be made between:

(i) Naturally conscious life
(ii) Naturally non-conscious life

The problem with your analogy is you are putting the termites in a category that doesn't apply to us, because we apparently share the same attribute (consciousness) as God.

"when you are a perfect God, you can do those things and make those judgements."

You still didn't describe a situation where the killing would be justified like he asked, you simply just a asserted a situation would be justified simply because God willed it. Why would God will death over cure though? To admit that God would want death over cure your behalf, paints a grim looking picture of the God theists claim is so worthy of worship.

"In the OT, yes. He set a firm example of his Just righteousness during their days(greatful to not have been around then)
I understand to all of us; death sucks. Friends, family, etc.. it never feels good to know we've lost someone.
But for us believers, there is always that hope, that they are now in absolute bliss - away from fear and pain. Not simply oblivion, but extacy.

Death is over with quick(even in a full life) - if you value this life over the next, death is the worst."


Why would God judge people based on cultural times if he was aware that cultural times are what effects behavior? That doesn't seem very just.

Also, isn't it convenient that the only justice left for this hypothetical being to possibly give is after we die (the only time when we are unable to verify this afterlife claim to the rest of the living). It's clear how skepticism would arise from comments such as yours.

"He certainly does venerate it - so much that he grants it eternally. Once again you are still confining your understanding to this very short life we all have."

You are bare asserting an afterlife with no reasoning.

"Key phrase. yes, because we are all equal, and not one person is more righteous than the other.. Only God can make those decisions justly"

William Lane Craig defines God as a person, would you agree?

"If you kill a person whose broke into your home, took a sh*t on your son while he slept, then attempted to assault your wife - it would be a pretty normal reaction. God is the owner of this house(universe), we are the people violating his rules. Just because we ignore the reality of it, doesn't mean he will too.. We don't like God, and we don't like his ways, and are completely irritated by his so-called followers."

What makes ignoring the reality more likely than the reality you perceiving, not existing?

"Without God there are no morals. None that are absolute any ways."

Morals aren't absolute.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/4/2012 1:49:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 9:05:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"Do we not condemn millions of termites to their death each day?"

The distinction (for the sake of value placement) must be made between:

(i) Naturally conscious life
(ii) Naturally non-conscious life

The problem with your analogy is you are putting the termites in a category that doesn't apply to us, because we apparently share the same attribute (consciousness) as God.

Who are we to determine the placement of value on any life? Biblically we are set in this position by God, as stewards of the earth. We have the power/authority to deem a mite to death by the millions(baby termites and all) but an infinite and all righteous God cannot possibly have a reason and justification for why us Man-mites must die instead of be mortally healded?

Your distinction is very easy transformed to a more accurate anaology; when dealing with Man and God:
(1) Righteous
(2) Unrighteous

Sharing attributes has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of Gods judgements - we are termites with personalities to him. It applies to us.


"when you are a perfect God, you can do those things and make those judgements."

You still didn't describe a situation where the killing would be justified like he asked, you simply just a asserted a situation would be justified simply because God willed it. Why would God will death over cure though? To admit that God would want death over cure your behalf, paints a grim looking picture of the God theists claim is so worthy of worship.

What you 'still' don't understand, is that if he exists and is the God portrayed in the bible - it doesn't matter whether or not you think he is worthy of worship.. we are the pots and he is the potter. He is not like us - he is Holy and we are f*cked.. He better than us, he is all important, and our lives only mean what he wants them too.. grim or sadistic: he will still return and not show an ounce of mercy to those who've rejected him. You can't fight it, you won't even try too..

I have a ton of reasons why he would choose death over cures - but none of them would be certain. All i know is, if he isn't real, then death and sickness has no meaning; it is neither good or bad.. it simply is.

"In the OT, yes. He set a firm example of his Just righteousness during their days(greatful to not have been around then)
I understand to all of us; death sucks. Friends, family, etc.. it never feels good to know we've lost someone.
But for us believers, there is always that hope, that they are now in absolute bliss - away from fear and pain. Not simply oblivion, but extacy.

Death is over with quick(even in a full life) - if you value this life over the next, death is the worst."


Why would God judge people based on cultural times if he was aware that cultural times are what effects behavior? That doesn't seem very just.

What does your idea of just even matter? and who said he was judging them based on 'cultural times'??

Also, isn't it convenient that the only justice left for this hypothetical being to possibly give is after we die (the only time when we are unable to verify this afterlife claim to the rest of the living). It's clear how skepticism would arise from comments such as yours.

It is. I don't get why you think you are owed all these explanations and proofs - like God needs to do a little 2-step for you.

The thing is, he only reveals himself to whom he wants. He's revealed himself to me.. so i don't need anymore proof. You keep saying WE, but this WE doesn't included at least 1 billion people world wide.

Skepticism can arise all day, and it doesn't mean a thing.. You rely on yourself, and the things of the world to bring you comfort and solidarity. So does every other religion in the world - except for Christianity.

Something inspired by man, sounds exactly the same - WE CAN DO IT!! YOU CAN DO IT!! JUST TRY YOUR BEST!! HAPPINESS IS THE DaALI F*CKN LAMA!

Only Christianity says - you are sh*t, you can't do sh*t, there is a God and he is offended by al your sh*t, and unless you are given his pardon(completely undeserved) you're in some deep sh*t.

"He certainly does venerate it - so much that he grants it eternally. Once again you are still confining your understanding to this very short life we all have."

You are bare asserting an afterlife with no reasoning.

So? you are bare asserting there isn't an afterlife with not reasoning.. and what?

"Key phrase. yes, because we are all equal, and not one person is more righteous than the other.. Only God can make those decisions justly"

William Lane Craig defines God as a person, would you agree?

He's 3 persons, but not on the same level as us. He's a Divine being, we are Human beings. both are persons, but 1 is righteous and the other is not.

"If you kill a person whose broke into your home, took a sh*t on your son while he slept, then attempted to assault your wife - it would be a pretty normal reaction. God is the owner of this house(universe), we are the people violating his rules. Just because we ignore the reality of it, doesn't mean he will too.. We don't like God, and we don't like his ways, and are completely irritated by his so-called followers."

What makes ignoring the reality more likely than the reality you perceiving, not existing?

"Without God there are no morals. None that are absolute any ways."

Morals aren't absolute.

No morals = no argument.

If morality is subjective/relative, then the subjectiveness and relativeness is also, subjective and relative, which means its sometimes absolute which contradicts the entire contention of relative morality.

If morals are not absolute then everything you disagree about concerning the Christians God, is irrelevant and not even worth mentioning, because it could still be right.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/4/2012 3:45:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Paradox_7

Who are we to determine the placement of value on any life?

So as a human being, do you not place value on the life you believe God to have? Have you never killed an insect? If you have killed an insect, do you look at yourself as a murderer because you have no right to judge the value of life?

"Biblically we are set in this position by God, as stewards of the earth. We have the power/authority to deem a mite to death by the millions(baby termites and all) but an infinite and all righteous God cannot possibly have a reason and justification for why us Man-mites must die instead of be mortally healded?"

I do not see The Bible as a book which has very much valuable information about objective existence within it, so what the book says doesn't appeal to me.

"Your distinction is very easy transformed to a more accurate anaology; when dealing with Man and God:
(1) Righteous
(2) Unrighteous

Sharing attributes has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of Gods judgements - we are termites with personalities to him. It applies to us."


If you were lonely, would you create termites to have personal relationships with? No, you would try to make something similar to yourself (even The Bible says man was created in his image). If God created us because he was lonely and wanted to have relationships with us, he wouldn't put us on the level of termites so your analogy doesn't really fit.

"What you 'still' don't understand, is that if he exists and is the God portrayed in the bible - it doesn't matter whether or not you think he is worthy of worship.. we are the pots and he is the potter."

We don't know he exists though, so if I'm going to waste my time worshiping an imaginary friend then it better be worth it.

"He is not like us - he is Holy and we are f*cked.. He better than us, he is all important, and our lives only mean what he wants them too.. grim or sadistic: he will still return and not show an ounce of mercy to those who've rejected him. You can't fight it, you won't even try too.."

Bare Assertion. Also, if God didn't want us to "reject" him he should have proved he existed. Tough luck for him :)

"I have a ton of reasons why he would choose death over cures - but none of them would be certain. All i know is, if he isn't real, then death and sickness has no meaning; it is neither good or bad.. it simply is."

I don't care if it's certain, I only care if it's logical. Why would God kill instead of cure? If it has to do with population control or something, why did he create so many of us? Is this God moronic?

"What does your idea of just even matter?"

What does your idea that my idea doesn't matter, matter? In all reality, what humans think and feel matters.

"I don't get why you think you are owed all these explanations and proofs - like God needs to do a little 2-step for you."

If I'm expected to believe something exists, I'm owed explanations and proofs. Anyone who believes something without explanations/ evidence is a gullible fool... It's clear where you stand (hence, why you believe in God).

"The thing is, he only reveals himself to whom he wants. He's revealed himself to me.. so i don't need anymore proof. You keep saying WE, but this WE doesn't included at least 1 billion people world wide."

People who have had hallucinations and misfirings of neurons in their brain doesn't = People who have had God revealed to them. Countless people claim to have been abducted by aliens and seen Big Foot, does this mean that every crazy experience someone had, was actually interpreted correctly?

You haven't presented one good argument, I'm not convinced.

Skepticism can arise all day, and it doesn't mean a thing.. You rely on yourself, and the things of the world to bring you comfort and solidarity. So does every other religion in the world - except for Christianity.

Skepticism means everything when it comes to gaining knowledge, imagine if people weren't skeptical about the Earth being flat... The fact you don't adhere to this line of reasoning, answers the questions I had about you, like:

"If this guy for real?"
"Does he actually believe what he types?"

"Something inspired by man, sounds exactly the same - WE CAN DO IT!! YOU CAN DO IT!! JUST TRY YOUR BEST!! HAPPINESS IS THE DaALI F*CKN LAMA!

Only Christianity says - you are sh*t, you can't do sh*t, there is a God and he is offended by al your sh*t, and unless you are given his pardon(completely undeserved) you're in some deep sh*t."


This is funny, because you have no evidence The Bible was inspired by God. It seems you are just preaching, not presenting logical arguments.

"So? you are bare asserting there isn't an afterlife with not reasoning.. and what?"

When did I assert no afterlife? Again, it's clear you use your imagination like crazy when trying to describe reality, which is why you are so deluded (no offense).

"He's 3 persons, but not on the same level as us. He's a Divine being, we are Human beings. both are persons, but 1 is righteous and the other is not."

Prove it, or at least present a logical argument. You have said nothing which contributes to a logical discussion.

"If morals are not absolute then everything you disagree about concerning the Christians God, is irrelevant and not even worth mentioning, because it could still be right."

I'm saying the Christian God is an evil by his own standards (assuming The Bible is true for the sake of argument), not mine. If The Bible is not true, why think the Christian God exists?

Something to ponder over...
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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4/4/2012 4:29:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 8:24:54 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
God can't sin so God can't kill
Guess you haven't read the Bible.

Actually, killing is not a sin but murder is. IE the killing of innocents is a sin.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/4/2012 4:57:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 3:45:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
@ Paradox_7

Who are we to determine the placement of value on any life?

So as a human being, do you not place value on the life you believe God to have? Have you never killed an insect? If you have killed an insect, do you look at yourself as a murderer because you have no right to judge the value of life?

Of course not, but i believe, as a steward of the earth, i've already clarified why. We are created in Gods image, God sent his Son as one of us, and we have souls, whereas animals, bugs, bacteria do not.

But to continue this heirarchy - above us even more so then us above other creatures, is God.


I do not see The Bible as a book which has very much valuable information about objective existence within it, so what the book says doesn't appeal to me.

Then why are you here? why are you even entering into a dsicussion with me concerning the God of the bible?
It appeals to the majority, and cannot be successfully refuted by anyone.. if it had, it would be burried along with the 'flat world' theory; but here we are, Christianity the same and just as strong as ever, science, continually changing, and gradually intersecting to a paralell with Christianity.


If you were lonely, would you create termites to have personal relationships with? No, you would try to make something similar to yourself (even The Bible says man was created in his image). If God created us because he was lonely and wanted to have relationships with us, he wouldn't put us on the level of termites so your analogy doesn't really fit.

Who says he was lonely? God is 3 in 1. He had all the company he wanted, but similar to a carpenter, he enjoys making(building) things. he made us to glorify himself, not for company.

he didn't place us on the same level as termites, but in comparison to him, we're even less then termites. Analogy fits just fine.


We don't know he exists though, so if I'm going to waste my time worshiping an imaginary friend then it better be worth it.

Thats fine, then don't believe in him.. doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

And the whole wasting time bs; you don't need to be a monk to worship God.

You and I probably live very similar lives.. the only difference, is i belive in Christ, and you believe in nothing. correct?

Bare Assertion. Also, if God didn't want us to "reject" him he should have proved he existed. Tough luck for him :)

Lol actually it's tough luck for you. if you revealed yourself for centuries and made it very plain to see, you are in control; you might take a different approach after a while.. kinda like: I choose you to believe, you, you, annnd you - the rest of you can go f*ck yourselves. He's probably watching you right now, laughing his a$$ off with all the angels, saying; "can you believe these people!?" lmao..

I don't care if it's certain, I only care if it's logical. Why would God kill instead of cure? If it has to do with population control or something, why did he create so many of us? Is this God moronic?

No, you only care if it's logical to you.. logic is subjective it seems.

population control?? hahaha.

i have no idea bro, but i'll tell you what - even if you knew why he does what he does, would that even matter? All that you say looks great in writting, but in practice and in reality, your argument cannot be taken seriously.


What does your idea that my idea doesn't matter, matter? In all reality, what humans think and feel matters.

I agree, it does matter, but why? I can answer that. can you?

If I'm expected to believe something exists, I'm owed explanations and proofs. Anyone who believes something without explanations/ evidence is a gullible fool... It's clear where you stand (hence, why you believe in God).

According to you, but we are not in your world, and the laws that are set in place are unwavering in your opinion of them .

You are almost right, except the criteria for proof/evidence i require, has been satisfied. I wish to be as humble about my existance as possible.. i don't control anything.. i could die in 10 minutes in some rediculous way. I could get fired do to company down sizing, i could contract some air-borne virus; any point in time could be my last here. If i live until i am 100, i am gonna trip out at how fast everything went by.. Oh i seek f*ckin evidence alright, I ache for understanding..

I've weighed many arguments, and nothing come close to Christianity, and its explanation of our existance.


People who have had hallucinations and misfirings of neurons in their brain doesn't = People who have had God revealed to them. Countless people claim to have been abducted by aliens and seen Big Foot, does this mean that every crazy experience someone had, was actually interpreted correctly?

Your absolutely right imo. I haven't seen God, i haven't literally heard his voice, and i have hardly improved as a person...lol
I've felt him, i've been able to recognize his guidance at times. i've been in desperate need of advice, and found it right in front of me (through scripture) to many times to count.

Alien abductions i have reason to believe in. just not the type of alien you might be thinking of.

You haven't presented one good argument, I'm not convinced.

lol ok? i'm not seeking to convince you, i seek to oppose you.

Skepticism means everything when it comes to gaining knowledge, imagine if people weren't skeptical about the Earth being flat... The fact you don't adhere to this line of reasoning, answers the questions I had about you, like:

Man you just take the words right out of my mouth. You are not a true skeptic - as i never here any skepticism about most of your own arguments.. you always argue the same the thing.

I am very skeptical about many things, for ex:

when i'm at the clinic picking out what kind of indica imma blaze later; the budtenders always try to push a few top shelf nugs on me; "It's the best we've got! only 75 an 1/8!" yeeaaah-NO.. it's usually better just picking for myself.

My parents always refer music and shows to me.. i hate almost all of them! lol
(just like they disapprove of most my preferences as well)


This is funny, because you have no evidence The Bible was inspired by God. It seems you are just preaching, not presenting logical arguments.

I do, just not the evidence you want.

When did I assert no afterlife? Again, it's clear you use your imagination like crazy when trying to describe reality, which is why you are so deluded (no offense).

You have before nig, don't play dumb.

As far as reality goes, you have no idea what you're talking about.. reality does not coincide with any of your arguments. Especially love, and preference.. the whole chemical reactions argument.

Prove it, or at least present a logical argument. You have said nothing which contributes to a logical discussion.

where's the fun in that?

Look, we are never going to convince you, and if God hadn't specifically chosen us (who knows why us) we would be making the same arguments as you, fighting against the truth.

I'm saying the Christian God is an evil by his own standards (assuming The Bible is true for the sake of argument), not mine. If The Bible is not true, why think the Christian God exists?

Something to ponder over...

If the bible isn't true, then Christianity crumbles.

So far no one has come close to proving it inaccurate. none worth mentioning anyway.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/4/2012 5:18:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Paradox_7

"You and I probably live very similar lives.. the only difference, is i belive in Christ, and you believe in nothing. correct?"

If I believed in nothing, how could I type coherent words on my keyboard? If I believed in nothing, I wouldn't believe in keyboards, computers, you, or even myself. Therefore, the fact that I'm talking to you proves I believe in many things.

He's probably watching you right now, laughing his a$$ off with all the angels, saying; "can you believe these people!?" lmao..

And I'm laughing at you, because you probably actually believe that lol

even if you knew why he does what he does, would that even matter?

I didn't ask you to know, I asked you to come up with a logical reason. You do know what logic is, right?

"I wish to be as humble about my existance as possible.."

You told me the creator of the universe has revealed himself to you and a few others but not everybody, and those who reject him perish while you lay in paradise. This is the most arrogant belief system possible, you are not anywhere near close to humble in your existence.

"I've weighed many arguments, and nothing come close to Christianity, and its explanation of our existance."

I've read those arguments too, and nothing in them comes close to explaining existence (how it really most likely is).

I've felt him, i've been able to recognize his guidance at times.

That's it? I had those feelings all the time when I was a teenager (and a Christian)...It's clearly you just interpreting reality wrong, trust me.

"lol ok? i'm not seeking to convince you, i seek to oppose you."

Oppose what? My only claim is that Theists haven't their burden as far as presenting convincing evidence for the existence of God is concerned, the only way to oppose me, would be to show convincing evidence lol

"You are not a true skeptic - as i never here any skepticism about most of your own arguments.. you always argue the same the thing."

The fact that I don't buy your BS proves I'm a true skeptic.

"I do, just not the evidence you want."

You mean solid evidence?

"As far as reality goes, you have no idea what you're talking about.. reality does not coincide with any of your arguments. Especially love, and preference.. the whole chemical reactions argument."


Love is a chemical reaction, this it not an argument but scientific fact.

"Look, we are never going to convince you, and if God hadn't specifically chosen us (who knows why us) we would be making the same arguments as you, fighting against the truth."

When I believed in God he "revealed" himself to me all the time, you are just interpreting reality wrong. Hopefully you get over the delusion soon, like I did a long time ago.

"If the bible isn't true, then Christianity crumbles.

So far no one has come close to proving it inaccurate. none worth mentioning anyway."


Life proves it inaccurate. Adam and Eve, virgin births, turning water into wine, walking on water, serpents talking ect. defies Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. The Bible defies the way reality really is.
Paradox_7
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4/5/2012 7:46:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 5:18:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
@ Paradox_7

If I believed in nothing, how could I type coherent words on my keyboard? If I believed in nothing, I wouldn't believe in keyboards, computers, you, or even myself. Therefore, the fact that I'm talking to you proves I believe in many things.

This is funny. You can believe somthing, and not believe IN it. You believe keyboards exist, but your beliefs are not of keyboards.

The fact you are talking to me has nothing to do with wether or not you believe IN somthing.

I believe there is many types of exotic weed in the world, but i do not believe IN exotic weed.

I believe IN God because he's made my spirit live. You believe IN science because it makes you feel like you achevied something on your own as a person.

You understand?

And I'm laughing at you, because you probably actually believe that lol

No, but its a funny thing to picture.. you goin to hell and all that isn't funny though.. You're probably a chill guy with similar likes and dislikes, as I; I don't want you to go to hell.

I didn't ask you to know, I asked you to come up with a logical reason. You do know what logic is, right?

Yes, i know what logic is d*ck.. lol

My point, is that even if i can present a logical set of reasons, you will not consider them to be so, and your reasons i will not consider either.. have you seen anyone (of your caliber or mine) ever admit defeat?


You told me the creator of the universe has revealed himself to you and a few others but not everybody, and those who reject him perish while you lay in paradise. This is the most arrogant belief system possible, you are not anywhere near close to humble in your existence.

Well so far, those 'few' are about 2 billion people.. so it's not so bad lol
Now, you atheists seem to avoid this critical factor in our beliefs... are you ready?

I have no idea why he chose me!! By his standards i am sh*t.. by man's standards i can be an a**hole a lot of the time.. I don't deserve to have his mercy, and because of that, i am only to be gracious and humble.. after all it was by his grace that i was chosen, not because of anything i've done.

I've read those arguments too, and nothing in them comes close to explaining existence (how it really most likely is).

It all falls down to what you consider to be proof or not. If you mean it has to be undeniable then almost evrything we 'think' we know can be reversed, if you mean the most likely, then it's still untouched.

The reason why you few deny God's existance is because you cannot start from the beginning and follow the logic from there without irrelevant tangents like unicorns and harry potter..

That's it? I had those feelings all the time when I was a teenager (and a Christian)...It's clearly you just interpreting reality wrong, trust me.

If you did, then you will be drawn back to Christ. You either are a Christian, or you never were. Clearly you are in denial.

Oppose what? My only claim is that Theists haven't their burden as far as presenting convincing evidence for the existence of God is concerned, the only way to oppose me, would be to show convincing evidence lol

Oppose your 'bare assertions'. My claim is that we don't have any burden. We don't owe you any explanation, and neither does God! so how about you get off your little pedastal, and keep tryn to figure stuff out on your own - and you will fail.

The fact that I don't buy your BS proves I'm a true skeptic.

No it proves your a bigot.

Love is a chemical reaction, this it not an argument but scientific fact.

No, the effect, is a chemical reaction; Love is the cause.. so what is love?

When I believed in God he "revealed" himself to me all the time, you are just interpreting reality wrong. Hopefully you get over the delusion soon, like I did a long time ago.

I'd like to get an example of God's revelation to you - go for it.

Life proves it inaccurate. Adam and Eve, virgin births, turning water into wine, walking on water, serpents talking ect. defies Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. The Bible defies the way reality really is.

God tends to do that sort of stuff. Don't forget the talking donkey though (Num. 22:28)

The bible defies your little safe zone of reality.

So you typically think that the billions of believers are all complete morons, who cannot possibly understand all the research you've done, right?

Got some news for you - we've done the research too, and it take more faith to believe in that then our 'imaginary sky-person'.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/5/2012 8:18:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/5/2012 7:46:57 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/4/2012 5:18:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
@ Paradox_7

If I believed in nothing, how could I type coherent words on my keyboard? If I believed in nothing, I wouldn't believe in keyboards, computers, you, or even myself. Therefore, the fact that I'm talking to you proves I believe in many things.

This is funny. You can believe somthing, and not believe IN it. You believe keyboards exist, but your beliefs are not of keyboards.

The fact you are talking to me has nothing to do with wether or not you believe IN somthing.

I believe there is many types of exotic weed in the world, but i do not believe IN exotic weed.

I believe IN God because he's made my spirit live. You believe IN science because it makes you feel like you achevied something on your own as a person.

You understand?

And I'm laughing at you, because you probably actually believe that lol

No, but its a funny thing to picture.. you goin to hell and all that isn't funny though.. You're probably a chill guy with similar likes and dislikes, as I; I don't want you to go to hell.

I didn't ask you to know, I asked you to come up with a logical reason. You do know what logic is, right?

Yes, i know what logic is d*ck.. lol

My point, is that even if i can present a logical set of reasons, you will not consider them to be so, and your reasons i will not consider either.. have you seen anyone (of your caliber or mine) ever admit defeat?


You told me the creator of the universe has revealed himself to you and a few others but not everybody, and those who reject him perish while you lay in paradise. This is the most arrogant belief system possible, you are not anywhere near close to humble in your existence.

Well so far, those 'few' are about 2 billion people.. so it's not so bad lol
Now, you atheists seem to avoid this critical factor in our beliefs... are you ready?

I have no idea why he chose me!! By his standards i am sh*t.. by man's standards i can be an a**hole a lot of the time.. I don't deserve to have his mercy, and because of that, i am only to be gracious and humble.. after all it was by his grace that i was chosen, not because of anything i've done.

I've read those arguments too, and nothing in them comes close to explaining existence (how it really most likely is).

It all falls down to what you consider to be proof or not. If you mean it has to be undeniable then almost evrything we 'think' we know can be reversed, if you mean the most likely, then it's still untouched.

The reason why you few deny God's existance is because you cannot start from the beginning and follow the logic from there without irrelevant tangents like unicorns and harry potter..

That's it? I had those feelings all the time when I was a teenager (and a Christian)...It's clearly you just interpreting reality wrong, trust me.

If you did, then you will be drawn back to Christ. You either are a Christian, or you never were. Clearly you are in denial.

Oppose what? My only claim is that Theists haven't their burden as far as presenting convincing evidence for the existence of God is concerned, the only way to oppose me, would be to show convincing evidence lol

Oppose your 'bare assertions'. My claim is that we don't have any burden. We don't owe you any explanation, and neither does God! so how about you get off your little pedastal, and keep tryn to figure stuff out on your own - and you will fail.

The fact that I don't buy your BS proves I'm a true skeptic.

No it proves your a bigot.

Love is a chemical reaction, this it not an argument but scientific fact.

No, the effect, is a chemical reaction; Love is the cause.. so what is love?

When I believed in God he "revealed" himself to me all the time, you are just interpreting reality wrong. Hopefully you get over the delusion soon, like I did a long time ago.

I'd like to get an example of God's revelation to you - go for it.

Life proves it inaccurate. Adam and Eve, virgin births, turning water into wine, walking on water, serpents talking ect. defies Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. The Bible defies the way reality really is.

God tends to do that sort of stuff. Don't forget the talking donkey though (Num. 22:28)

The bible defies your little safe zone of reality.

So you typically think that the billions of believers are all complete morons, who cannot possibly understand all the research you've done, right?

Got some news for you - we've done the research too, and it take more faith to believe in that then our 'imaginary sky-person'.

"So you typically think that the billions of believers are all complete morons, who cannot possibly understand all the research you've done, right?"


Ad Populum Fallacy. Can you present your own argument, or is your stance simply going to be that since a lot of people believe X, that X must be true?

"I believe IN God because he's made my spirit live. You believe IN science because it makes you feel like you achevied something on your own as a person.

You understand?"



First you say I believe in nothing, now you say I believe in science. Which claim to do with to be held to?

"My point, is that even if i can present a logical set of reasons, you will not consider them to be so, and your reasons i will not consider either.. have you seen anyone (of your caliber or mine) ever admit defeat?"

Personal bias does not get in the way of determining who wins a debate as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem admitting William Lane Craig beat Christopher Hitchens in their debate (even though Hitchens was more entertaining).

If you present a logical argument I cannot logically refute, then I will condede the point.

"Well so far, those 'few' are about 2 billion people.. so it's not so bad lol
Now, you atheists seem to avoid this critical factor in our beliefs... are you ready?

I have no idea why he chose me!! By his standards i am sh*t.. by man's standards i can be an a**hole a lot of the time.. I don't deserve to have his mercy, and because of that, i am only to be gracious and humble.. after all it was by his grace that i was chosen, not because of anything i've done."


I told you, I was chosen to a long time ago. God helped me through many problems I had when I was a teenager and revealed himself to me using subtle hints and guided me through things. The problem is God wasn't really helping me, it was me interpreting my reality wrong because I was attributing the good things in my life to God and not the bad and putting him in a bias light.

"The reason why you few deny God's existance is because you cannot start from the beginning and follow the logic from there without irrelevant tangents like unicorns and harry potter.."

This is a Bare Assertion fallacy. The theistic arguments are not persuasive, and most Christians believe out of faith and have never heard of things like the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Also, saying "you few" keeps implying an ad populum.

I believe the only reason people believe in God is to deny their mortal being, to pretend to always have someone there, and to try to make sense out of an existence which doesn't care about us (you can't reason with gravity to stop pulling an asteroid towards us for example).

I may be wrong, but I believe God is the perfect crutch for human society and it's no shock that most of the population would subscribe to this belief. This doesn't mean it's true, or that there is any good reason to believe it is true.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/5/2012 8:28:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/5/2012 7:46:57 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/4/2012 5:18:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
@ Paradox_7

If I believed in nothing, how could I type coherent words on my keyboard? If I believed in nothing, I wouldn't believe in keyboards, computers, you, or even myself. Therefore, the fact that I'm talking to you proves I believe in many things.

This is funny. You can believe somthing, and not believe IN it. You believe keyboards exist, but your beliefs are not of keyboards.

The fact you are talking to me has nothing to do with wether or not you believe IN somthing.

I believe there is many types of exotic weed in the world, but i do not believe IN exotic weed.

I believe IN God because he's made my spirit live. You believe IN science because it makes you feel like you achevied something on your own as a person.

You understand?

And I'm laughing at you, because you probably actually believe that lol

No, but its a funny thing to picture.. you goin to hell and all that isn't funny though.. You're probably a chill guy with similar likes and dislikes, as I; I don't want you to go to hell.

I didn't ask you to know, I asked you to come up with a logical reason. You do know what logic is, right?

Yes, i know what logic is d*ck.. lol

My point, is that even if i can present a logical set of reasons, you will not consider them to be so, and your reasons i will not consider either.. have you seen anyone (of your caliber or mine) ever admit defeat?


You told me the creator of the universe has revealed himself to you and a few others but not everybody, and those who reject him perish while you lay in paradise. This is the most arrogant belief system possible, you are not anywhere near close to humble in your existence.

Well so far, those 'few' are about 2 billion people.. so it's not so bad lol
Now, you atheists seem to avoid this critical factor in our beliefs... are you ready?

I have no idea why he chose me!! By his standards i am sh*t.. by man's standards i can be an a**hole a lot of the time.. I don't deserve to have his mercy, and because of that, i am only to be gracious and humble.. after all it was by his grace that i was chosen, not because of anything i've done.

I've read those arguments too, and nothing in them comes close to explaining existence (how it really most likely is).

It all falls down to what you consider to be proof or not. If you mean it has to be undeniable then almost evrything we 'think' we know can be reversed, if you mean the most likely, then it's still untouched.

The reason why you few deny God's existance is because you cannot start from the beginning and follow the logic from there without irrelevant tangents like unicorns and harry potter..

That's it? I had those feelings all the time when I was a teenager (and a Christian)...It's clearly you just interpreting reality wrong, trust me.

If you did, then you will be drawn back to Christ. You either are a Christian, or you never were. Clearly you are in denial.

Oppose what? My only claim is that Theists haven't their burden as far as presenting convincing evidence for the existence of God is concerned, the only way to oppose me, would be to show convincing evidence lol

Oppose your 'bare assertions'. My claim is that we don't have any burden. We don't owe you any explanation, and neither does God! so how about you get off your little pedastal, and keep tryn to figure stuff out on your own - and you will fail.

The fact that I don't buy your BS proves I'm a true skeptic.

No it proves your a bigot.

Love is a chemical reaction, this it not an argument but scientific fact.

No, the effect, is a chemical reaction; Love is the cause.. so what is love?

When I believed in God he "revealed" himself to me all the time, you are just interpreting reality wrong. Hopefully you get over the delusion soon, like I did a long time ago.

I'd like to get an example of God's revelation to you - go for it.

Life proves it inaccurate. Adam and Eve, virgin births, turning water into wine, walking on water, serpents talking ect. defies Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. The Bible defies the way reality really is.

God tends to do that sort of stuff. Don't forget the talking donkey though (Num. 22:28)

The bible defies your little safe zone of reality.

So you typically think that the billions of believers are all complete morons, who cannot possibly understand all the research you've done, right?

Got some news for you - we've done the research too, and it take more faith to believe in that then our 'imaginary sky-person'.

"My claim is that we don't have any burden. We don't owe you any explanation, and neither does God! so how about you get off your little pedastal, and keep tryn to figure stuff out on your own - and you will fail."

I've already figured out enough to know, God existing is unlikely.

"No it proves your a bigot."

I'm not a bigot, I have nothing against religious people, I just believe they are wrong.

"No, the effect, is a chemical reaction; Love is the cause.. so what is love?"


That makes no sense, that's like saying the images on a screen are the cause of the projector. We know the chemical reaction is the cause because the hormones which produce feelings associated with love can be reproduced, and when injected as external stimulus into a subject, feelings of love appear. This would be impossible if love was the cause of the chemical reactions.