Total Posts:26|Showing Posts:1-26
Jump to topic:

Question about God's Omnipotence

Charles0103
Posts: 523
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 6:49:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.

definitions =/= reality. Language is descriptive, not prescriptive, of the world.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 6:51:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 6:49:30 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.

definitions =/= reality. Language is descriptive, not prescriptive, of the world.

*slots spin* *three sevens*

Congratulations!!
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 7:24:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

God cannot do the logically impossible and I will prove it.

Lets take a classic problem. The problem of evil. So why does God create so much pain in the world?

Some say free will, others say to create a test for people.

Well, wouldn't an omnipotent being be able to eliminate evil without violating free will and keep the experience on earth a test?

So therefore, God cannot do all imaginable things.
KILLUMINATI
Posts: 10
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

The Bible never claims that God can do all things. The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do. The Bible says that God cannot commit sin. God cannot lie. Biblical omnipotence does not mean that God can do all things. God cannot do anything that is contrary to His character. God can do anything that He determines to do. This is a true meaning of omnipotence the ability to do anything that one sets out to do.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 8:22:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?


God, as portrayed in the bible, never does meaningless things. All his works have merit, and all work out for his Good.

we have to recognize, when even considering the possibility of the 'Christian' God that we must assume, he is the ultimate logic and reason. We have a very diluted version, of his likeness, and most of his actions and words can be very difficult to comprehend.

However, his omnipotence is limited to his Holiness. He cannot sin, and cannot do evil or meaningless things. These questions like the unliftable rock, are false dilemas, and cannot be seriously considered.

If it were to have a purpose that God wished to establish - then yes he could make a squared circle, or make 2 + 2 = 5.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/3/2012 10:21:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hypothetical guy here:

If God existed, he wouldn't need to be Omnipotent.

He would only need the ability to create universes (or even just one), their laws (evolution, thermodynamics, gravity, ect.) and create life on Earth (either spontaneously or by causing the spark of abiogenesis).

Essentially anyone can be the God of a computer simulation of life, right?

He wouldn't need to be able to make 2 + 2 = 5, because that's just arbitrary nonsense.

The problem is, we don't need God to do these things. I haven't yet been convinced it can't happen naturally, though no-one can yet explain how.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 12:14:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?
...
So, what do you think?

It just depends which kind of god you are talking about.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 12:17:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
The Bible never claims that God can do all things.

"With god, all things are possible."

The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do.

Sure, but that's not evidence that it doesn't also say the opposite. It contradicts almost everything it says.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 3:57:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

God is very powerful. From our point of view, God can do everything that we can imagine, with a simple command. That is why we say, God can do everything.

However I don't have a problem with the statement, it is not the correct concept which can withstand logical scrutiny. You have to insert a clause that God cannot do illogical things. Then you have to add that God will not do evil things, or anything which is incompatible with his honor and glory.

The correct concept taught to us in religious books is, God has complete control over everything.

The Holy Quran
3:189 To Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; and Allah hath power over all things.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
KILLUMINATI
Posts: 10
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 9:44:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 12:17:38 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
The Bible never claims that God can do all things.

"With god, all things are possible."

The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do.

Sure, but that's not evidence that it doesn't also say the opposite. It contradicts almost everything it says.

In what way? Please explain?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 11:37:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 9:44:35 AM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
At 4/4/2012 12:17:38 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do.

Sure, but that's not evidence that it doesn't also say the opposite. It contradicts almost everything it says.

In what way? Please explain?

In what way? By saying the opposite.

The bible says nobody can look on god and live, but that somebody looked on god and lived. It says he is merciful, but tortures people forever. It says he is omnipresent, but rides columns of flame to get down from heaven. It says he can do anything, but can't defeat iron chariots. And on and on.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 1:15:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

I see God as defining logic in His nature, not being something 'outside' of Him but instead originating from Him.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 1:27:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

At least at the moment, I don't think that God can do logically impossible things. That statement in itself is a little misleading, because it makes it sound like I'm saying that an omnipotent being can't do something, but I don't think that logically impossible "things" are actually things in anything more than a rhetorical sense in the first place, and phrases like "creating square circles" are just nonsensical combinations of words that couldn't represent any state of events. Or something like that, not entirely sure.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 4:42:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.
You mean like how quantum superposition in the SAME way is not bound by the nature of existence and so it does not exist? Uh oh!

God is not bound by logic, ergo He can do the undoable; He can make an effect with no cause; He can be in 2 states mutually exclusive states simultaneously. http://en.wikipedia.org...
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
IFLYHIGH
Posts: 5,223
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/4/2012 10:13:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:42:00 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.
You mean like how quantum superposition in the SAME way is not bound by the nature of existence and so it does not exist? Uh oh!

God is not bound by logic, ergo He can do the undoable; He can make an effect with no cause; He can be in 2 states mutually exclusive states simultaneously. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Yeah, I had already wondered about that once. If you are referring to the multiverse theory, then any entity can exist in 2 seperate universes simultaneously. For every cause, every possible effect happens in different a different universe. If you weren't talking about the multiverse theory, then I have no clue...
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/5/2012 12:03:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALL god(s) are capable of doing whatever comes in to the fanciful minds and fanciful imaginations of those that perpetrate that human concept in word or written text!

Reality however is somewhat different!
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/5/2012 12:21:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 10:13:37 PM, IFLYHIGH wrote:
Yeah, I had already wondered about that once. If you are referring to the multiverse theory, then any entity can exist in 2 seperate universes simultaneously. For every cause, every possible effect happens in different a different universe. If you weren't talking about the multiverse theory, then I have no clue...
Not talking about the multiverse theory. I am talking about quantum superposition.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 7:06:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 6:49:30 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.

definitions =/= reality. Language is descriptive, not prescriptive, of the world.

The Fool: did I hear that correctly !! 80
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 7:16:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 1:15:43 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

I see God as defining logic in His nature, not being something 'outside' of Him but instead originating from Him.

That disables any possibity for any logical argument about God. Including that the truth about the statement you just made. Because that would be a logical relation.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 7:20:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 4:42:00 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/3/2012 6:46:32 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If God is not bound by the nature of existence then he is, by definition, non-existent.
You mean like how quantum superposition in the SAME way is not bound by the nature of existence and so it does not exist? Uh oh!

God is not bound by logic, ergo He can do the undoable; He can make an effect with no cause; He can be in 2 states mutually exclusive states simultaneously. http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Fool: Nonsense, for then the unboable would be doeable now wouldn't it.
Seconly and affect is define by it being caused. So it would be an effect now would it. Quantum theory are theories, we might have a complete better one tommorow. Hope fully soon because there is a lot of holes in it.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 8:36:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 5:18:25 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
This is directed mostly towards my fellow theists, but I'd love to hear some imput from my atheist and agnostic friends, as well.

Can God do the logically impossible, as Rene Descartes thought? Can he make two plus two equal five, square circles, etc.

Or is God bound to the laws of logic like Thomas Aquinas says?

I guess this ties back to the Paradox of the Stone, in a way.
If God can do the logically impossible, then He could make a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift, yet be able to lift it. That might be a condradiction, but couldn't an omnipotent God work outside of contradictions?

Or, if you use Aquinas's definition of omnipotence, God couldn't create a stone that's heavier than He could lift simply because that would be logically impossible.

So, what do you think?

I think that God is bound by the laws of logic. This is not to say that God has limitations for His abilities. But God created the laws of logic. Working within the laws of logic would be a limitation that He chose to work within. Just like God chose to become a man and temporarily give up certain things, in the flesh, that made Him God.

For example, a triangle, by definition, has three sides and three corners. As such, God could not create a square triangle because squares, by definition, have four sides and four corners. Just like God could not create a boulder so large He couldn't lift it because theoretically any boulder that He could create, He could lift.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 8:37:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/3/2012 10:21:43 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Hypothetical guy here:

If God existed, he wouldn't need to be Omnipotent.

He would only need the ability to create universes (or even just one), their laws (evolution, thermodynamics, gravity, ect.) and create life on Earth (either spontaneously or by causing the spark of abiogenesis).

Essentially anyone can be the God of a computer simulation of life, right?

He wouldn't need to be able to make 2 + 2 = 5, because that's just arbitrary nonsense.

The problem is, we don't need God to do these things. I haven't yet been convinced it can't happen naturally, though no-one can yet explain how.

I'm not convinced these things can happen naturally. What up? :D
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 8:46:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/4/2012 12:17:38 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
The Bible never claims that God can do all things.

"With god, all things are possible."

The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do.

Sure, but that's not evidence that it doesn't also say the opposite. It contradicts almost everything it says.

You are taking that verse out of context. The full context can be seen in Matthew 19: 16-30, and Mark 10: 17-31. In the context, the rich young ruler was asking Jesus what he must be do to be saved. The rich young ruler was trusting in his own good works, which does not get anyone into Heaven (Ephesians 2: 8-9). When Jesus asked him to sell everything he had and follow Jesus, he refused and went away sad.

Jesus' full words are "with man, this is impossible but with God, all things are possible." The thing that is impossible for man is salvation, and the "all things" which are possible for God is God's power, which is unlimited. He is not saying He can do absolutely everything, including the irrational or imperfect. Just that the things which are impossible for man are certainly possible for God.

In fact, Luke offers the better rendering of Jesus' words: "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/6/2012 8:53:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/6/2012 8:46:22 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/4/2012 12:17:38 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/3/2012 7:54:57 PM, KILLUMINATI wrote:
The Bible never claims that God can do all things.

"With god, all things are possible."

The Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do.

Sure, but that's not evidence that it doesn't also say the opposite. It contradicts almost everything it says.

You are taking that verse out of context. The full context can be seen in Matthew 19: 16-30, and Mark 10: 17-31. In the context, the rich young ruler was asking Jesus what he must be do to be saved. The rich young ruler was trusting in his own good works, which does not get anyone into Heaven (Ephesians 2: 8-9). When Jesus asked him to sell everything he had and follow Jesus, he refused and went away sad.

Jesus' full words are "with man, this is impossible but with God, all things are possible." The thing that is impossible for man is salvation, and the "all things" which are possible for God is God's power, which is unlimited. He is not saying He can do absolutely everything, including the irrational or imperfect. Just that the things which are impossible for man are certainly possible for God.

In fact, Luke offers the better rendering of Jesus' words: "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

So selling one's posessions and giving to the poor doesn't count as a "good work"?